The future of Hunter PvE

[Megazorrd]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vb7gdwzmzf8zhxzv/
More of a single target
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pd...?s=7153&e=7774
Check lei shen beat by 3 warlocks which on that fight doesn't count. These logs are close to a month old I really haven't played much since pretty bored with the game. My point is a skilled (and geared) hunter can routinely place in the top 10 on most fights.

[jax]

Hrmm interesting links because when I find you in your latest logs your well below the ones you linked from a month ago?

LeiShen: 9th
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-47...?s=8479&e=9049

Raden: 9th
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-47...=11546&e=11935

In the log you linked you did 4th in your guild and got 12th in the world.
Yet 3 weeks later you did 2k more dps you fell to 9th in your guild.
Perhaps the logs you linked were with people less geared or maybe not top line raiders? Its hard to imagine you could do 2k more dps on the second log and slip 5 spots for any other reason?

[Glurp]

I would love to see some logs where your at the top, and what does near mean? I mean 12th is near the top in a 25 man cause its closer to the top than the bottom. I am not disputing your word sir but the numbers I have seen show a very different story.

Do you actually do anything on this game apart from ask people for their logs?

Hunters are fine. you're bad and can't play a Hunter properly. Therefore your DPS is bad. End of story.

[jax]

Do you actually do anything on this game apart from ask people for their logs?

My bad, when people make false claims I ask that they show what they know. Its pretty simple and Im not sure why it would bother you one way or another that I asked 1 person for a log because I see hunter dps falling and the other person that claims hunters are great is running basically 18th in his guild...

Hunters are fine. you're bad and can't play a Hunter properly. Therefore your DPS is bad. End of story.

Yes, clearly the data showing them to be lower 3rd is wrong. Clearly I am bad because that is my experience too. Clearly seeing one of the worlds top hunters running 9th in his guild but 10th in the world on hunter friendly fights proves that only my dps is bad and thats the end of the story...

/boggle

[Glurp]

My bad, when people make false claims I ask that they show what they know. Its pretty simple and Im not sure why it would bother you one way or another that I asked 1 person for a log because I see hunter dps falling and the other person that claims hunters are great is running basically 18th in his guild...

Yes, clearly the data showing them to be lower 3rd is wrong. Clearly I am bad because that is my experience too. Clearly seeing one of the worlds top hunters running 9th in his guild but 10th in the world on hunter friendly fights proves that only my dps is bad and thats the end of the story...

/boggle

Go make your own thread then, this thread is about people who are required to spam Silencing Shot on cooldown or something. Seemingly in your eyes you need to be top on every fight to be considered a good class. Have you ever maybe thought that class mechanics and boss mechanics this tier favour a specific type of class, i.e, Multidotters? No you haven't because all you care about is the ending DPS instead of thinking about why that is the case.

tl;dr: T15 is Multidot tier, not Hunter tier.

[Deleted]

Go make your own thread then, this thread is about people who are required to spam Silencing Shot on cooldown or something. Seemingly in your eyes you need to be top on every fight to be considered a good class. Have you ever maybe thought that class mechanics and boss mechanics this tier favour a specific type of class, i.e, Multidotters? No you haven't because all you care about is the ending DPS instead of thinking about why that is the case.

tl;dr: T15 is Multidot tier, not Hunter tier.

Tbh this thread is about "The future of hunter Pve" and not a silencing shot one. Have you stopped to think that maybe what he's saying is true? That when skilled hunters are surrounded with skilled people playing other classes we go to the bottom third? That this tier is all about multi dotting I agree with you but that doesnt mean we shouldnt do way better on some fights like Jin-rokh or Iron Qon for eg. Thing is you see mages/wlocks and rogues on the top on almost all the fights, being it a single target fight or a multi dotter one.

Do you actually do anything on this game apart from ask people for their logs?

Hunters are fine. you're bad and can't play a Hunter properly. Therefore your DPS is bad. End of story.

If i was you i wouldn't call anyone a baddie, since you don't have any progress or parses to prove your not subpar. And those LFR's as MM parses dont count mate.

