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  1. #1901
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Owkay, in that case the OT also has 0 stacks, so actually having him help out is 100% pointless aswell Wouldn't you get the 5th stack @ the DFA though and therefor always getting the overload he does right when he lands? (Still not sure if 3rd or 4th tbh)
    I didn't kill it before DFA(3rd overload) but you'll do it before 4th overload (think i had a whole second to spare lol)
    This was done during progress, we didn't kill it with this tactic and yes, OT has 0 stacks.

    Again, i dont recommend doing it, doesn't really add any value besides me shutting my cotank up
    Edit. 10man, so you dont have to guess.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-01-30 at 03:09 PM.

  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Thats your problem, the bolded part, if you keep tanking him you'll get 5 stacks
    Its impossible to get 5 stacks considering the add spawns at 3 stacks and he doesnt do the 5th stack until long after death from above.

    So you are either mistaken/full of shit or you kill the add from 100-0 through the heal in 5 seconds without the death from above extra damage taken debuff.....

    I just dont think it's possible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    I didn't kill it before DFA(3rd overload) but you'll do it before 4th overload (think i had a whole second to spare lol)
    This was done during progress, we didn't kill it with this tactic and yes, OT has 0 stacks.

    Again, i dont recommend doing it, doesn't really add any value besides me shutting my cotank up
    Logs please.

  3. #1903
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Logs please.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/20...alendar/11-13/
    Have fun going trough 329 wipes xD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Its impossible to get 5 stacks considering the add spawns at 3 stacks and he doesnt do the 5th stack until long after death from above.

    So you are either mistaken/full of shit or you kill the add from 100-0 through the heal in 5 seconds without the death from above extra damage taken debuff.....

    I just dont think it's possible.
    Why would i lie about it ? And im not misstaken, nor full of shit
    I havent raided for over a month but normal tactic co tank always have 2 stacks when i come back to taunt, which is ~4 seconds after DFA, so i wouldnt say 5th stack is looong after dfa, shit if you take a 4th overload your risking letting stacks fall off.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-01-30 at 03:18 PM.

  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/20...alendar/11-13/
    Have fun going trough 329 wipes xD

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why would i lie about it ? And im not misstaken, nor full of shit
    I'm gonna go through 329 wipes to prove you are doing something impossible? Ya no. Find the log and I'll believe you. Until then I am willing to bet my account that you are mistaken or full of shit.

  5. #1905
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    I'm gonna go through 329 wipes to prove you are doing something impossible? Ya no. Find the log and I'll believe you. Until then I am willing to bet my account that you are mistaken or full of shit.
    Just cause you couldn't do it doesn't make something impossible lol. Maybe 10vs25 man diff ?
    But i feel the same, im not gonna go trough 329 wipes to find the 2 tries where i did it, dont care that much.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-01-30 at 03:29 PM.

  6. #1906
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Just cause you couldn't do it doesn't make something impossible lol. Maybe 10vs25 man diff ?
    But i feel the same, im not gonna go trough 329 wipes to find the 2 tries where i did it, dont care that much.
    No I'm saying it's impossible because it's impossible. Their health is the EXACT same in 10 and 25 and you are actually at a bigger disadvantage then me because I have more vengeance from the higher auto attack damage in 25 man. You were 569 ilvl on your first kill (which may have been weeks or months from when you accomplished this amazing feat). I was 575 ilvl and full crit build when I got my kill. Like I said, I would not have been anywhere CLOSE to killing it the way you are describing if I had tried.

    I said it before and I'll say it again, I hate being that guy but what you are describing could not and did not happen. But just to be sure (and since I sadly have nothing to do for a few hours) I took 15 minutes and went through the logs you linked.

    I just went through the 108 Heroic Siegecrafter attempts on your logs spread out over 3 months and in not ONE did you take more then 3 stacks in a row to start the fight.

    Sorry man...

  7. #1907
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    No I'm saying it's impossible because it's impossible. Their health is the EXACT same in 10 and 25 and you are actually at a bigger disadvantage then me because I have more vengeance from the higher auto attack damage in 25 man. You were 569 ilvl on your first kill (which may have been weeks or months from when you accomplished this amazing feat). I was 575 ilvl and full crit build when I got my kill. Like I said, I would not have been anywhere CLOSE to killing it the way you are describing if I had tried.

    I said it before and I'll say it again, I hate being that guy but what you are describing could not and did not happen. But just to be sure (and since I sadly have nothing to do for a few hours) I took 15 minutes and went through the logs you linked.

    I just went through the 108 Heroic Siegecrafter attempts on your logs spread out over 3 months and in not ONE did you take more then 3 stacks in a row to start the fight.

    Sorry man...
    I'm not saying it's possible. But do remember that if you're tanking the boss for the 4th (and 5th stack) you'll have a lot more vengeance as instead of sitting on ~200k you'll probably have 3-400k + the extra stack. Might be enough with the nerfs if you pop cds and shit.

