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  1. #1

    How to fix LFR / Flexraid and, ultimately, WoW.

    For years I wanted a Looking For Raid feature, but IMO the implementation hasn't worked very well out to say the least. In fact, I believe it is driving players away from the game. The numbers may show lots of people are using LFR, but I doubt many of them like it. The new loot system, and the fact we're all funneled into LFR for tier gear and to complete our legendary quests has turned it into a disorganized zergfest and a trolls paradise. I have a simple solution to this. Hear me out.

    (1) Give LFR a true Raid Leader, with all the power of 10m and 25m Raid Leaders.
    (2) Implement some sort of ranking system for Raid Leaders to cut down on abuse.

    The reason 10m and 25m raids work so well is because they have real raid leaders. Give that power to LFR Raid Leaders and we will make those work, too.

    Raid Leaders would kick the trolls immediately and you'd see an abrupt end to the trolling. They could distribute loot using a simple roll system that would make the raid seem more like a "real" raid. They could take the time to explain the fights rather than deal with the gogogo-ers that currently dominate both LFR and 5 mans. Want to pull the boss before the tanks are ready? Get the boot. Want to go AFK instead of pulling your weight? Get the boot. Etc.

    You'd be surprised how effective a real Raid Leader would be. They basically run the end-game of WoW, and that's why it's worked so well up to this point. I say give them the tools they need to fix LFR, or get rid of LFR altogether. In it's current form, LFR is a failed experiment. I fear Flexraids will just be more of the same.

    People don't want to just "see the content." They want to RAID! And real raiding requires a real Raid Leader.

  2. #2
    Giving all of that power to 1 person, in a random group is just asking for trouble. They would abuse it to no end.

  3. #3
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Power to one person? I'm going to be blunt here

    Fuck that.

  4. #4
    See (2)

    Implement a ranking system where people can upvote good raid leaders and downvote the bad ones.

    If no one is in charge, it's chaos. As LFR has proven.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome
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    Raid leaders are randomly chosen in LFR. They aren't always listened to. But usually some baller steps up to the plate to direct the idiots to position for things like Lei Shen.

    A ranking system for leaders would be a giant pain in the ass and would be siphoning resources better spent elsewhere, like project Titan.

    LFR IS chaos, but it's still by and large the easiest and fastest way to gear a new toon regardless of the monumental ineptitude of some players, there are always enough to get the job done.

    LFR is extremely successful in that MANY players use it. It is also true that MANY players DO just want to "see the content", the issue with this is that people just quit after clearing LFR, having "beaten the game".

    Implementing a system like this would do nothing but create a shitstorm on the forums. People like wowcrendor's "Go" guy are not a result of the LFR culture, but its difficulty. Since wotlk 10 man raids content has been accessible to an EXTREME for most players, in many cases effective leadership is not nearly as big an issue as technical skill, and in LFR technical skill is circumvented by raidwide buffs/nerfs (example: Determination) and the fact that the bosses are mouthbreather retardedly easy to kill. See mikepreachwow at youtube for his social experiment on LFR and gearing on this issue.

    LFR's "Problem" is that it kills the desire of the casual player to reach Normal/Heroic levels of raiding. It does not matter that you killed a boss with more mechanics or with a more strict dps/hps requirement to the players with very little time to play, to them, what matters is killing the boss, that's endgame. But what happens when player's reach endgame in any game is that they ultimately quit. The old generation of wow players are slowly fading away, and the new generation suckle on LFR difficulty bilge and conclude that WoW is an easy game not worth their time. They do not come to possess any desire to raid whatsoever because that would just require effort that they don't need to put in to get epics from other sources (like LFR)

    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal. The casuals will still see all of the content, the only difference is their sub/unsub cycle is pushed backwards a few months as they have to wait longer for content to available in an easier format. The players who are on the fence on whether to be full on LFR mode or want to try normals will recognize that the content is already available to them and all they need to do is go out and see it, just like was done in Classic and BC, where no such easy modes existed.

