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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by adorich View Post
    Delaying LFG would in no way fix the actual issues of LFG i.e. afking, bad player attitudes/behavior. You'd be ostracizing a group of Wow players simply because they've chosen to play Wow differently than you. Additionally, if there are potential raiders in LFG, don't you think they'd jump into a raiding guild to avoid the issues of LFG and get better gear? You don't need a delay on LFG content for that to happen.
    I think it was Preach who mentioned that a delayed LFR system would help the state of the game.

    I would have to agree with Preach. It would help to add in a sense of "mystery" to PvE raiding that is pretty much non-existent now. I've raided since Vanilla and I enjoyed the sense of progress I got as my raid team moved onto new content. I think that same air of mystery encouraged people to look into raiding (it's partially what encouraged me to) and it'll be a good way to hook in newer players to "normal" raid. LFR will serve primarily as a way for everyone to experience the content and not as the "loot piñata" that it's frequently referred to as now.

    Delayed LFR may not fix the issues of poor raiding, but hopefully it'll spark a bigger interest in raiding. Flex raiding and easier normal raids will be tasked to do the rest and become a good tool to teach people how to raid.

  2. #42
    How to fix it? Tell Blizzard to stop being lazy, and implement things to do for players that "don't raid" or don't play a lot THAT ISN'T A RAID.

    Create content with progression paths elsewhere, for people that may not play a lot.


    Mind blowing, I know.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I think it was Preach who mentioned that a delayed LFR system would help the state of the game.

    I would have to agree with Preach. It would help to add in a sense of "mystery" to PvE raiding that is pretty much non-existent now. I've raided since Vanilla and I enjoyed the sense of progress I got as my raid team moved onto new content. I think that same air of mystery encouraged people to look into raiding (it's partially what encouraged me to) and it'll be a good way to hook in newer players to "normal" raid. LFR will serve primarily as a way for everyone to experience the content and not as the "loot piñata" that it's frequently referred to as now.

    Delayed LFR may not fix the issues of poor raiding, but hopefully it'll spark a bigger interest in raiding. Flex raiding and easier normal raids will be tasked to do the rest and become a good tool to teach people how to raid.
    Get a grip.

    You can have mystery, or you can have PTR and no mystery and way fewer boss bugs.

    There's never going to be "mystery" in raiding again in WoW. Find something else to like about it.

  4. #44
    Do LFR the first week or two of a new tier and you'll find that you end up with a RL by default. It's usually not the person who has the title, but you have one. After the first few wipes chase the impatient, the trolls, and the true drooling morons out of the raid, you have a mix of raiders and casual players who actually want to play the game and kill the bosses. One of those will explain things and get the group on track. Once most of the serious raiders are done with LFR and casual players understand the fights well enough to carry the AFKers and trolls, that's when LFR becomes truly unbearable.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Get a grip.

    You can have mystery, or you can have PTR and no mystery and way fewer boss bugs.

    There's never going to be "mystery" in raiding again in WoW. Find something else to like about it.
    I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Datamining and PTR doesn't kill the mystery you find in new content. I watched videos of guilds in PTR working on Horridon and Iron Qon, and it still felt completely fresh when our guild went in and worked on it ourselves. If anything, I would consider those teasers - get a glimpse of what to expect. Moreover, the population of people who actually participate and keep up with PTR news is very small. Also, IIRC we've had PTR testing since the early days of WoW - don't think datamined information dispelling any mystery was ever an issue.

    Perhaps mystery is the wrong word. People need an incentive to raid normals. New players come into the game, run LFRs and then run out of (PvE) things to do because in their mind they already cleared all the content. Why bother raiding normals if it's just harder versions of what they already did. I'm a very casual console player and there are very few games I beat on Normal mode and then have the desire to go back and play it again on Hard. However, if there was an incentive for players (especially newer ones) to actually check out normal modes, I think we'd see an increase in raiding activity. People have had a taste of raiding, maybe if the instant-gratification system that LFR currently is were to be modified, PvE would begin seeing a shift away from "raiding" being LFR and closer to what pre-LFR raiding used to be.
    Last edited by pld; 2013-06-13 at 08:40 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    People need an incentive to raid normals. New players come into the game, run LFRs and then run out of (PvE) things to do because in their mind they already cleared all the content. Why bother raiding normals if it's just harder versions of what they already did.
    From this perspective, people need an incentive to raid heroics other than higher item levels. Which isn't true, because it's totally a thing on most servers.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I think it was Preach who mentioned that a delayed LFR system would help the state of the game.