  8. #1908
    So, I'm working on Siegecrafter HC and I'm having trouble with killing my add..


    But seriously, I've just switched from Full avoidance to Mastery > Crit. We're only a few bosses deep in heroic progression ( 25m ) and since my guild is pretty casual I want to do my best to remain competitive but ultimately smooth the incoming damage ( hence the change ). Previously I was having no problems in normals parsing high on World of Logs, while staying alive.. Its been a fun patch . I'm pretty resourceful and have been looking around for guides, reading threads and whatnot, but I can't seem to find any concrete advice on how to approach the Mastery>Crit build.

    What I've tried thus far was looking up mastery>crit warriors on Proraiders, and using Simcraft. With Simcraft i'm having it return values on each stat, then plugging them in to AskMrRobot. Would you guys be able to point me to maybe a blogger, or maybe just confirm I'm doing this right before our raid next week.

    *edit* And yeah I haven't swapped the metagem yet. But the gear you see on my armory is all of my mastery/crit gear.
    Last edited by Cyclonus-WOW; 2014-01-30 at 05:49 PM.
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  9. #1909
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebubble View Post
    I'm not saying it's possible. But do remember that if you're tanking the boss for the 4th (and 5th stack) you'll have a lot more vengeance as instead of sitting on ~200k you'll probably have 3-400k + the extra stack. Might be enough with the nerfs if you pop cds and shit.
    I have no doubt it is doable NOW after the nerfs and more gear, I'm saying he didnt do it on progression with a 560 ilvl back in October or November when he is claiming to have done it.

  10. #1910
    Deleted
    Well, only speculation remains at this point, but since I like to play with numbers... Maybe it's possible? Before that, AFAIK, 25 man adds did have more of health (in 10m they had 17.8m, 22.8m in 25m?). I guess part of that disbelief comes from there. I was watching the vid from our first kill and on it, and I dropped the add from 60% to 0% with a GCD to spare, bloodbath instead of avatar and the classic 3 stacks. No saw or fire. With 4 stacks the damage is 33% higher, so you could drop him from 80% to 0% in that burst, Avatar, the increased vengeance, and whatever % you managed to drop him to before the burst... The boss healed the shredder 5% each 5 seconds? In my video, the boss healed the add 2 times, if I had remained near the boss it will have healed him 4 times more (+20%), so it would have started at 80%, more or less... Killed it in october, sorry, don't know the ilvl I had then.

    I don't really want to spark a further discussion of whether he did or not, but it doesn't seem >that< impossible. Looking at the numbers, I >think< I could have done it in a reliable way. It's only speculation at this point, but the numbers doesn't seem that bad? Don't know if there is any actual advantage to it, though.
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2014-01-30 at 06:07 PM.

  11. #1911
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    I don't really want to spark a further discussion of whether he did or not, but it doesn't seem >that< impossible. Looking at the numbers, I >think< I could have done it in a reliable way. It's only speculation at this point, but the numbers doesn't seem that bad? Don't know if there is any actual advantage to it, though.
    Bragging rights clearly.

    Well, as I said before, I thought 4th was the DFA one (or well, i was doubting it) adding the extra time I'd not say Impossible, I will say unreliable, dangerous & difficult as fuck, with little to no added advantage if you pull it off.

    (I'd use the word stupid but that seems a bit harsh )

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Bragging rights clearly.

    Well, as I said before, I thought 4th was the DFA one (or well, i was doubting it) adding the extra time I'd not say Impossible, I will say unreliable, dangerous & difficult as fuck, with little to no added advantage if you pull it off.

    (I'd use the word stupid but that seems a bit harsh )
    I guess....

  13. #1913
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Bragging rights clearly.

    Well, as I said before, I thought 4th was the DFA one (or well, i was doubting it) adding the extra time I'd not say Impossible, I will say unreliable, dangerous & difficult as fuck, with little to no added advantage if you pull it off.

    (I'd use the word stupid but that seems a bit harsh )
    I don't think I understood, why do you say it's not easy to pull off in 10m? You do have the 4th stack for the DfA burst.

  14. #1914
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    I have no doubt it is doable NOW after the nerfs and more gear, I'm saying he didnt do it on progression with a 560 ilvl back in October or November when he is claiming to have done it.
    I never mentioned ilvl or date lol. Your making assumptions to validate your belief that its impossible. Whatever floats your boat i guess.
    My first kill was 8th december in 569 gear.

    We had 3 weeks of not even attempting him due to guild issues ^^
    And to really make it clear since its been brought it up multiple times even after me saying it has no advantage.

    It has no real advantage and doesn't add any value, i did it for the sole purpose of shutting my cotank up who insisted of going with a 4/6 stack tactic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    I just went through the 108 Heroic Siegecrafter attempts on your logs spread out over 3 months and in not ONE did you take more then 3 stacks in a row to start the fight.

