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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Looking at my logs for the night I'm at around 10s or so depending on go procs for 5 stacks of bastion, and since you only need 3 to get the wog return, it'd be possible to do it probably at like 30% haste. Biggest thing though is the loss of Wog as a save, with all stacks dumped consistently you'd never have them if you needed it. It's an interesting concept, but its likely if it'd sim with any success they'd be made mutually exclusive.
    This is my biggest concern.

    "I don't always WOG, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equ...err...5-stacks" - Most Interesting Paladin in the World

    I feel like the bonus will be basically a consolation prize (much like t15) for when we DO have to WOG while we are progressing, and will become a tool to game HoPo/ShotR uptime once we outgear everything. Is it so much to ask to have a bonus that's useful during progression again?

    Look at the DK set bonii - The DRW changes and the set bonus give any half-decent tank a semi. No more RP cost on DRW, and when you pop it with 4pc, you get all FU runes back as D runes AND you get FOUR FREE DS'S! That is just insane! Hell, even the 2pc (every 4 BBs, HSs or RSs give you an extra bone shield charge) is head and shoulders above anything we get.

    Instead, we get a mini-game that basically offers us the choice of gaming one of our "saves" for a moderate increase in HoPo when palyed properly, IF we choose what has almost unequivocally been subpar gear (vs haste off-pieces). Plus, as you surmised, if one was to go for the 2t15+2t16 combo, we'd likely see commensurate breaking of the bonus to prevent ridiculousness. Even though, as I posted earlier, the 2 set bonii work against each other already AND it would force us into very poorly itemized gear.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 01:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoskadosk View Post
    If you think 2p is bad you've clearly misunderstood the whole mechanic of it.

    This would be the scenario to use it; 3 HoPo SotR to 3 stacks > stack 5 HoPo > SotR > 1 HoPo > SotR > 1 HoPo > 5 stack BoG WoG > SotR > 1 HoPo > SotR. You're now at 2 stacks of BoG, repeat the same rotation except you only do one 3 HoPo SotR to bring you back to 3 BoG until you bank 5 HoPo again.

    Once at 3 stacks of BoG and 5 HoPo banked, you're looking at 4 SotR in 4 GCDs, not counting DP procs. Still think it's bad?

    The question at hand is how to deal with DP procs and how to avoid wasted BoG stacks if one is to go with that talent. I also don't see the fascination of T15 2p + T16 2p, you're only using WoG at 1 HoPo.
    Nobody is unsure of how it works, nor how it looks on paper. We are saying that you're giving up the reliability of a banked WOG in favor of gaming ShotR uptime. Throwing this into a real world scenario where you may need that big heal, or on a high magic damage fight, or with DP procs obviously make this a bit more complicated.

    And no, I see no reason to ever use 2+2 as their mechanics are diametrically opposed on efficiency. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot unless it was some crazy amount of adds you were tanking.

    Basically, my stance is this:

    The 2pc is not BAD. I will likely get it and use it, but not before my 2 warlocks, our disc priest and our ret/holy pal get their tier. It provides an interesting playstlye change, but not one that is conducive to "average" players. I wish, instead, that we had gotten bonii more in line with the DK set (2pc passively increases a minor CD, 4pc greatly increases effectiveness of a larger CD). We got the same "formula" but not the same effect.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-06-13 at 01:16 PM.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    This is my biggest concern.
    ... you're giving up the reliability of a banked WOG in favor of gaming ShotR uptime. Throwing this into a real world scenario where you may need that big heal, or on a high magic damage fight ...
    I can agree that it's lackluster on high damage magic fights. However, looking at Fireflys math, we'd be looking at close to or above 100% SotR uptime which would be insane on physical damage fights, certainly not something one can dismiss as "meh".
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoskadosk View Post
    I can agree that it's lackluster on high damage magic fights. However, looking at Fireflys math, we'd be looking at close to or above 100% SotR uptime which would be insane on physical damage fights, certainly not something one can dismiss as "meh".
    Still not calling it "meh", just not great or to the point that I'll be jockeying to get my tier over DPS or healers.

    With proper gear next tier, we're looking at 50%+ haste from gear alone, putting us already well into the 80%s for ShotR uptime. 100% is great on paper and sounds awesome, but honestly with a decent bit of timing and skill, that 80% overall will translate to 100% effective uptime. Plus you'd not have (likely) shitty itemized gear, even if it only is in 2 slots.