    I would have to agree with Preach. It would help to add in a sense of "mystery" to PvE raiding that is pretty much non-existent now. I've raided since Vanilla and I enjoyed the sense of progress I got as my raid team moved onto new content. I think that same air of mystery encouraged people to look into raiding (it's partially what encouraged me to) and it'll be a good way to hook in newer players to "normal" raid. LFR will serve primarily as a way for everyone to experience the content and not as the "loot piñata" that it's frequently referred to as now.

    Delayed LFR may not fix the issues of poor raiding, but hopefully it'll spark a bigger interest in raiding. Flex raiding and easier normal raids will be tasked to do the rest and become a good tool to teach people how to raid.
    There is no mystery in raiding anymore mainly cause each next boss is a "dont stand in shit/move/stack/spread/clear debuffs/smash boss-collect loot" package packed in a bit different graphics - there may be variations but at some point - its all the same for last few years - people are just ...bored nothing less nothing more.



    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post

    Perhaps mystery is the wrong word. People need an incentive to raid normals. New players come into the game, run LFRs and then run out of (PvE) things to do because in their mind they already cleared all the content. Why bother raiding normals if it's just harder versions of what they already did. I'm a very casual console player and there are very few games I beat on Normal mode and then have the desire to go back and play it again on Hard. However, if there was an incentive for players (especially newer ones) to actually check out normal modes, I think we'd see an increase in raiding activity. People have had a taste of raiding, maybe if the instant-gratification system that LFR currently is were to be modified, PvE would begin seeing a shift away from "raiding" being LFR and closer to what pre-LFR raiding used to be.
    new players in wow very rarely make it to the normal - but mainly cause new players spend a lot of time lvling up , discovering the huge world which wow has them to offer - they havent been here for last few years like many of us - for them everything is new - and even if such player will eventually make it into raiding normals - if he doesnt have any firends which would take him into their raiding team and learn how to play properly - it may took few months if not a year to learn to play to the lv that is required for normal content raiding - and for such new players lfr is a huge blast - they go there and have fun - yes they have fun where u dont see fun. U say u want to give new player a goal to reach normal - but ask yourself - how many guilds would actually take such players for current content raid night ? or for progress ? how many ? - maybe u know other guilds then me - but from guilds that i know not a single one owuld do that - all guilds who are recruiting post that they want "experience" raiders - how would someone who has no irl connctions make it to such guild ? ok maybe there are exeptions like 0.01% but "average new joe player" has no chance to make it to the raiding guilds even if he wants cause of the standards most people have - he just plainly sucks :/
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-06-13 at 10:35 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    People need an incentive to raid normals. New players come into the game, run LFRs and then run out of (PvE) things to do because in their mind they already cleared all the content. Why bother raiding normals if it's just harder versions of what they already did.
    Why bother raiding heroics if it's just a harder version of why you already did?

    People should really ask themselves why so many people are flat-out rejecting normal/heroic raiding for the lesser and more tedious experience of LFR. People should also worry less about how others are spending their time in the game. If normal raiding is so damn wonderful then why do the huge majority of people stay away from it.

    It might be just barely possible that most people who might be interested don't really feel welcomed by the portion of the community that presents itself on forums and elsewhere. And guess what? For the most part they are not. There's no amount of incentive that will overcome that.