    Sorry man...
    Scroll back like 5 pages and you'll see the discussion where i explained how stupid the tactic we used to kill him was, i never went above 4 stacks. I'm amazed we spent 3 months on him tho, sick stuff lol.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-01-31 at 02:07 AM.

  15. #1915
    Quote Originally Posted by kaerthon View Post
    So, I'm working on Siegecrafter HC and I'm having trouble with killing my add..


    But seriously, I've just switched from Full avoidance to Mastery > Crit. We're only a few bosses deep in heroic progression ( 25m ) and since my guild is pretty casual I want to do my best to remain competitive but ultimately smooth the incoming damage ( hence the change ). Previously I was having no problems in normals parsing high on World of Logs, while staying alive.. Its been a fun patch . I'm pretty resourceful and have been looking around for guides, reading threads and whatnot, but I can't seem to find any concrete advice on how to approach the Mastery>Crit build.

    What I've tried thus far was looking up mastery>crit warriors on Proraiders, and using Simcraft. With Simcraft i'm having it return values on each stat, then plugging them in to AskMrRobot. Would you guys be able to point me to maybe a blogger, or maybe just confirm I'm doing this right before our raid next week.

    *edit* And yeah I haven't swapped the metagem yet. But the gear you see on my armory is all of my mastery/crit gear.
    Tank gemming mostly comes down to a combination of what level content you are doing in relation to your gear, how confident you are in your own skills, and how confident you are in your healers' skills. One example is siegecrafter, where you can very easily get way with dps gemming because tank survivability is really only in question at specific points of the fight (electro charge) and that's easily fixed by smart cooldown management. The extreme on the otherside of that is if you were one of those 2nd week of content release ToT progression guilds that got to Ra-den with a 520-530 ilevel and had to stack stamina to deal with the massive amounts of tank damage that he put out. I know its kind of a very situational example, but the point is that it's really up to your discretion with regards how much you think you can get away with. If you, and by extension your healers, feel comfortable with all crit vs all mastery, then there's no reason not to play full crit.
    Last edited by Jetjaguar; 2014-01-31 at 04:52 AM.

  16. #1916
    Deleted
    You can pretty much just blow all cds on the first add, second add should die easily with higher stacks. Then 3rd onwards you can blow the add up in melee instantly with the help from your other tank. You never need to reset stacks, you can let the dpsers get the first charge on pull You can be full parry gemmed, i dont really see point in mastery/crit. Full crit makes you too squishy to make up for the +5% ish up in damage.

    Prot warrior is so OP in siege adds that you shouldnt have problems if you execute it right. A common mistake i see is the addkiller standing ready for the add, then taunting it and trying to kill it.. I just tell them to stop tanking alltogether if theyre so daft trying to kill the add with zero vengeance

    This is 25man, dont know if the add is harder or easier on 10man.

  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    This is 25man, dont know if the add is harder or easier on 10man.
    10H: 17,798,982
    25H: 22,975,288

    So the add has just over 5m more hp on 25H compared to 10H, but you do have more vengeance going into it to make up for it.

  18. #1918
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    You can pretty much just blow all cds on the first add, second add should die easily with higher stacks. Then 3rd onwards you can blow the add up in melee instantly with the help from your other tank. You never need to reset stacks, you can let the dpsers get the first charge on pull You can be full parry gemmed, i dont really see point in mastery/crit. Full crit makes you too squishy to make up for the +5% ish up in damage.

    Prot warrior is so OP in siege adds that you shouldnt have problems if you execute it right. A common mistake i see is the addkiller standing ready for the add, then taunting it and trying to kill it.. I just tell them to stop tanking alltogether if theyre so daft trying to kill the add with zero vengeance

    This is 25man, dont know if the add is harder or easier on 10man.
    How does full crit make you squishy?

  19. #1919
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    How does full crit make you squishy?
    You lose about 35% avoidance? avoidance is RNG sure, but it makes you less squishy.

  20. #1920
    35% avoidance? I think you've overblown it a bit or you've been looking at the % you get before diminishing returns. Using the well known Mastery/Crit build that Fagatha uses versus your warriors build for an example.

    Mastery/Crit build:
    Fagatha

    Dodge: 8.97%
    Parry: 34.09%
    Avoidance: 43.06%
    Block: 26.24%
    Total: 69.3%

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gatha/advanced

    Riposte build:
    Cleaveandrun/Spacebubble

    Dodge: 16.31%
    Parry: 45.34%
    Avoidance: 61.65%
    Block: 19.87%
    Total: 81.62%

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ndrun/advanced

    Avoidance difference: 18.59%
    Avoidance + block diff: 12.32%

    Yes Fagatha is a NElf though your warrior is also a warrior who benefits from Mace spec so I've just left any racials out of it.

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