    Flex raids might be a step in the right direction, they encourage a planned raiding environment that is, in theory, closer to normal mode content then LFR. In a best case scenario, Flex dominates the preferred method of gearing and fosters the development of raiding teams within and cross servers and eventually leads to the development of far more guilds running 10-25 man raids legitimately for progression . At the same time killing the "Log into Stormwind/Org, queue for LFR" lobby gamestyle that blizz foolishly created at the end of Cataclysm.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  6. #6
    "You'd be surprised how effective a real Raid Leader would be. They basically run the end-game of WoW, and that's why it's worked so well up to this point. I say give them the tools they need to fix LFR, or get rid of LFR altogether. In it's current form, LFR is a failed experiment. I fear Flexraids will just be more of the same."

    This paragraph makes no sense, as Flexraids will have a raid leader.

    EDIT: LFR is also only "failed" from your POV. Blizzard seems to be quite happy with it. (In before subscription loss count without proving what actually caused it)

  7. #7
    There is so much wrong with this idea I don't even know where to begin... but i'll try.

    1) raidleaders work because the group is organized and knows to listen to the leader. if a random bunch gets a leader, nothing will force them to listen to that leader, because there's no incentive to listen, or a deterrent to ignoring.

    2) give a LFR leader the power to give loot, plus the power to kick anyone, will result in the 4.3 LFR where people get randomly kicked because someone wants more loot for themselves.

    3) ranking systems are useless. i don't want to spend time after each LFR to rank a leader. I mean, how would you rank a leader? Players who get kicked would just rank him lowest. players who get tons of loot will just rank him highest, even if he caused the raid to wipe.

    4) LFR does not need a raidleader, because the tactics don't require special coordination. are you suggesting that a group of 25 randoms with wildly variable skill, gear and attention can organize themselves well enough to down a boss of normal caliber?

    5) again, about loot. how are you going to take care of this? are you going to drop specific loot that's distributed by the leader? then you'll have favoritism, bribery and scamming. are you going to let the raid leader decide who gets loot, but through the LFR loot system? again, you'll have favoritism, bribery and scamming. are you going to have the same loot system as currently? then why mention the raid leader giving loot? and one of the good things about current LFR is that you don't need to spend 15 minutes after each boss giving out loot.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Vito Corleone View Post
    (1) raidleaders work because the group is organized and knows to listen to the leader. if a random bunch gets a leader, nothing will force them to listen to that leader, because there's no incentive to listen, or a deterrent to ignoring.
    The possibility of getting kicked is definitely an incentive / deterrent. In fact, it's the only one that's proven to work.
    Last edited by Pandawatch; 2013-06-12 at 12:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Astonishingly bad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayhos View Post
    every video game has gamey aspects to it

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Lemposs's Avatar
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    Of all the threads about fixing LFR, I rate this the lowest. Never ever give power to anybody in a random group, it literaly f**** everything up...

  11. #11
    LFR assigns someone the title of raid leader, but it's meaningless. They have no power to control the flow of the raid and it's up to the other 24 players if they want to listen at all. Same with Flexraids. It will still have the personal loot system which everyone hates. Everyone!

    In theory, LFR shouldn't be any different than regular raids. The only difference is they don't have a real raid leader. Someone at Blizzard got cold feet and decided to remove raid leaders from LFR, and they are bleeding subs because of it. No one likes LFR. You can say they do all you want but they don't. I doubt even Blizzard likes it at this point.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 05:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemposs View Post
    Of all the threads about fixing LFR, I rate this the lowest. Never ever give power to anybody in a random group, it literaly f**** everything up...
    How is LFR more "random" than people from your guild? Sure you may know some of your guildies IRL but for the most part we are all strangers playing the same game over the internet. Blizzard should put the trust back into the community and the raid leaders (and the GMs, but that's another post) rather than just letting mob rule.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 05:48 AM ----------

    To explain further, random groups are only bad because there's no accountability. With a real raid leader you would have that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 05:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal.
    I'd be down with removing it altogether, but I doubt Blizzard would do that at this point. Thus I'm trying to find a way to fix it so it's not the pure hell it is now. The number one reason people seem to be leaving the game from personal feedback is that LFR has taken the fun out of the game. It feels mandatory, it's a crazy time sink, and it's a trollfest.
    Last edited by Pandawatch; 2013-06-12 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    EDIT: LFR is also only "failed" from your POV. Blizzard seems to be quite happy with it. (In before subscription loss count without proving what actually caused it)
    They were happy with the rep/dailies situation early on too. I don't think they always know what exactly people want/need in this game.