    EDIT [Mystery in Raiding]: This is gone forever. Get used to that. You can now watch High Definition YouTube's of raid encounters at a resolution high enough to make it practically indistinguishable from the actual game. You can usually watch those videos long before the raid ever gets launched on live. Some people would love to avoid them and learn the raid the old-fashioned way: by exploring and figuring things out. Too often though, they are required to review strats and videos before ever entering the instance. If they go in without being 'properly prepared' they don't raid. So there's your mystery.

    It's a very regrettable thing but it's the reality. Raiding at any sort of serious level, even in normal difficulty involves doing homework.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-06-13 at 11:39 PM.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by YeahNo View Post
    From this perspective, people need an incentive to raid heroics other than higher item levels. Which isn't true, because it's totally a thing on most servers.
    The two groups you are comparing are completely different. You cannot compare normal/casual players with hardcore players - it's apples and oranges.
    As a heroic raider, once you start raiding at a heroic level the attitude tends to be that the gear is a means to an end. People care less about gear and ilvl and focus more on how to eek out every bit of DPS/HPS/etc they can. I'm sure there are people who purely do heroics to show off their 535's, but I would argue that that is the minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    There is no mystery in raiding anymore mainly cause each next boss is a "dont stand in shit/move/stack/spread/clear debuffs/smash boss-collect loot" package packed in a bit different graphics - there may be variations but at some point - its all the same for last few years - people are just ...bored nothing less nothing more.

    new players in wow very rarely make it to the normal - but mainly cause new players spend a lot of time lvling up , discovering the huge world which wow has them to offer - they havent been here for last few years like many of us - for them everything is new - and even if such player will eventually make it into raiding normals - if he doesnt have any firends which would take him into their raiding team and learn how to play properly - it may took few months if not a year to learn to play to the lv that is required for normal content raiding - and for such new players lfr is a huge blast - they go there and have fun - yes they have fun where u dont see fun. U say u want to give new player a goal to reach normal - but ask yourself - how many guilds would actually take such players for current content raid night ? or for progress ? how many ? - maybe u know other guilds then me - but from guilds that i know not a single one owuld do that - all guilds who are recruiting post that they want "experience" raiders - how would someone who has no irl connctions make it to such guild ? ok maybe there are exeptions like 0.01% but "average new joe player" has no chance to make it to the raiding guilds even if he wants cause of the standards most people have - he just plainly sucks :/
    In my opinion, fights have become more engaging and interesting as time went on. Take away the "excitement" of raiding for the first time and all bosses can basically be described as "don't stand in the fire". My point isn't necessarily - "see how cool this fight is", it's more..."check out how fun raiding/progression can be".

    I agree with you that it's a pretty big problem that new players don't have an in to normal raids. But weren't we all in that boat at some point? I think LFR in it's current state promotes the attitude we see now, but my hope is that flex raids is a nice compromise between ease and accessibility. They shouldn't be hard to the point where you need skilled players filling the raid, but they also shouldn't be faceroll to the point where you can have half the raid afking and standing in fire. I do openraid fairly often on my alts and I see a lot of "underperformers" but we're still able to complete content. My hope is we'll see something like that where people are able to raid, ask questions, and improve at the same time.

    Also, we took a "casual" player to our heroic raid last night. First time into non-LFR ToT and he downed heroic Ji-Kun. I'm sure examples like this are the minority as you said, but there are guilds out there who want people to raid and don't have insane expectations.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    The two groups you are comparing are completely different.
    They are different, sure. By measure, not by type. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it seems that you're saying hardcore raiders don't need an incentive other than the fact that it's more challenging content. I'd mostly agree with that sentiment. The problem isn't that people are different, but that the differences between LFR and the next step up are too large. As long as the step up from LFR to Flex to Reg to Heroic isn't ridiculous, then those who want more challenge can make the jump.

    Basically, I'm saying all the incentive needed already exists, they just need a realistic step, like Flex.
    Last edited by YeahNo; 2013-06-13 at 11:54 PM. Reason: Imprecise point.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    See (2)

    Implement a ranking system where people can upvote good raid leaders and downvote the bad ones.

