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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    And I don't care if non-raiders are getting high ilvl gear. I care because LFR's mere existence diminishes MY rewards because I spend more time and play better for reskins and added mechanics and now I don't even have HAVE to play better to see the instance.

    It's because of LFR that I quit raiding. I feel like an idiot trying to improve myself when LFR is a click away.
    I use to be motivated to advance in the instance so I can witness it for myself but LFR is right there.
    LFR is a question to raiders: do you want to continue this harder path for nearly identical rewards?
    And this my dear mr is the reason some of those who complain about lfr complain - cause they suddenly realise in how dreamy world they have been living uptill now in which world people in game actually cared and looked up to hc raiders - when the reality is harsh for them - besides maybe other hc raiding guilds from the pure competetive side who will be higher on realm rank - nobody gives a damn about hc raiding - and some of those people feel like the bubble they have been living in been bursted.


    And about people who subscribe/unsubscribe regulary - its normal after so many years of playing this game - if someone has been raiding for last 4-6-8 years its normal that hes already burned out - that he really dont care about chalenges - some people have been raiding for many years and eventually everybody burns out - there comes a moment when player think - no i just cant its not fun anymore - and u cant do anything about it - there is nothing especially interesting in any of those tiers - of HC raids are chalenge - but how many years people want same chalenge in game - wow misses a new fresh - compeltly orginal and fresh group content activity - maybe flex raid will be the answear - but i still think that the reason wow is loosing subscribes steadily for last few years is that it misses something new orginal and fresh - and untill they will think something out - wow will still loose subs
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-06-17 at 05:26 PM.

  2. #122
    I think relatively few look up to hc raiders if any. But what ends up being important is your own "journey" and honestly now a days completing the end game content of a content patch (clearing the instance, killing the endboss) in 1 afternoon is just boring.

    With LFR i get through the content but after i've finished well I have no other guildies to share the experience with. Back in the day you and your guild tried these encounters and defeated them and had stuff to talk about now well go into normal mode most members of the guild have already killed the endboss before even looking at him in normal mode, there is no real journey it is just another difficulty level, unfortunatly it is the first difficulty level of the content where you interact socially with your fellow players. LFR is just a place for faceless anynimous masses.

    I really do not get why people always say we need a new feature something new something fresh. I mean if you've got a good formular why try to fuss around with it.
    You might as well say that soccer needs a new and interresting feature cause nothing has happened there in years, what about adding more footballs to a soccer match^^ But somehow soccer is still very popular and people play it or watch it year in and year out it doesn't get old.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    And this my dear mr is the reason some of those who complain about lfr complain - cause they suddenly realise in how dreamy world they have been living uptill now in which world people in game actually cared and looked up to hc raiders
    You honestly think hc raiders have ever given a crap about what you or any other non-hc raider thinks about them? You really think people put in countless hours daily to beat the hardest content just that they could show off to you and people like you? You might want to check your ego there.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    I think relatively few look up to hc raiders if any. But what ends up being important is your own "journey" and honestly now a days completing the end game content of a content patch (clearing the instance, killing the endboss) in 1 afternoon is just boring.

    With LFR i get through the content but after i've finished well I have no other guildies to share the experience with.
    Pretty accurate. I don't remember anything from LFR last expansion, heck, I can barely remember anything memorable from THIS tier. My alts go through, I do my best, and we're done in an hour. It's basically the same as eating candy for dinner. People can STILL tell you about Karazhan stories that happened to them 7 years ago, which was the easiest raid of that expansion.

    There's a reason all the threads about LFR are either loot related, or trying to explain why it's not beneficial to the game at all.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    I think relatively few look up to hc raiders if any. But what ends up being important is your own "journey" and honestly now a days completing the end game content of a content patch (clearing the instance, killing the endboss) in 1 afternoon is just boring.
    There might be some people who "look up" to HC raiders but if anyone cares about one it's most likely for competitive reasons.

