[5.4] Protection Warrior

[Retsef]

Now I know dodge/parry is the go-to stats for pretty much everything, and I happily tell learner warrior tanks on my realm the same, but I personally keep questioning the validity of going away from mastery when it increases the value of the blocking... If that makes sense?

I think I may have to simcraft this up over the weekend to satisfy myself.

[Octa]

Now I know dodge/parry is the go-to stats for pretty much everything, and I happily tell learner warrior tanks on my realm the same, but I personally keep questioning the validity of going away from mastery when it increases the value of the blocking... If that makes sense?

I think I may have to simcraft this up over the weekend to satisfy myself.

What specifically are you questioning?

[Retsef]

I have a feeling, and its nothing more, that dropping 1-2pc avoidance to increase the value of your blocks will lead to an overall damage intake decrease.


I also know that for all of you pros the SoO boat has sailed, but we are on song for realm 2nd 25m heroic at the moment.

Also, sorry about harping on about old stuff that's been out the theory crafting door almost a tier ago

I'd love some pointers on how to do the maths on deciding these things, or is it just stat changes+simcraft+spreadsheet?

[Deleted]

I have a feeling, and its nothing more, that dropping 1-2pc avoidance to increase the value of your blocks will lead to an overall damage intake decrease.


I also know that for all of you pros the SoO boat has sailed, but we are on song for realm 2nd 25m heroic at the moment.

Also, sorry about harping on about old stuff that's been out the theory crafting door almost a tier ago

I'd love some pointers on how to do the maths on deciding these things, or is it just stat changes+simcraft+spreadsheet?

The math was mostly like this: We tried going heavy avoidance, it was more fun to play, we got great dps (had to get monks heavily nerfed in the process) and had more rage to play with.

The gameplay was better and felt more efficient, logs respalded it and after a time the last mastery guys went away, and thus it was decided that it was the new standard. You see, when you are DPS math tells you do the way to do the maximum dps, so the way to go is clear. When you tank, math tells you the way to do maximum dps, the way to get maximum mitigation, the way to get the less sigma on your mitigation, and something about the effective health you will have. And then, you pick what you want.

You see, mastery lost the war because it was only better in the sigma, and even that got quite unclear at the end. At the ilvls you are right now, I doubt it wins in even that. Don't try to mix parry and mastery at this point, they don't really mix. If there is anything that is meleeing your health 100% to 10% at this point of upgrades, just put 2 stamina trinkets and keep spending that rage.

[Retsef]

Let's for the moment assume your word is gospel (and Im not suggesting it isn't for those who may read this later), how do I go about the process of doing these calculations myself?
Is there a tutorial or guide somewhere on theory crafting?

Admittedly I'm not a math major or anything, but I'm also no deadshit.
I want to start getting some knowledge in prep for WoD, so this is a good opportunity to do that.

[Khorm]

I have a feeling, and its nothing more, that dropping 1-2pc avoidance to increase the value of your blocks will lead to an overall damage intake decrease.


I also know that for all of you pros the SoO boat has sailed, but we are on song for realm 2nd 25m heroic at the moment.

Also, sorry about harping on about old stuff that's been out the theory crafting door almost a tier ago

I'd love some pointers on how to do the maths on deciding these things, or is it just stat changes+simcraft+spreadsheet?

Just let the whiz kids do it and go off their results. They can't tell you what you prefer in playstyle but if the only reason you are doing it for is for a mathematical outcome then just don't.

[Retsef]

Well no, its not just maths that's making me want to change over, but having that justification is nice

I'm a min-max'r from Warhammer 40k as well, and I understand maths vs play style.

The difference is I get the maths for 40k, I don't get the WoW maths yet.

At this point I want to see the difference between the two options, because if its 0.07% the whatever.
If its 5% then I'll be spending some gold ASAP.

[kiaranqilue]

Well no, its not just maths that's making me want to change over, but having that justification is nice

I'm a min-max'r from Warhammer 40k as well, and I understand maths vs play style.

The difference is I get the maths for 40k, I don't get the WoW maths yet.

At this point I want to see the difference between the two options, because if its 0.07% the whatever.
If its 5% then I'll be spending some gold ASAP.

Talk to Collision in these forums, he is thr one behind the warrior simcraft

[Deleted]

Let's for the moment assume your word is gospel (and Im not suggesting it isn't for those who may read this later), how do I go about the process of doing these calculations myself?
Is there a tutorial or guide somewhere on theory crafting?