    They're happy with it because a lot of people staying logged in to trudge through the crapfest of LFR for free items. Players would stay logged on too if they had a real engaging piece of gameplay to experience as well, funny enough. People would also stay logged on for free items if an npc gave you a quest of having to be logged in for 2 hours.

    Blizzard doesn't really get it.

  13. #13
    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal. The casuals will still see all of the content, the only difference is their sub/unsub cycle is pushed backwards a few months as they have to wait longer for content to available in an easier format. The players who are on the fence on whether to be full on LFR mode or want to try normals will recognize that the content is already available to them and all they need to do is go out and see it, just like was done in Classic and BC, where no such easy modes existed.
    Never thought of this -- pure genius.

  14. #14
    OP your idea is stupid.

    Noone listens to the RL in lfr anyway,

    Putting that kind of power in a randoms hands would be silly. I'm astounded you came to post stuff like this without thinking it through.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    Raid leaders are randomly chosen in LFR. They aren't always listened to. But usually some baller steps up to the plate to direct the idiots to position for things like Lei Shen.

    A ranking system for leaders would be a giant pain in the ass and would be siphoning resources better spent elsewhere, like project Titan.

    LFR IS chaos, but it's still by and large the easiest and fastest way to gear a new toon regardless of the monumental ineptitude of some players, there are always enough to get the job done.

    LFR is extremely successful in that MANY players use it. It is also true that MANY players DO just want to "see the content", the issue with this is that people just quit after clearing LFR, having "beaten the game".

    Implementing a system like this would do nothing but create a shitstorm on the forums. People like wowcrendor's "Go" guy are not a result of the LFR culture, but its difficulty. Since wotlk 10 man raids content has been accessible to an EXTREME for most players, in many cases effective leadership is not nearly as big an issue as technical skill, and in LFR technical skill is circumvented by raidwide buffs/nerfs (example: Determination) and the fact that the bosses are mouthbreather retardedly easy to kill. See mikepreachwow at youtube for his social experiment on LFR and gearing on this issue.

    LFR's "Problem" is that it kills the desire of the casual player to reach Normal/Heroic levels of raiding. It does not matter that you killed a boss with more mechanics or with a more strict dps/hps requirement to the players with very little time to play, to them, what matters is killing the boss, that's endgame. But what happens when player's reach endgame in any game is that they ultimately quit. The old generation of wow players are slowly fading away, and the new generation suckle on LFR difficulty bilge and conclude that WoW is an easy game not worth their time. They do not come to possess any desire to raid whatsoever because that would just require effort that they don't need to put in to get epics from other sources (like LFR)

    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal. The casuals will still see all of the content, the only difference is their sub/unsub cycle is pushed backwards a few months as they have to wait longer for content to available in an easier format. The players who are on the fence on whether to be full on LFR mode or want to try normals will recognize that the content is already available to them and all they need to do is go out and see it, just like was done in Classic and BC, where no such easy modes existed.
    Flex raids might be a step in the right direction, they encourage a planned raiding environment that is, in theory, closer to normal mode content then LFR. In a best case scenario, Flex dominates the preferred method of gearing and fosters the development of raiding teams within and cross servers and eventually leads to the development of far more guilds running 10-25 man raids legitimately for progression . At the same time killing the "Log into Stormwind/Org, queue for LFR" lobby gamestyle that blizz foolishly created at the end of Cataclysm.
    So much good, common sense here. It'd likely ruffle a few feathers, but then again, what doesn't these days?

    Best suggestion to fix this "issue" that I've seen; it's not like (most) LFR-ers really follow the story/lore to the point that they'd be heartbroken for having to wait til the next tier to do the bosses. Blizz doesn't lose many/any subs outside the normal, simply changes the timeframe for unsub/resub cycles.
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  16. #16
    To all the naysayers, don't you guys realize this is the solution to all of WoW's problems? It says so in the title.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    Raid leaders are randomly chosen in LFR. They aren't always listened to. But usually some baller steps up to the plate to direct the idiots to position for things like Lei Shen.

    A ranking system for leaders would be a giant pain in the ass and would be siphoning resources better spent elsewhere, like project Titan.