    HC raiders are not really what the game is about. WoW is in theory an immersive role-playing game. Nothing is less about immersion and role-playing than heroic raiding. But that's fine. The game is also many things to many people.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    I think relatively few look up to hc raiders if any. But what ends up being important is your own "journey" and honestly now a days completing the end game content of a content patch (clearing the instance, killing the endboss) in 1 afternoon is just boring.
    The game must be amazingly boring for HC raiders. They completely clear normal mode at least a week before LFR players can even step in the door and a month+ before LFR players see the end boss.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    The game must be amazingly boring for HC raiders. They completely clear normal mode at least a week before LFR players can even step in the door and a month+ before LFR players see the end boss.
    Please believe that I have probably a hundred more stories from raids over the last 8 years than anyone does doing LFR. There is MUCH more of a journey, a sense of having actually done something that mattered. His point is definitely valid.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    The game must be amazingly boring for HC raiders. They completely clear normal mode at least a week before LFR players can even step in the door and a month+ before LFR players see the end boss.
    I was actually talking about LFR, you can become content clear in 1 afternoon and thats it. Had a mate return for 7 free days, he got content clear and said oh well that was fine and fun and goodbye.
    For him it was irrelevant that LFR had a staggered release he just showed up when it was all released and cleared it in 1 afternoon.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 08:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Please believe that I have probably a hundred more stories from raids over the last 8 years than anyone does doing LFR. There is MUCH more of a journey, a sense of having actually done something that mattered. His point is definitely valid.
    Yea and somehow those memories are more precious than whatever purple pixels you end up having for a short amount of time before you vendor them or throw them into void storage.
    I love comparing raiding in WoW to a hobby or to playing soccer it might not give you the physical excersice, but it does let you meet people and that can be rather fascinating.

  9. #129
    • LFR should be removed.
    • A Game Lobby should be introduced to advertise Flex Raids available, in game, with notes and requirements.
    • Less loot, at a lower ilvl than normals should drop, and when it does it goes to everyone in the group with at least 1 person in the group being able to actually equip the item ie. 1pc drops to everyone - those that can use, grats, those that can't can de or vendor, and at least one person in the group will be able to actually use the item, so if you brought no agility wearers, then no agility would drop at all.
    • Vote to Kick system remains (maybe with looser requirements to actually kick)
    • Being in a Flex raid for boss kills and till completion awards points that are shown in the lobby, so if you're an idiot, your Flexraid reputation will fall until you can no longer find a group willing to take you.
    • Optional voting system to award extra Flex raid rep for exceptional players you WANT to have good rep (you can't vote down though to avoid abuse).


    This will allow everyone to easily join flex raids even if you don't know many people in the game. There will naturally be "raid leaders" to one degree or another because non-raid leaders won't be posting raids for sign-ups in the lobby. Better reflects what actual raiding is all about. Loot will always be rewarded, but loot you can use will still take some effort. This will also avoid loot drama and encourage people to congratulate those they are raiding with as they will know someone just got something useful instead of the current system where no one sees anything but personal rolls.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandawatch View Post
    For years I wanted a Looking For Raid feature, but IMO the implementation hasn't worked very well out to say the least. In fact, I believe it is driving players away from the game. The numbers may show lots of people are using LFR, but I doubt many of them like it. The new loot system, and the fact we're all funneled into LFR for tier gear and to complete our legendary quests has turned it into a disorganized zergfest and a trolls paradise. I have a simple solution to this. Hear me out.

    (1) Give LFR a true Raid Leader, with all the power of 10m and 25m Raid Leaders.
    (2) Implement some sort of ranking system for Raid Leaders to cut down on abuse.

    The reason 10m and 25m raids work so well is because they have real raid leaders. Give that power to LFR Raid Leaders and we will make those work, too.

    Raid Leaders would kick the trolls immediately and you'd see an abrupt end to the trolling. They could distribute loot using a simple roll system that would make the raid seem more like a "real" raid. They could take the time to explain the fights rather than deal with the gogogo-ers that currently dominate both LFR and 5 mans. Want to pull the boss before the tanks are ready? Get the boot. Want to go AFK instead of pulling your weight? Get the boot. Etc.

    You'd be surprised how effective a real Raid Leader would be. They basically run the end-game of WoW, and that's why it's worked so well up to this point. I say give them the tools they need to fix LFR, or get rid of LFR altogether. In it's current form, LFR is a failed experiment. I fear Flexraids will just be more of the same.