    If no one is in charge, it's chaos. As LFR has proven.
    And how is any sort of ranking system not meant to be abused, either for someone with a few friends in the group.
    Or against someone who is calling out against negative behaviour.

    Not going to work, simple as that.

    The incentive is fine, as might be argued to be the difficulty level with the right support.
    The problem is another barrier, and one created by players themselves.
    The time commitment, where there is less patience than ever and less understanding than ever of someone who cannot meet some strict timetable of when to start, and when to finish.
    For a lot of people real life simply does not work like that.

    That is why I am in LFR, and that is why I can't raid normal.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-06-13 at 11:57 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by YeahNo View Post
    They are different, sure. By measure, not by type. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it seems that you're saying hardcore raiders don't need an incentive other than the fact that it's more challenging content. I'd mostly agree with that sentiment. The problem isn't that people are different, but that the differences between LFR and the next step up are too large. As long as the step up from LFR to Flex to Reg to Heroic isn't ridiculous, then those who want more challenge can make the jump.

    Basically, I'm saying all the incentive needed already exists, they just need a realistic step, like Flex.
    I can get behind that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Why bother raiding heroics if it's just a harder version of why you already did?

    People should really ask themselves why so many people are flat-out rejecting normal/heroic raiding for the lesser and more tedious experience of LFR. People should also worry less about how others are spending their time in the game. If normal raiding is so damn wonderful then why do the huge majority of people stay away from it.

    It might be just barely possible that most people who might be interested don't really feel welcomed by the portion of the community that presents itself on forums and elsewhere. And guess what? For the most part they are not. There's no amount of incentive that will overcome that.

    EDIT [Mystery in Raiding]: This is gone forever. Get used to that. You can now watch High Definition YouTube's of raid encounters at a resolution high enough to make it practically indistinguishable from the actual game. You can usually watch those videos long before the raid ever gets launched on live. Some people would love to avoid them and learn the raid the old-fashioned way: by exploring and figuring things out. Too often though, they are required to review strats and videos before ever entering the instance. If they go in without being 'properly prepared' they don't raid. So there's your mystery.

    It's a very regrettable thing but it's the reality. Raiding at any sort of serious level, even in normal difficulty involves doing homework.
    As I alluded to in my previous post, heroics (when boiled down) are indeed "just" harder versions of normals. However, it's often looked upon as a measuring stick of how competent your raid group is. Most heroic guilds are generally filled with competitive raiders who want to complete ALL raid content ahead of the curve. It's not just about doing something harder, it's about the race to World First/Server first/Top Alliance or Horde on the server/etc. It's similar to Challenge Mode dungeons. They're harder versions of heroic dungeons, but come with a prize at the end. I would argue that heroic raiding is similar, but the prize varies - whether it be titles, the prestige, winning the race, or gear.

    I also think it's pretty important that the community acknowledges and talks about how people are spending time in the game. I'm not here to tell people that advanced raiding is the greatest thing ever and that everyone should subscribe to my opinions, but we're all playing an MMORPG. There's a direct correlation between overall community satisfaction and my gameplay - it's the nature of a multiplayer game. I'm also not here to say that advanced raiding is for everyone, but rather to discuss the fact that there is a huge disconnect between casual players and hardcore players. I think it's wrong that an LFR raider feels shunned by a heroic raider and my original argument was directed to address that. I think there are numerous reasons why normal raiding has seen such a drastic drop, but one of them is the fact that there is such a huge gap between LFR and Normals/Heroic. If Blizzard works to close that gap and makes non-LFR raiding accessible even to casual players, we'll begin to see a more active PvE environment.

    My suggestion that LFR should be delayed wasn't to necessarily spur on "mystery", but rather as a solution to the toxic casual vs. hardcore relationship that you brought up. My process of thinking was that if current content wasn't easily available (basically) right away, then perhaps casual players might explore other avenues of raiding. Perhaps they would check out flex raids or normal raids and ask friends/fellow players about how to get a foot in raiding. I also suggested that normal raids be reduced in difficulty to allow a buffer for newer raid teams who may not have much PvE experience outside of LFR. For people who are not interested in doing that, they'll still be able to see the content...just one tier later. For everyone else, there is still a lot of content to be enjoyed in WoW. Heck, even people who might want to raid, but cannot/will not for whatever reason...the game has been evolving for that type of player as well. Pugs are easily formed via Battletags and resources like Openraid.