    Like I said: I'll get the bonus and use it, but I just don't have a raging hard-on for it from what I've seen now. Time will tell, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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    20k and counting...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    With proper gear next tier, we're looking at 50%+ haste from gear alone, putting us already well into the 80%s for ShotR uptime. 100% is great on paper and sounds awesome, but honestly with a decent bit of timing and skill, that 80% overall will translate to 100% effective uptime.
    Stats on the tier gear is not finalized, we can still probably take the best two and make use of it. The extra SotR uses over the "80% is 100% effective uptime" would just be pure damage at that point.



  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    It really isn't, explain to me how this is anyone's definition of OP while you openly suggest to not run the t15 2p for the sake of 600 haste rating? It's the same bonus with a different coat of paint. That doesn't mean it's inherently bad, doesn't mean I won't end up using it as I do with the current 2p. It does mean however that there's no rush to get it.
    It really is not comparable. T15 2p gave block at the cost of sotr uptime. T16 2p gives you about 30-40% increseased uptime on SotR. That is just insane.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It really is not comparable. T15 2p gave block at the cost of sotr uptime. T16 2p gives you about 30-40% increseased uptime on SotR. That is just insane.
    Show me one relevant log in which anything even close to that much uptime could be provided by the bonus. You only benefit when you use wog in the first place, so your baseline sotr uptime from a sim is unchanged, if you're using wog enough to cut down 30% of your sotr uptime you're playing the class wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 12:13 AM ----------

    You can scrap together some additional HP by waiting till 5 stacks, but even at my haste levels that's simply not enough giving up bastion of glory on wog.

    Using wog at 1 HP would increase returns significantly, I'll change my stance on that. The issue is though then you fully are committing to having no outs for if you spike. At 45% haste I'm looking at 67-70% sotr uptime, its fairly obvious that by next tier we'll be skirting the edges of 100% uptime without such a big sacrifice.

    Will try it on Ptr after exams and see what the uptime is like.
    Last edited by Choice; 2013-06-13 at 02:26 PM.

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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoskadosk View Post
    I can agree that it's lackluster on high damage magic fights. However, looking at Fireflys math, we'd be looking at close to or above 100% SotR uptime which would be insane on physical damage fights, certainly not something one can dismiss as "meh".
    Also, it is not like having the set bonus forces you to use WoG at all times. You can hold it in and not use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Nobody is unsure of how it works, nor how it looks on paper. We are saying that you're giving up the reliability of a banked WOG in favor of gaming ShotR uptime. Throwing this into a real world scenario where you may need that big heal, or on a high magic damage fight, or with DP procs obviously make this a bit more complicated.
    Lets be completely fair here. The times when you need to use an oh-shit WoG is either after you get pounded down with melee hits (rarely), this should not happen with 100% SotR uptime, predictable damage nukes, now since these nukes are predictable, you can still save BoG for them, not like the set bonus auto cast WoG for you. The only thing left is taking more unpredictable damage nukes, this is often from standing in shit, abusing mechanics for vengeance or just general failing.

    I still feel like that is what we have AD and LoH for. I already got 2 abilities for oh shit situations. If I really need a third for some fight, I can save those BoG stacks.

    What you also need to remember is that after using WoG to generate holy power, you basically instantly gets up 2 stacks of BoG, with DP you also have 43.75% chance of getting 1-2 DP procs. In a matter of a couple of seconds you should be back up on 3 stacks which is still a respectable WoG, so it is not like you are completlely giving away the opportunity of



    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It provides an interesting playstlye change, but not one that is conducive to "average" players. I wish, instead, that we had gotten bonii more in line with the DK set (2pc passively increases a minor CD, 4pc greatly increases effectiveness of a larger CD). We got the same "formula" but not the same effect.
    This is the biggest problem with the set bonus I think. I personally love it, but it terrible for the "average" players. It is really just appealing to the top paladins. It will really require you to have a great ability to maintain your rotation to get use from it.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoskadosk View Post
    If you think 2p is bad you've clearly misunderstood the whole mechanic of it.

    This would be the scenario to use it; 3 HoPo SotR to 3 stacks > stack 5 HoPo > SotR > 1 HoPo > SotR > 1 HoPo > 5 stack BoG WoG > SotR > 1 HoPo > SotR. You're now at 2 stacks of BoG, repeat the same rotation except you only do one 3 HoPo SotR to bring you back to 3 BoG until you bank 5 HoPo again.

    Once at 3 stacks of BoG and 5 HoPo banked, you're looking at 4 SotR in 4 GCDs, not counting DP procs. Still think it's bad?