    People don't want to just "see the content." They want to RAID! And real raiding requires a real Raid Leader.
    Giving players in this community any sort of power is always a bad idea. LFR is fine.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Please believe that I have probably a hundred more stories from raids over the last 8 years than anyone does doing LFR. There is MUCH more of a journey, a sense of having actually done something that mattered. His point is definitely valid.
    The thing about raiding stories is just like the thing with golf stories. They're way, way more interesting to the person who participated in the story than they are to everyone else. That feeling when I eagled the first hole on a new golf course on the day it opened by holing out a well-hit 9-iron from 145 yards, it was an awesome moment, but I understand no one else gives a shit. I assume you understand no one gives a shit about your personal raiding stories either.

    Now, is someone doing heroic raiding having a more interesting experience than someone in LFR? Well I would think that would depend on whether the heroic raider felt it was a good use of his time, whether he felt stressed out by difficulty or interpersonal or schedule issues, whether he was bored with it, whatever. Maybe it's awesome for some people and not at all what other people like.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    The thing about raiding stories is just like the thing with golf stories. They're way, way more interesting to the person who participated in the story than they are to everyone else. That feeling when I eagled the first hole on a new golf course on the day it opened by holing out a well-hit 9-iron from 145 yards, it was an awesome moment, but I understand no one else gives a shit. I assume you understand no one gives a shit about your personal raiding stories either.

    Now, is someone doing heroic raiding having a more interesting experience than someone in LFR? Well I would think that would depend on whether the heroic raider felt it was a good use of his time, whether he felt stressed out by difficulty or interpersonal or schedule issues, whether he was bored with it, whatever. Maybe it's awesome for some people and not at all what other people like.
    What you fail to understand is that the stories are shared stories it is things that you did together with other people, and together with those people you can recollect them and talk about those stories.
    With LFR you go into the instance alone and you leave it alone.
    Normal mode you go into the instance with your guildies have fun and perhaps experience stuff that make for a good story that you might recollect some time later while in vent and talk about.
    It doesn't have anything to do with heroic raiding it has to do with doing something together with other people that you interact with and that simply adds a whole nother layer to the experience.

    Sure the stories do not mean anything to other people, but they give you and your guildies a fun experience.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    Look at Blizzards latest investor call. They know that casual player interaction with the game is down, less new players are sticking with the game - that's clear to them from their data.

    So while we have all this new endgame content, all designed for non-raiders, we see sub numbers drop because of casuals don't play this game for long. Casuals, who are the reason the raiding experience, which was once the prime endgame content in wow, was devalued completely.

    And why would they stick around? New players come to WoW because of the gear progression and raiding. When they are luckey, they get full tier set in 1 (!!!) full run of lfr AND they get to see all bosses in 1 (!!!) full run of lfr! Why would they stick around?

    It takes more time to level your pets to 25 and get the achievements.
    It takes more time to farm mounts.
    It takes more time to farm old gear for transmog.
    It takes more time to get achievements.
    It takes more time to climb up in Brawlers Guild ranks.

    All of the above take more time then getting your epics and seeing the current endboss of raid content!

    That is what's wrong and Blizzard knows this. They just opend this pandoras box in WotLK and took it to the extreme with lfr. Now they try to repair some damage in the community with /flex raiding, because besides completely devalueing their once prime endgame content, it also destroyed a lot of player interaction, the last there was necessary in this game (because lfd for 5mans and pvp already existed).

    LFR needs to go and it will. It hinders the forming of the social aspect of the game, that's why people play an mmo in the first place. It will be made less and less attractive and then changed or patched out. LFR was wrong, it doesn't need fixing, it needs to go.
    +1 I completely agree. Only one problem: GC isn't smart enough / humble enough to allow this to happen. He will need to be fired first, something I pray happens sooner than later. Honestly, what does it take anymore to get fired from Blizz? How do his numbers fly in a for-profit business?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 04:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    This is supposed to fix wow? lol. Removing GC would fix wow. just look at the amazingly stupid nerfs to passive defense abilities in 5.4. If it isn't broken don't fix it. Who complained about hunters, shadow priests, and boomies having added defense in form. Added to that why make KJC for warlocks a cd then remove the cd so it's always on and then revert to a nerfed version of the first.

    The mean is a tard when it comes to lead systems designing.

    And upvoting someone to great LFR raid leader only means they can show their true colors once in power.