    I really shouldn't have used the word "mystery". I understand that it's a nostalgia thing for most older players such as myself, but I don't think stuff like having fights up on YouTube or the PTR really affects the freshness of current content. YouTube videos of fights were still around back in Classic and TBC and that never seemed to ruin the "mystery" of them. Watching it online and doing it yourself are two very different ways to enjoy something.

    Now, I don't think having to do "homework" for PvE is necessarily a bad thing, but I don't agree with how much "homework" raids seem to require these days. WoW is a hobby - just like any other hobby...enjoying it to it's fullest capacity takes time. If I enjoy sports, I don't HAVE to practice drills on the side, but it helps. I think WoW should be similar. If I enjoy raiding in WoW, the player shouldn't HAVE to read up on strats to enjoy normal mode raiding, but they should be given an advantage if they do so.

    I think Blizzard has taken a huge step forward with Mists. They addressed a lot of issues that we saw in previous expansions and I think the content they've been releasing is top-notch. However, I think they really dropped the ball with how LFR is being used and how exclusive normal and heroic raiding feels. Raiding shouldn't be forced on everyone, but it should definitely be accessible to anyone.
    Last edited by pld; 2013-06-14 at 02:10 AM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    People don't want to just "see the content." They want to RAID! And real raiding requires a real Raid Leader.
    If people want to raid then they can raid. You will soon have THREE difficulty levels for raiding, including one with flexible attendance numbers...seriously it is far from Blizzards fault at this point that people don't raid. They have done everything and then some to get people into raiding, if you really want someone to hold your hand even more I suggest bumper bowling.

  14. #54
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    I didn't realize there was a problem with the system as it is and is planned?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Why bother raiding heroics if it's just a harder version of why you already did?

    People should really ask themselves why so many people are flat-out rejecting normal/heroic raiding for the lesser and more tedious experience of LFR. People should also worry less about how others are spending their time in the game. If normal raiding is so damn wonderful then why do the huge majority of people stay away from it.

    It might be just barely possible that most people who might be interested don't really feel welcomed by the portion of the community that presents itself on forums and elsewhere. And guess what? For the most part they are not. There's no amount of incentive that will overcome that.

    EDIT [Mystery in Raiding]: This is gone forever. Get used to that. You can now watch High Definition YouTube's of raid encounters at a resolution high enough to make it practically indistinguishable from the actual game. You can usually watch those videos long before the raid ever gets launched on live. Some people would love to avoid them and learn the raid the old-fashioned way: by exploring and figuring things out. Too often though, they are required to review strats and videos before ever entering the instance. If they go in without being 'properly prepared' they don't raid. So there's your mystery.

    It's a very regrettable thing but it's the reality. Raiding at any sort of serious level, even in normal difficulty involves doing homework.
    Exactly, why bother? So how by releasing LFR or any bumper lane mode of raiding (Flex raid) you're only killing off your bread and butter.
    They are wasting even MORE resources on Heroics since the number of players are shrinking and they're trying to push big raids (more bosses to tune).

    Not only that but obviously LFR and Flex Raiding (depending on it's difficulty) are just as good as a Heroic Dungeon. In-out, digested and people clamoring for more or worse /unsub.
    Any mode of raiding that is completed in less than a week will not keep people coming back just to farm shit and pray for their drops.

    But the biggest factor in all of this is the monthly sub. You want people addicted and logging on for things to do month by month.
    Raids and rated PvP did that easily.

  16. #56
    I don't understand the people that claim LFR is fine as it is. It's a cesspool.

    I do my best to give out boss strats. The trolls shout me down at first but eventually after a few wipes everyone listens and we get it done. Then you know what? People whisper me to thank me for telling them how to down the bosses. As a raid leader I could have kicked the trolls and we all would have finished an hour earlier. We'd also be able to enjoy the experience a little more.

