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  1. #1

    What make mm the least?

    I know the 2 top pve specs are BM and sv. Just curious of what specifically makes mm less desirable? The less aoe damage? I love playing mm but can't be super competitive against sv or BM. And are there certain trick to play mm better? Maybe until 80% health us aimed shot as focus dump or always use arcane shot?

  2. #2
    Apart from the overall damage being lower, the spec being a little more clunky and harder to execute perfectly, it doesn't have a niche it fills that the other two specs can't fill. Survival has better AoE damage (and Beast Mastery is very close to that now as well) and Beast Mastery has better single target damage. Marksmanship's niche was higher damage above 80% but unfortunately Beast Mastery trumps that as well with it's higher burst damage at the start of a fight. Not sure if this still holds true with the Stampede nerf but I don't see it changing that much.

  3. #3
    Careful Aim and Aimed Shot.

    From 100-80%, your priority changes. BM and Survival do nothing different.

    If you get procs from Haste trinkets or get Heroism/Bloodlust, your priority changes. BM and Survival do nothing different.

    On top of an ever-changing priority system, you have to micro-manage Steady Focus, which is still annoying even with a 20s duration.

    Basically MM is impossible to play well, and it's just not worth bothering with until they make the spec more playable.

  4. #4
    In MM you need to sweat your ass off to come even close to SV or BM in single target. Close means still less.

    Besides, while BM has its burst and SV has it's AoE MM has... right.

  5. #5
    damage output is simply lower. They should buff chimera and aimed by something like 10%, or make piercing shots stronger

  6. #6
    MM would probably get used more if executing it perfectly resulted in dps higher than the other specs, but your only reward is damage that is, at best, the same but more likely worse.

  7. #7
    I think MM is the most fun spec to play out of the three and has the highest skill cap in pve. That being said, it still cant compete on single target or aoe with BM and Surv, so i play those specs for now. Ya i agree MM needs like a 10-15% buff to aimed shot and chimera shot, a buff to it's mastery, or buff piercing shots so it can compete with our other two specs. The fact that blizzard want to make all the specs competitive and just leaves MM in the dirt is kind of sad to me. Maybe next patch with better weapons MM will be able to compete...?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    Careful Aim and Aimed Shot.

    From 100-80%, your priority changes. BM and Survival do nothing different.

    If you get procs from Haste trinkets or get Heroism/Bloodlust, your priority changes. BM and Survival do nothing different.

    On top of an ever-changing priority system, you have to micro-manage Steady Focus, which is still annoying even with a 20s duration.

    Basically MM is impossible to play well, and it's just not worth bothering with until they make the spec more playable.
    See, for me this makes the spec actually interesting to play, with making changes based on changing conditions. Beast Mastery is perhaps the most boring spec of any class I've ever played. It is possible to play MM well, but even played well it can only scrape against what a BM or SV hunter can do, depending on the fight. The DPS output difference is not the gulf it was pre-5.2, such that if all the best hunters played it, you'd see it put up some decent numbers. But the difference is enough that min/max players don't see a need to use it, which then leads to virtually no one using it, which leads to its abysmal score on sites like Raidbots.

    I don't know how I feel about the niche argument, because if you have three specs and two categories then inevitably someone will get left out. Today it is MM, but if you give MM, say, Piercing Shots to Multi such that it beats out SV on AoE, well, where does that leave SV? This is more of a design problem that Blizzard needs to solve.

  9. #9
    More unforgiving to play.

    No niche (single target sharpshooter spec that doesn't even have the best single target)

    Aimed Shot being relatively weak while Blizzard keeps forcing Arcane Shot as the dump of choice. Yesterday's hotfix effectively killed the Aimed Shot dumping after 11k Haste which was giving Marksmanship a pulse and signs of life while it also increased the gap between it and Surv/Beast. Arcane Shot change next tier and the set bonuses will also further prevent Aimed Shot from being the dump of choice.

    The main reason Marksmanship was great last expansion was because of Aimed Shot. Once you reached the point where Aimed Shot was a better dump, Marksmanship scaled much better from that point on by receiving higher return on Critical Strike and Agility gains through the very high weapon damage and AP coefficients on top of Piercing Shots benefit. Aimed Shot now is basically "meh" and everytime it's popped up as a viable dump, it can't maintain it through either losing a set bonus allowing it or hotfixes killing it.

    Marksmanship in the current design just simply lacks damage, lacks a niche, and lacks flavor. There's basically no reason to play it over the other specs and Blizzard has so far taken no steps to boosting its damage or giving it flavor.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-06-16 at 10:39 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    Aimed Shot now is basically "meh" and everytime it's popped up as a viable dump, it can't maintain it through either losing a set bonus allowing it or hotfixes killing it.

    Marksmanship in the current design just simply lacks damage, lacks a niche, and lacks flavor. There's basically no reason to play it over the other specs and Blizzard has so far taken no steps to boosting its damage or giving it flavor.
    To expand on this, what also sucks is that the very resource we need to make it a viable focus dump works negatively by increasing our focus regen, thereby requiring less Steady Shots, thereby procking less MMM. It would make more sense to just give MMM procs based on something different entirely, like shooting 5 consecutive Arcane Shots, or standing still for XYZ time (just silly examples).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    To expand on this, what also sucks is that the very resource we need to make it a viable focus dump works negatively by increasing our focus regen, thereby requiring less Steady Shots, thereby procking less MMM. It would make more sense to just give MMM procs based on something different entirely, like shooting 5 consecutive Arcane Shots, or standing still for XYZ time (just silly examples).
    Aimed as focus dump seems to be sort of an anomaly that arose in Cata, and worked some of the time then and was tolerated by Blizzard, yet many of the changes that MoP introduced directly negatively influence the viability of using Aimed as the focus dump.