    The question at hand is how to deal with DP procs and how to avoid wasted BoG stacks if one is to go with that talent. I also don't see the fascination of T15 2p + T16 2p, you're only using WoG at 1 HoPo.
    We're well aware of the mechanic of it, some people are just more interested in the potential losses (not sure how many times a 5 stack WOG saved the fuck outta my life) and the fact that it seems to promote "clever" tanking which is something Blizzard usually shys away from. Combine that with the fact that they have promoted how important a 5 stack WOG can be and how it was never meant to be used as a rotational thing and this set bonus is pretty meh even if it can be exploited for an insanely high SOTR uptime. Then again we've had 2 tiers in a row (if this doesn't change) where they tried to work WOG in as a rotational ability so maybe they're no longer of the opinion that it should be used as an oh shit button. The only thing I'm sure of at this point is that I'm unsure what Blizzards direction is with these set bonus'. They seem to promote gimmicky tank play but they've gone out of their way to cut out other tank gimmicks (/sit nerfed, veng caps next tier). I just don't know haha.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Show me one relevant log in which anything even close to that much uptime could be provided by the bonus. You only benefit when you use wog in the first place, so your baseline sotr uptime from a sim is unchanged, if you're using wog enough to cut down 30% of your sotr uptime you're playing the class wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 12:13 AM ----------

    You can scrap together some additional HP by waiting till 5 stacks, but even at my haste levels that's simply not enough giving up bastion of glory on wog.
    I cant show you any relevant log as it would require a complete change in playstyle and the T16 2p is not live yet.

    I already gone into more details about this earlier, but in short. SotR until 5 BoG. 1 HoPo WoG. SotR until 5 BoG. 1 HoPo WoG repeat.
    Using a rotation by that effectively lowers the "cost" of each SotR by 0.8, from 3 HoPo to 2.2 HoPo. If you are using DP talented, that is a bit harder to calculated but you a cast close to 2 HoPo an average per SotR, a bit lower. But that scales very interestingly with DP.

    In short, you can have 0.758% uptime on SotR without GC procs and L75 talent.
    Compare that to the previous of 0.555%, that is a huge increase. Seeing as people are seeing 75-80% uptimes with the 55% baseline, iti s fairly likely that people will be seeing 110-120%~ uptimes with the new 2p.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 02:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Using wog at 1 HP would increase returns significantly, I'll change my stance on that. The issue is though then you fully are committing to having no outs for if you spike. At 45% haste I'm looking at 67-70% sotr uptime, its fairly obvious that by next tier we'll be skirting the edges of 100% uptime without such a big sacrifice.
    I dont think the sacrisfice is huge. If you need an extra WoG you can still save BoG stacks. After using a BoG you will instantly get 2 stacks of BoG. So you will basically be juggling between 2-5 stacks at all times, so you can still have emergency WoG on top of that emergancy LoH and AD.

    Also, I would be fairly interested in how you would recieve 100% uptime in the next tier without using T16 2p. If you reached 50% haste, that 70% uptime with 45% haste of yours would become 71.7% uptime. I just dont see you bridging that last 28.3% with T16 2p.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-13 at 02:48 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Stats on the tier gear is not finalized, we can still probably take the best two and make use of it. The extra SotR uses over the "80% is 100% effective uptime" would just be pure damage at that point.
    Yeah, I'll likely be taking the 2pc if there are 2 decent pieces...we just have to wait and see which 2 those are. I'm not "against" this bonus, nor saying it's bad, just saying that it's not the messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Using wog at 1 HP would increase returns significantly, I'll change my stance on that. The issue is though then you fully are committing to having no outs for if you spike. At 45% haste I'm looking at 67-70% sotr uptime, its fairly obvious that by next tier we'll be skirting the edges of 100% uptime without such a big sacrifice.
    Right, the gaming is based around dumping a 5-stack on a 1HoPo WOG (which is still ~150-250k healing, albeit likely almost entirely overheal). But I'm in this same thought process, the risk vs reward just seems kinda....not worth it. We'll be hitting haste cap pretty easily, at which point we're looking at 80%+ (emphasis on PLUS) uptime WITH saving the bastion stacks. I guess if you really want to squeeze out a few extra ShotR casts for pure DPS reasons, then sure...but at that point, you're likely already outgearing the content, and the set bonus becomes a DPS increase, not a survival thing, which is rather counterintuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also, it is not like having the set bonus forces you to use WoG at all times. You can hold it in and not use it.
    Right, we're just discussing the ramifications of using WOG "rotationally" to eek out an extra ShotR or 3.