[Megazorrd]

My bad, when people make false claims I ask that they show what they know. Its pretty simple and Im not sure why it would bother you one way or another that I asked 1 person for a log because I see hunter dps falling and the other person that claims hunters are great is running basically 18th in his guild...

Yes, clearly the data showing them to be lower 3rd is wrong. Clearly I am bad because that is my experience too. Clearly seeing one of the worlds top hunters running 9th in his guild but 10th in the world on hunter friendly fights proves that only my dps is bad and thats the end of the story...

/boggle

Bad play and lack of any significant upgrades (still no TF weapon) on my part. Lei shen especially just bad play.
Also that raden was #1 in the world it's month old and now #12

[shanattah]

I'm "always" (if no multidotting possible) #1 in my raid but that doesn't make hunters decent, looking at raidbots we're 10th overall for damage and simcraft we're 8th (that's class not spec). So in practice and in theory we're behind other classes this tier which should be a valid concern for our future. I know Kenny says he's fine competing with the best of US but can't really see any proof anywhere.

[Poppincaps]

I've been playing a hunter for 8 years. I love the class, but the fact of the matter is, that we're in a shitty place right now. Of course, I don't mean that we do shitty dps. Our dps is fine, but we bring nothing to the table really.

Compared to our pure dps brethren we have:

Rogues: Raid CD with Smoke Bomb, Great dps, and great survivability with feint.
Warlocks: Gateway, Great survivability, Great dps, and healthstones.
Mages: Great dps

Mages are the only ones even near our situation, but the difference is that they are at the top of the totem pole when it comes to dps with Warlocks right now. We bring decent dps, no raid cooldowns, and deterrence, which is an incredible ability, but Shadow Priests have dispersion which is just as good.

I'll admit, the fights this tier have been very kind to some classes, especially with those damned Lei Shen trinkets, but I think we have room for concern. We'll have to see how the fights work out in T16, but I do think that we aren't in the best place right now.

[Damien36]

@ Megazorrd

Actually, it's 34th now. The point isn't that you aren't good, your dps is damn impressive, but if everyone in your guild was BiS and you were too, you wouldn't place higher than 10th and probably more likely 13-18. Now, having said that, you would still be doing big hunking gobs of damage, but in the grand scheme, and the WHOLE point to this thread, you would not be where you should be. We may not need giant buffs, but we need a little something. Do you agree? IF not, why not?

[Astheria]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vb7gdwzmzf8zhxzv/
More of a single target
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pd...?s=7153&e=7774
Check lei shen beat by 3 warlocks which on that fight doesn't count. These logs are close to a month old I really haven't played much since pretty bored with the game. My point is a skilled (and geared) hunter can routinely place in the top 10 on most fights.

The thing is placing top 10 for your guild on meters isn't enough when locks bring survivability, mages more dps, boomkin bring raid healing and cool downs, rogues bring smoke bomb and the deeps, warriors banner, shaman deeps and heals, paladins raid cool downs...I could go on. The point is that for a pure dps with nothing "useful" for 25mans other than dps e are lacking. We should be able to pull the numbers of mages on fights or we need a raid cool down like rogues.

The whole thing in heroic 25man raiding comes down to utility. If hunters bring nothing we can't cover with another class and can't out dps those classes, why bring a hunter and not stack the other classes? This is the reason that 2/3 hunters sat on fights like heroic council progression. We have nothing unique to bring and we sure as hell couldn't out dps the dotters. So stack chickens, spriests,mages, and locks and screw hunters. Maybe bring one for sunder armor. But more than that hell no.

[Karamok]

I don't understand why they can't just remove the blanket silence from it and turn it into an actual interrupt, that seems to be the real problem. If they did that and made the talent add the blanket silence, it would be far less mandatory, or they could just give the blanket version to MM only.

I think that makes a good suggestion. I am especially reluctant to lose the blanket silence, but I think it would be a much more reasonable trade-off. Losing our ranged interrupt altogether sounds like a nightmare for many solo situations. Just last night I interrupted Wrathion during the Celestial Blessings quest. I could live without it, but why should I if Mages, Warlocks, Shamans, Priests and Druids all have a ranged interrupt?