    Since there's practically zero chance Arcane Shot will go away as primary focus dump this expansion, it would be nice if Master Marksman stacked off of autoshot, which would have a bonus of making Aimed! procs happen more often than never in PvP.

  12. #12
    Well.. with the arcane change.. mm's hope of seeing the light just vanished. Just like what the others are posting, people respecting to haste benefits MM as the time will come that Aimed Shot could actually be the focus dump for MM hunters, but now i don't think is going to happen.

    MM's AOE is sooooooooooooooo weak aswell.

    The CA phase for me, was never fixed since it was nerfed, It never really worked the way it should. Yes I know that pre nerf it was too strong as you can almost 1 shot every mob pre nerf during WoTLK, but thats what make MM works to compensate its low damage output compared to BM and SV. Im not saying that they bring it back to what it was pre nerf, but i think they should rework in reverse like. When a mobs health reaches 30% or lower, CA phase kicks in and your Aimed Shot when fired during CA phase will have a reduced casting time and have its damage increased. Something like that.

    If ever MM do become a viable spec again i think it would be in wow 5.5 up, now that they have rolled out 5.4 i don't see MM being a viable spec. SV will still the the top overall spec

  13. #13
    Hardcasting aimed shot outside of careful aim is a dps loss even during haste buffs like rapid fire or bloodlust and with the recent buff to arcane shot I wouldn't be surprised if it was a dps loss to hardcast it during careful aim aswell... this is not cataclysm where aimed shot hit hard.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Emfg's Avatar
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    Overall less damage, pretty much.

    BM has superior burst with Bestial Wrath and superior sustained damage with pets. Survival has superior AoE and superior sustained burst damage with explosive shot, while MM is just... meh.

    Steady Shot should be buffed tbh. Compared to cobra shot it does shit damage. Buffing arcane shot for MM only would also be sweet IMO. Makes it feel more like a marksman, rather than a dumbed down version of BM or Survival.

    Also, buff aimed shot. Not only does it do pathetic damage in PvE, but in PvP it does neglectable damage aswell...

  15. #15
    Even though MM is the shitty spec of this xpac, I'm going to put my offspec as MM and try it out on farm bosses. The loss of dps won't make us wipe, and haven't tried MM with Arcane Shot as focus dump (prefer hardcast aimed shot). Even though I'm at almost 12k haste, the buff arcane shot got means that hardcasting aimed shot will result in a loss of dps. 2 arcane shots > 1 aimed shot, costs less, doesnt "stop" auto shots...
    If blizz for some reason buffed aimed shot...

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk Sett's Avatar
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    MM is chunky and still will not perform at the numbers the other two specs do. ( Chunky for rotation/abilites/procs. )

    BM flows out easier because you have the work done by your pet and SV has been given a lot more grace in its scaling and rotation. One also has burst which MM sadly doesn't quite have anymore. MM utilizes a few things for decent PVP but... I don't see why you wouldn't take the higher burst unless you can correctly juggle through MM.

    And as others have said before on here, the AoE hits like a wet noodle.

  17. #17
    The clunkiness is irrelevant. The rotation is very similar to what it was from 4.0 to 4.2, when marks was the best spec outside of a few AoE fights and virtually every hunter played marks. Marks is the lowest because it does the lowest damage. No need to make it more complicated than that.

  18. #18
    i find the MM rotation fine, it's just doing "less" damage. No matter what GC says it sims less and in game it just does less. Instead of running the numbers and fixing it properly they are just going to tack on more abilities they don't want the most played specs to have, silencing shot and binding shot. It will give MM a niche role and then they will pat themselves on the back and say job well done. Unless something dramatically changes don't except to see MM close to surv or bm for the rest of this expansion.

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Sett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    The clunkiness is irrelevant. The rotation is very similar to what it was from 4.0 to 4.2, when marks was the best spec outside of a few AoE fights and virtually every hunter played marks. Marks is the lowest because it does the lowest damage. No need to make it more complicated than that.
    Clunkiness can deter people from ever picking up MM in the first place. Less logs, less attention. Topple that with the low damage from such a learning curve doesn't help the spec. But, I agree with you on most everything else.

  20. #20
    There are several large problems with MM.

    The one big complaint you hear is about it being "clunky". This stems from the focus chunks we spend and earn. MM builds focus 14 at a time, and spends it 50 at time.

    Careful Aim is arbitrary and stupid. ISS is arbitrary and stupid. They have always been arbitrary and stupid.


    Unique tools each spec had in Cata:

    BM:
    20% larger focus pool, making it mush easier and more forgiving for newer players. Still in game.
    Access to exotic pets, a big favourite of the casual masses. Still in game.
    Large front-loaded damage from the pet making personal rotation errors have less impact. Still in game.

    SV:
    Entrapment - Still unique to the spec
    Serpent Spread - Still unique to the spec.
    Hunting Party - now a pet buff for all spec.
    Wyvern Sting - All specs now.

    MM:
    Readiness - All specs now.
    Silencing Shot - All specs now.
    Posthaste - All specs now.
    Trueshot Aura - All Specs now.
    Marked for Death - All specs now.


    Bliz need to completely re-work CA and ISS, making engaging mechanics that don't exist as a result of compromise after compromise.
    Remove Intimidation from the game. Having 4 CC/interrupts across 3 specs is pretty darn stupid.
    Be slightly more forgiving on the focus cost of MM signatures.
    Find some unique flavour for the MM spec, as everything was removed in 5.0. Removing spells from other specs to make MM unique is not the solution.
    Last edited by Carlaena; 2013-06-17 at 10:23 AM.

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