Admittedly I'm not a math major or anything, but I'm also no deadshit.
I want to start getting some knowledge in prep for WoD, so this is a good opportunity to do that.

You shouldn't take my word as gospel, or anyone. But you were asking about how it came to be standard, and that's how the thing went, mostly. Theck was starting his work with TMI around that time, but I don't think most people went with that to decide. Personally, I was pissed about the beyond horrible DPS we had, so I went with avoidance. It was long known that avoidance reduced more damage than mastery, but also everyone seemed to agree that you will be too spiky with it. If this has been the first tier of the expansion, it may have ended badly, but we could a big %, a lot of rage and so it felt solid, there were no spikes, it was better than mastery and the logs said the same thing. Everyone who tried was happy with results and bum, it's the way to go.

Anyways if you want how this things are done, the most basic theorycrafting can be done with a spreadsheet, it's fairly easy to do, and it will put you in a good direction. Try to get into a spreadsheet the average melee damage you will get with full mastery and full avoidance,for example. It's better to try that before going heavy into http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/07/15...heorycrafting/

[Retsef]

Ah right, so even though Theck is Pally focused he is still our go to guy for warrior maths...
Avoidance is avoidance I suppose

I know collision does lots of warrior maths but I was under the impression he had stepped back to DPS warriors as his focus.

Thanks for that info

[Deleted]

Ah right, so even though Theck is Pally focused he is still our go to guy for warrior maths...
Avoidance is avoidance I suppose

I know collision does lots of warrior maths but I was under the impression he had stepped back to DPS warriors as his focus.

Thanks for that info

No, Theck is not the guy to go, he keeps to paladins. He has done some work before for the other tanks, but not near enough to be the reference for warriors tanks. I gave you the link because it's his theorycrafting 101.

[Eetabee]

Very simple math, but I have no numbers to back up this math.

Avoidance DPS >>>> Mastery DPS (proof is in all logs)
Avoidance DTPS > Mastery DTPS (proof in logs again or spreadsheets if you can find one)
Avoidance Rage Gen > Mastery Rage Gen (avoidance gives rage)
Avoidance spikes > Mastery Spikes (but with more rage you can control this easily)

So avoidance only loses to mastery on one count, being more spiky, but wins on all others. And being more spiky is only bad if you are not that great at managing CDs. We have enough of those to smooth everything out. In addition, when bosses die faster there is less time for people to screw up and wipe. Especially on progression, this is super helpful. For example, the faster you kill siege, the less you have to stress that your belt team will screw up. Or the faster you push Garrosh, the less mechanics you have to deal with.

[Deleted]

Avoidance Rage Gen > Mastery Rage Gen (avoidance gives rage)

Critical blocks also net 10 rage. This comes in handy while tanking multiple mobs when revenge tend to procc all the time even after lower avoidance levels.

Avoidance spikes > Mastery Spikes (but with more rage you can control this easily)

This might be misleading to read, mastery is superior for smoothening the (physical) damage intake. But no encounter is tuned around you having 60% physical damage reduction for x seconds, it's regulary enough to just save up some sblock charges for after a tankswap instead of using them mindlessly to increase the heavy repercussion shield slam damage.

The major issue with a "crit" or mastery heavy build is that avoidance tend to actually net way more %crit. Depending on the itemisation and pieces it can be up to 1.5 times as much per piece, leaving fully warforged avoidance tanks at 50-55% crit and similar crit centered ones at 35-40%. While this is only true for actively tanking due to how vengeance and tanking debuffs work with the +4 upgrades some fights tend to become so short that you'll just prefer to ignore some mechanics and sit through it, gaining more dps in the process.


@Retsef
It's actually pretty simple: think about how often you don't want to hit shield block, check your logs to see how much of your incoming damage is not physical (or blockable but that's not as easy to grasp) and you should get a pretty good idea of how valueable mastery can be compared to avoidance when one helps indirectly versus everything (via granting more rage) while the other can't.

To be honest i don't think the gap is as big as some might want to praise it, most comes down to proper execution (or the lack thereof, thus granting us more vengeance), the real advantage of avoidance is the item distribution. There is absolutely nobody conquering for drops with dodge or parry and that's about it. Both builds work just fine, just don't stick with stamina unless you're fresh out of ToT, ilvl 540 fighting your way through heroic content..

[Retsef]

Thanks for the info. I am sitting at 578/9 or something, so not gearing stam at all lol.