[Penguintamer]

We really need something to bring to a raid. The whole "you can bring any buffs that your raid is missing" excuse just doesn't work for 25 man raiding, and it isn't even entirely true when you consider that most hunters don't have access to being able to bring Bloodlust or the Quilen rez.

The fact is, all the other pure DPS'ers bring something that a 25 man wants. Rogues brings Smoke Bomb which is a great raid cooldown with 20% damage reduction. They bring Tricks of the Trade which also boosts the person's damage, and their disarm is (although situational) pretty damn useful on fights like heroic Horridon. Mages have their mage table and Time Warp, and Warlocks have healthstones, soulstone and warlock portals. And then there's countless other raid tools that other DPS'ers bring; healing and totems from DPS shamans, banners and Rallying Cry from warriors (we really need something that's on par with Rallying Cry's usefulness), and all that good stuff that Monks have.

Hunters bring... Aspect of the Pack and Misdirection. And Aspect of the Pack is useless.

With the loss of Silencing Shot and the awfulness that is the Marksmanship rotation, we're going to bring even less than before, so they really need to shape up Marksmanship because it hasn't been fun or cohesive to play since Wrath of the Lich King. The whole Aimed Shot/Arcane Shot debate needs to be gotten rid of by the Devs, and the rotation just needs to be more fun.

[jax]

Go make your own thread then, this thread is about people who are required to spam Silencing Shot on cooldown or something.

and here I thought it was The future of Hunter PVE...

Seemingly in your eyes you need to be top on every fight to be considered a good class.

Nahhh, but I would like to be on top for at least ONE fight... maybe top 5 on HALF the fights? We are a pure dps class like Mages and Locks and they dominate the top 5 on 11/13 heroic fights... why shouldnt we be comparable?

Have you ever maybe thought that class mechanics and boss mechanics this tier favour a specific type of class, i.e, Multidotters?

Have you ever maybe thought that we have heard that for the past 5 tiers? Multi dotters have been dominating since FL...

No you haven't because all you care about is the ending DPS instead of thinking about why that is the case.

How dare a pure dps class that has no raid CD to help raids care about only dps... Oh the humanity! What is the world coming to?
ROFL...
You clearly have some issues and while I dont mind you trying to take them out on me... its just coming out as nonsense. Sorry if that offends you but seriously? Your getting on to me for only caring about dps when I am a dps and can do nothing else? Seriously?? Wow...[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 12:13 AM ----------

I'm "always" (if no multidotting possible) #1 in my raid

And yet looking at your parses your not top on anyone of them, your more often 3rd to 5th out of 6 dps in your 10 man?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...one/?enc=kills

The point is that for a pure dps with nothing "useful" for 25mans other than dps e are lacking. We should be able to pull the numbers of mages on fights or we need a raid cool down like rogues.

A thousand times this! This is exactly the point I am trying to illustrate. If we are pures then we should do numbers compareable to the other pure ranged... Locks and Mages, but we dont, we are not even close and that is wrong. If we do not deserve to be close then by god give us a 3 min aspect that reduces all damage by 20% for 6 seconds too.

[sayne9]

I've been playing a hunter for 8 years. I love the class, but the fact of the matter is, that we're in a shitty place right now. Of course, I don't mean that we do shitty dps. Our dps is fine, but we bring nothing to the table really.

Compared to our pure dps brethren we have:

Rogues: Raid CD with Smoke Bomb, Great dps, and great survivability with feint.
Warlocks: Gateway, Great survivability, Great dps, and healthstones.
Mages: Great dps

Mages are the only ones even near our situation, but the difference is that they are at the top of the totem pole when it comes to dps with Warlocks right now. We bring decent dps, no raid cooldowns, and deterrence, which is an incredible ability, but Shadow Priests have dispersion which is just as good.

I'll admit, the fights this tier have been very kind to some classes, especially with those damned Lei Shen trinkets, but I think we have room for concern. We'll have to see how the fights work out in T16, but I do think that we aren't in the best place right now.

We can bring pretty much any buff/debuff out there which is incredibly useful in even the most organized 10 man group and opens up the comp a little more when you have that kind of flexibility with buffs. Also, misdirect saves lives.