    My guess is the only people saying this is a bad idea are the trolls themselves.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 12:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by orioxez View Post
    If people want to raid then they can raid. You will soon have THREE difficulty levels for raiding, including one with flexible attendance numbers...seriously it is far from Blizzards fault at this point that people don't raid. They have done everything and then some to get people into raiding, if you really want someone to hold your hand even more I suggest bumper bowling.
    If you don't realize all raiders have to do LFR to gear up at some point you don't really understand raiding or this game at all. There are valuable tier pieces and legendary quest items all raiders need in LFR.

    Also, I'm not looking to for someone to hold my hand. I want to lead and teach others how to raid. I just want Blizzard to give me the tools to do it properly.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Now, I don't think having to do "homework" for PvE is necessarily a bad thing, but I don't agree with how much "homework" raids seem to require these days. WoW is a hobby - just like any other hobby...enjoying it to it's fullest capacity takes time. If I enjoy sports, I don't HAVE to practice drills on the side, but it helps. I think WoW should be similar. If I enjoy raiding in WoW, the player shouldn't HAVE to read up on strats to enjoy normal mode raiding, but they should be given an advantage if they do so.
    I will aggre that the amount of homework was a problem in MoP. And that is if I include doing daylies, pushing rep, capping valor and most importantly doing LFR to get some extra gear. Because becoming a normal raider does not mean that you stop going into LFR, you still end up going in there in order to perhaps get a more powerful character.
    The amount of things that you had to do on the side for raiding ingame was just annoying. Reading bossguides, watching videos hasn't changed, but ingame stuff to do to be prepared just got annoying.

    Another thing is that with 10 man being the main group, you lose that 25 man school classroom feeling, I personally think that it was easier finding someone else to connect with back in the 25 man guilds than in 10 man guilds, because there you end up in a tight knit group as an outsider. And that can be a challenging perspective.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Giving all of that power to 1 person, in a random group is just asking for trouble. They would abuse it to no end.
    I think they should at least try this..... at this point blizz has set up almost a full proof system so a guy can afk, or pull before the tank does, or do low dps and troll the whole run and not get booted. Blizz has put so much effort into protecting these types from getting booted, they don't realize it's not fun for the other 4 (or 24 in LFR's case) people in the group.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    I don't understand the people that claim LFR is fine as it is. It's a cesspool.

    I do my best to give out boss strats. The trolls shout me down at first but eventually after a few wipes everyone listens and we get it done. Then you know what? People whisper me to thank me for telling them how to down the bosses. As a raid leader I could have kicked the trolls and we all would have finished an hour earlier. We'd also be able to enjoy the experience a little more.
    Where are you in LFR that there is more than one wipe? "A few wipes"? Really?

    LFR doesn't need self-appointed raid leaders. If you want to be in charge of something, start a guild.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 10:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I think they should at least try this..... at this point blizz has set up almost a full proof system so a guy can afk, or pull before the tank does, or do low dps and troll the whole run and not get booted. Blizz has put so much effort into protecting these types from getting booted, they don't realize it's not fun for the other 4 (or 24 in LFR's case) people in the group.
    I haven't had an LFR messed up by a troll that I couldn't kick in a long time. Not since 4.3 and Morchok really.

    These days, if there is someone ninja pulling, the group kills whatever got pulled and usually doesn't even waste time trying to figure out who to kick. It's a vaguely adult behavior.

  20. #60
    This is a horrible idea. I am not interested in handing over responsibilities to a nameless, faceless stranger who has zero accountability.

    I like LFR. It's fucking amazing and if not for LFR, I wouldn't be seeing much raiding action at all given that I have an actual job. A nice job, but still a job and it requires I spend a lot of time and focus on that. Not entirely sure why folks feel the need to stick their fingers in pies they didn't bake when there's perfectly fine cake in front of them that they are leaving to spoil so that they can bitch about their finger in someone else's pie.

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