    LFR IS chaos, but it's still by and large the easiest and fastest way to gear a new toon regardless of the monumental ineptitude of some players, there are always enough to get the job done.

    LFR is extremely successful in that MANY players use it. It is also true that MANY players DO just want to "see the content", the issue with this is that people just quit after clearing LFR, having "beaten the game".

    Implementing a system like this would do nothing but create a shitstorm on the forums. People like wowcrendor's "Go" guy are not a result of the LFR culture, but its difficulty. Since wotlk 10 man raids content has been accessible to an EXTREME for most players, in many cases effective leadership is not nearly as big an issue as technical skill, and in LFR technical skill is circumvented by raidwide buffs/nerfs (example: Determination) and the fact that the bosses are mouthbreather retardedly easy to kill. See mikepreachwow at youtube for his social experiment on LFR and gearing on this issue.

    LFR's "Problem" is that it kills the desire of the casual player to reach Normal/Heroic levels of raiding. It does not matter that you killed a boss with more mechanics or with a more strict dps/hps requirement to the players with very little time to play, to them, what matters is killing the boss, that's endgame. But what happens when player's reach endgame in any game is that they ultimately quit. The old generation of wow players are slowly fading away, and the new generation suckle on LFR difficulty bilge and conclude that WoW is an easy game not worth their time. They do not come to possess any desire to raid whatsoever because that would just require effort that they don't need to put in to get epics from other sources (like LFR)

    LFR doesn't need to be fixed, it just needs to be removed OR launched a tier after the content was available on normal. The casuals will still see all of the content, the only difference is their sub/unsub cycle is pushed backwards a few months as they have to wait longer for content to available in an easier format. The players who are on the fence on whether to be full on LFR mode or want to try normals will recognize that the content is already available to them and all they need to do is go out and see it, just like was done in Classic and BC, where no such easy modes existed.

    Flex raids might be a step in the right direction, they encourage a planned raiding environment that is, in theory, closer to normal mode content then LFR. In a best case scenario, Flex dominates the preferred method of gearing and fosters the development of raiding teams within and cross servers and eventually leads to the development of far more guilds running 10-25 man raids legitimately for progression . At the same time killing the "Log into Stormwind/Org, queue for LFR" lobby gamestyle that blizz foolishly created at the end of Cataclysm.
    I agree that LFR does kill your does kill your desire to raid normal and heroic. I know it certainly did for me. But what your suggesting is really going to be a double edge sword. If you cut out LFR all those people that play at just that level will be applying to YOUR guilds. All the trolls, all the weak dps, all the go go goers. And you think your gonna fix them? You think they are gonna improve? They will suddenly be less selfish? whats gonna happen is they are gonna get into your guilds cause a tremendous amount of churn and guild drama, take YOUR gear and then guess what. They will be the first people to disappear with no word of warning with all the loot you just handed to them right after you beat the final boss. They will be the first to jump ship and app to a different guild that is further along in progression then you.

    Because what everyone forgets is that is people can play together as a team but that doesn't mean they think like a team.

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    LFR is intended to be an introduction to raiding. FlexRaid should do what you want.

  19. #19
    Why would they use resources fixing things that aren't broken?

    You don't need a raid leader in LFR, you don't need CC or specific people doing specific tasks. You just need everyone to press 3 skills each and bosses die, there's no need for a raid leader, it wouldn't fix anything. And nothing is really all that broken to begin with.

  20. #20
    A better solution, split the loot table from normal/heroic. The gear should be blue quality gear that allows them to advance through lfr and be of quality for normal mode raiding. If the purpose is to allow those who can't raid on a set schedule to experience the content with minimal organization, they should be equivalently rewarded for such effort. People do not have to feel compelled to run LFR because their primary raid didn't have a UVLS or similar item drop and you dont have to run LFR for legendary quest items. You simply run it because you dont have time and want to see the content OR you run it to catch up to the current tier.

    Another unpopular idea would be to simply drop the current tier raid from LFR and make the normal mode of the previous tier (buffs on wipes and difficulty nerfs) the "LFR" mode. At the start of expansions, there would be no real need for LFR because you have heroic dungeons/scenarios as "current/catchup content" and they could still see the last raid of a previous expansion because they'll be at a higher level cap.
    Last edited by Fanatik; 2013-06-13 at 02:04 AM.

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