    Lets be completely fair here. The times when you need to use an oh-shit WoG is either after you get pounded down with melee hits (rarely), this should not happen with 100% SotR uptime, predictable damage nukes, now since these nukes are predictable, you can still save BoG for them, not like the set bonus auto cast WoG for you. The only thing left is taking more unpredictable damage nukes, this is often from standing in shit, abusing mechanics for vengeance or just general failing.
    You started that off with an either, but never discussed anything but the melee side. We all know that the melee threat (in 10's, anyway) is not our weak point. The other part of that "either" is going to be magic nukes, obviously. Here is where having that oh-shit-WOG @5 stacks shines. That's the risk vs reward of the gaming. I guess you could say that "just don't do it vs magic bosses", which is a valid suggestion. But, that just makes the set bonus a bit more lackluster (compared to other set bonii) given that we're now operating on the assumption that:
    1) The bonus helps push us from 80-90% uptime up to 100%+ uptime on ShotR when gamed
    2) Gives up the fallback of WOG to do #1
    3) Does not assist adequately with magic damage.

    Compare that to warrior or DK bonii and you'll see what I mean about how [both of] our set bonii are "lacking" in terms of benefits.

    I still feel like that is what we have AD and LoH for. I already got 2 abilities for oh shit situations. If I really need a third for some fight, I can save those BoG stacks.

    What you also need to remember is that after using WoG to generate holy power, you basically instantly gets up 2 stacks of BoG, with DP you also have 43.75% chance of getting 1-2 DP procs. In a matter of a couple of seconds you should be back up on 3 stacks which is still a respectable WoG, so it is not like you are completlely giving away the opportunity of
    I guess I just don't want to have to make excuses to make the functionality of my set bonus in order for it to be worth it. Though, it is accurate that we won't be BOG-less for long.

    This is the biggest problem with the set bonus I think. I personally love it, but it terrible for the "average" players. It is really just appealing to the top paladins. It will really require you to have a great ability to maintain your rotation to get use from it.
    And this is what makes me think that we may not see these bonuses go live in their current iteration. Then again, that godawful 4pc (that requires probably equally godawfully itemized tier) probably WOULD benefit the "baddies" or "average joes" that would use it. Perhaps that's who these are designed for, and we're all just looking at them from too high of a viewpoint.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Then again, that godawful 4pc (that requires probably equally godawfully itemized tier) probably WOULD benefit the "baddies" or "average joes" that would use it. Perhaps that's who these are designed for, and we're all just looking at them from too high of a viewpoint.
    Apparently I'm an average joe or baddie because on my 5 hr/week 1/12 heroic 10 man raid schedule I don't even have half the haste you guys have.

    Not looking for pity just pointing out yes there are different people coming here.
    Last edited by Drummerboy; 2013-06-13 at 05:12 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Apparently I'm an average joe or baddie because on my 5 hr/week 1/12 heroic 10 man raid schedule I don't even have half the haste you guys have.

    Not looking for pity just pointing out yes there are different people coming here.
    It has nothing to do with gear or raiding time. You can be 12/12 normal and still be one of the best paladins in the world. Point still stands that the 4p, especially if it is going to have "tank stats" on it, is directed straight to players that perform badly. And unless you are in the 99th percentile of paladins, consistantly ranking Top 100 on almost every fight, the 2p wont do just that much good. For those players, the 2p is likely going to be about as good(bad) as the T15 2p.

    It is not about how much haste you have, it is how you use that haste the determines if the set is good or not for you.

    So I would say.

    2p, Insane for the 99-100th percentile of paladins
    Good for the 95th-98th percentile.
    Medicore for the rest.

    4p Good for the 1-50th percentile
    Decent for the 50th-75th percentile
    Bad for the 75th to 95th percentile
    Terrible for the 95th-98th percentile.
    Completely useless for the 99th-100th percentile.

    If you are 1/13 heroic, and a great player with the worst RNG on drops, that 4p would probably still suck for you.
    If you are 13/13 heroic and you are a bad tank with BiS gear, that 4p would probably be good for you.

    Progress =/= player skill.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-13 at 05:22 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #53
    Very valid points. I'm not trying to say that "ERMAGERD I'M 13/13 with 18k haste and you plebians are below me with your avoidance sets! Tremble!".

    No.

    I'm saying that, as FF laid out, if you are skilled enough to maintain a tight rotation, you will not get much mileage out of the 4pc simply due to the plethora of subpar (or at least sub-ideal) stats that Blizz finds to put on our prot tier. This goes for someone who is 3/12N or 13/13H. If you're struggling to keep up good ShotR %, or have lots of gaps in your rotations, avoidance is not as bad for you, since it helps to cover some of the "slop" or "gaps" left by that playstyle.

    I've seen/played with people who were more advanced than me and performed terribly, just as I've seen/played with people who are behind me in progress and play amazingly.

    Progress is not always indicative of skill.

    At any rate, the point still stands that with current gearing paradigms for prot, if you're "better than average" skill-wise you'd do well to use 0-2 pieces of tier. If you're "about average", 2pc would do well for you, and if you're "below average", the stat types on tier and "traditional tank gear" is more designed for you.
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