My thought, and I still haven't gotten off my arse to work it out, was basically socket yellow for mastery and reforge dodge to mastery where I don't need it for exp/hit/etc.

I've just actually gone back to full avoidance yesterday, dropped all the mastery back and went to quite reasonable dodge/parry numbers.

[Zipetor]

Thanks for the info. I am sitting at 578/9 or something, so not gearing stam at all lol.

My thought, and I still haven't gotten off my arse to work it out, was basically socket yellow for mastery and reforge dodge to mastery where I don't need it for exp/hit/etc.

I've just actually gone back to full avoidance yesterday, dropped all the mastery back and went to quite reasonable dodge/parry numbers.

You can use Simcraft and calculate damage taken per second and TMI (some measure of how spikey you are). After simming I found that for my character the common advice out there holds true, mastery makes me less spikey but avoidance is better everywhere else. I think most advice over-estimates the difference in rage generation, but avoidance is marginally better.

[Ranei]

i'm sure this has been discussed a bit but i'll never be able to find it in the thread, which trinkets are considered good? i'm running thoks/vial (both heroic) for now and I like it, but what do other people think?

[Deleted]

- Thok is golden.
- Juggernaut if you don't need/want the cooldown reduction. Lots of crit on it (3%+), some heal that won't hurt and some avoidance, it's just a nice package.
- Skeer is okay'ish, it's procc just never lines up with my cooldowns so i can't get the most out of it, but 3 back to back shieldslams with even higher critrate (so more ultimatum proccs) are neat and if you get it to procc before bloodbath+bladestorm it's yummie!
- Rest is situational, fusion core for protectors/galakras, rooks when it's needed (eating annihilates or bloodrage) and a second amplify trinket is also an option if you run a crit/mastery build (adds ~ 2k mastery, same amount of crit damage just lacks the procc which isn't as important due to vengeance in the first place).

[Tighe]

Hey guys

We've started H Malk (25 man) and we are struggling at the moment. The mechanics are causing problems at the start of the fight with some of the raid but I have a few questions related to the tanking end that I would like some advice on.

Following is some comp and background information so that you can understand where the question is coming from. The tanks are a blood DK and me (Prot war), the RL is worried that it's not possible to solo soak in 25 man due to the sheer amount of damage that's going out so we have both tanks soak it and have a rogue with feint and cloak of shadows to reduce some of the damage taken, at the end of the fight we add two shadow priests with immunity to assist in the soak (they tend to be a little lower on the dps in this fight so if they die it's not a guaranteed wipe whereas if the tanks go down it's a wipe). I'm using protectors (heroic 1/4) and Thok's trinket (normal 4/4).

I am running out of rage at the end of the blood rage so I can't get a barrier up at the end, I take one swing and I die. I can't figure out why this is happening. I make sure that I go into the blood rage with a full rage bar and I have a macro that drops the following: trinket, last stand, potion of mountains, demo banner. I'm saving my shield wall until the second half of the blood rage as the trinket and the rest of my buffs have dropped off by then.

My logs are http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...8&end=14227505

Is there something else that I can do or some other buffs that I can call for from my dps to get me through this phase. I personally think that if i was solo tanking it it might be easier than double tanking it because once I got to high rage in a previous attempt and I was getting 1.1 million shield barriers at the end of the phase.

People have suggested that it's better to go with a the four piece on this boss. Is that right? I would lose a lot of stamina and strenght (parry) because I can't get the 4 piece in heroic gear but this might be the last resort.

Any comments will be appreciated.

[Ashenia]

I do solo tank it and I'm pretty sure a lot of people does on 25man too. I can only say that I relay on: SW->Rook with Demo, Banner, LS to fill in with PS, Ironbark externals. Monk with Zen Meditation (any spec) at start helps a lot, never had a major issue with it (Smoke Bomb, Barrier, HoS (Paladin can cover whole duration alone with 2), Rogue can help out too of course). Also never when 4set on this fight always avoidance set with Thok/Rook trinkets.

Make sure you start strong and use SW glyph as you should aim only for 1 Blood Rage. Anyway, it was mentioned few times already in this topic before, not much to add to be fair.

[Tighe]

Thanks for the feedback. Do you have any idea why I could be getting rage starved? I run out towards the end of the fight and don't have enough for a shield barrier at full 60 rage. I'm hoping I'm missing something simple otherwise the only reason I can think of would have something to do with my rotation and that's not a good sign.