When it comes to pve I don't see this as a huge loss of utility, only fight I felt it necessary was Alysrazor in Firelands. The situation where a hunter is in charge of interrupt is generally a bad situation unless you are moving a fresh add spellcaster and even then any shaman/prot pally/dk/bear/spriest/mage can also handle that.

I saw a lot of talking out of both sides of the mouth in this thread. In one post a person was saying he might lose his raid spot and the next it was about how they were casual and grabbed whoever was available so they wont be kicked but would alter their strat.

[shanattah]

And yet looking at your parses your not top on anyone of them, your more often 3rd to 5th out of 6 dps in your 10 man?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...one/?enc=kills

Linking overall boss damage when I'm not present on half the bosses? Also I'm also very surprised by the amount I got beaten by the ele shaman on jin'rokh and if u actually looked at previous logs (at the time of my statement) you'd see me first on those fights even while lacking sunder armor or 10% AS

[gulder]

We don't fulfill a niche of any kind, especially since they're making everyone somewhat mobile. We bring no raid CDs. Survivability is laughable. Not good at cleave or multitarget fights. Decent at AoE and Single target.

So why bring a hunter?

[Deleted]

Our greatest raid benefit is that we soak agi mail

[jax]

Linking overall boss damage when I'm not present on half the bosses?

?
My link was: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...one/?enc=kills
So whoever wanted to look could go to each boss themselves not to try and show your overall damage. Ill post your postions manually since there seems to be a disconnect.

Jin: 2nd out of 6
Horridon: 3rd out of 6
Counsil: 3rd out of 6
Tortos 4th out of 6
Durumu: 3 to 4th out of 6

Your clearly good but your logs do not show that you are: "I'm "always" (if no multidotting possible) #1 in my raid"

You are not top on any of the fights at all and your in a 10 man and the numbers we are discussing are 25 man.
You take your parses: basically 3rd out of 6 dps and put them in a 25 man and your doing 10th to 15th just by adding more people. If your stacking classes for CDs then your very possibly 12th to 16th...

Please do not get offended, your very good, I just keep seeing hunters say we are fine and that we arent middle of the pack and slipping and Im told no we are great, I go and check numbers for that hunter and I keep seeing exactly what I have been seeing and what the numbers are showing: Bottom third on 11/13 fights and dropping.

One guy had the balls to say how great we were and checking his numbers he was running 18th in his 25 man...
/boggle

[ihatepeople]

I'm hoping for a revamp in 6.0, but for right now all we're going to get are band-aid fixes and slight tweaks to improve our dps. As it stands right now, there is no reason to bring a hunter unless you're lacking in other (read: BETTER) classes and/or said hunter outgears everyone by a significant margin. As Truefire said in a previous thread about hunter dps (I'll edit this post and put the link in later on), the only reason to really bring a hunter during progression was so that he/she could soak up mail agi gear and/or if said hunter is a good player.

I can't say what's going to happen in the future, but for the rest of this expansion Blizz is going to continue to "turn knobs" so that hunters will be somewhat viable for raids. I don't know if hunters will be in the same position in SOO (Siege of Orgrimmar) that they were in in TOT. I hope not, but we'll see. I fear that unless hunters bring some kind of useful raid CD, they will not be brought to raids unless their dps is just too good to pass up, which hasn't happened yet.

Disclaimer: I'm talking about 25m raids here, more notable 25m raids that are doing heroic content. Hunters will ALWAYS have a spot in 10m raids due to the nature of the buffs/debuffs they can bring via pets and the fact that most 10m guilds are casual and don't have the ability (or desire) to stack the best classes.

"We brought a hunter to progression for two reasons: to soak up mail agi gear and because he is a very good player. Also, because he was able to soak up all mail agi gear, his ilvl was at least 3-5 higher than most people during progression. A hunter with better gear than most of the raid is worth a raid spot, but if we had the option, we would bring only warlocks and rogues with 525 ilvl over hunters with 532 ilvl (my warlock's ilvl vs dyv's hunter during progression)." - Truefire

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ack-quot/page5