    No to your ideas sorry.
    That he hasn't been fired yet, considering the very real numbers we have seen produced under his reign, makes me think the higher-ups in Blizz. have a very different perspective on the long-term viability of WoW than players do. I am trying to conceive of reasons why they might not want to increase their subscriber numbers and lengthen player's lifetime value. Seems crazy to me but who knows.
    Last edited by Eviscero; 2013-06-17 at 10:06 PM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Sure the stories do not mean anything to other people, but they give you and your guildies a fun experience.
    Yes but that has nothing to do with raiding. It has to do with playing with other people.

    Trying to "force" people to raid with each other in order to give them a fun experience isn't going to work. It's just going to make them dislike the game and go off to play something where they can do more what they would prefer.

    The people who want to raid together and who have a schedule that permits them to raid together already raid together.

    The people running LFR (aside from the small but vocal number who are "forced" to for gearing) are not a significant source of potential future organized raiders. If you take LFR away, or make it an obviously substandard experience (from the perspective of someone who does not do organized raiding), all that will happen is that you will have people in the game who used to have something to do (LFR) and who now must find something else to do (which won't be organized raiding).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 03:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    This is supposed to fix wow? lol. Removing GC would fix wow. just look at the amazingly stupid nerfs to passive defense abilities in 5.4. If it isn't broken don't fix it. Who complained about hunters, shadow priests, and boomies having added defense in form.
    There was really no good reason why some classes should have an automatic passive damage reduction in PvE while others didn't. It was just a balance problem potentially getting in the way of "bring the player, not the class." I suspect it might have been about to cause some kind of problem in T16.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    What you fail to understand is that the stories are shared stories it is things that you did together with other people, and together with those people you can recollect them and talk about those stories.
    .
    And with how many people u raid still that u raided in vanilla or TBC ? how many of those people are still playing and how many just one day never logged in cause they got bored with game ? and how often its u telling stories to people who never raided with u back then , who perhaps never played wow at all back then instead share those memories with people who were there back then ?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Eviscero View Post
    That he hasn't been fired yet, considering the very real numbers we have seen produced under his reign, makes me think the higher-ups in Blizz. have a very different perspective on the long-term viability of WoW than players do. I am trying to conceive of reasons why they might not want to increase their subscriber numbers and lengthen player's lifetime value. Seems crazy to me but who knows.
    I think they are using WoW to experiment for Titan.
    Clearly they are stupidly ignoring the longevity of the game in favor of something more superficial.
    It might be that they are running out of ideas to keep WoW relevant in the face of other games so they are prepared for inevitible downsizing of subscribers so they figured they'd use it as an opportunity to test a few things.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eviscero View Post
    That he hasn't been fired yet, considering the very real numbers we have seen produced under his reign, makes me think the higher-ups in Blizz. have a very different perspective on the long-term viability of WoW than players do. I am trying to conceive of reasons why they might not want to increase their subscriber numbers and lengthen player's lifetime value. Seems crazy to me but who knows.
    He's not the game director for one thing; he reports to higher-ups including the game director. If you want to go after someone go after the one in charge.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    And with how many people u raid still that u raided in vanilla or TBC ? how many of those people are still playing and how many just one day never logged in cause they got bored with game ? and how often its u telling stories to people who never raided with u back then , who perhaps never played wow at all back then instead share those memories with people who were there back then ?
    This isn't about the old old stories, but about being able to make new stories with your guildies. People don't just sit around talking about "back when ragnaros got out of the lava for the first time". But talking about new stories, new things that you've experienced that is what is missing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 08:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yes but that has nothing to do with raiding. It has to do with playing with other people.
    Trying to "force" people to raid with each other in order to give them a fun experience isn't going to work. It's just going to make them dislike the game and go off to play something where they can do more what they would prefer.
    Yes and when you raid you schould play with other people and that is what you do. It makes for a more fun experience.

    Some people might feel intimidated of the prospect of having to play with other people, but it might actually turn out to be rather fun once they try it. It is like watching a kid in kindergarten for the first day, who is really shy and what will the others think, it ends up being quite all right.

    And I think that it would be a more fun game if the endgame consisted of something that was completely player organised like raiding was, preferably a raiding model like the WotLK model, because that model gave content to a lot of players and a lot where included, and at the same time there was hardmodes ala ulduar for those wanting an extra challenge.

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