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  1. #41
    I hope they make it worth using in PvP again.
    Still waiting for Hemo trigger Sanguinery Vein... to improve the current clunky playstyle of subtlety...

  2. #42
    Could a mod please change the name of this topic? It's been on the front page for a long time, and it's factually wrong.

  3. #43
    I'm not seeing how recup is bad. Say if you have 400k health then every 3 seconds you will get 20k health if you have the glyph. If your a druid and you are using a game CD for the heal after predatory swiftness occurs then you get around 24k, but thats not every 3 seconds. If your a warrior and use the impending victory talent you can heal for 80k every 30 seconds. The rogue will get over 200k every 30 seconds with recup and glyphed. How is recup not a huge healing spell?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fowillia View Post
    I'm not seeing how recup is bad. Say if you have 400k health then every 3 seconds you will get 20k health if you have the glyph. If your a druid and you are using a game CD for the heal after predatory swiftness occurs then you get around 24k, but thats not every 3 seconds. If your a warrior and use the impending victory talent you can heal for 80k every 30 seconds. The rogue will get over 200k every 30 seconds with recup and glyphed. How is recup not a huge healing spell?
    well 3 seconds are enough to global someone so recup is worth shit we all know how it works and how shitty it is other classes have instant heals and for a lower price we have to spend our precious CP's which results in a dps loss on our target this skill is only for old raid bosses ^^
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    well 3 seconds are enough to global someone so recup is worth shit we all know how it works and how shitty it is other classes have instant heals and for a lower price we have to spend our precious CP's which results in a dps loss on our target this skill is only for old raid bosses ^^
    Recup is maybe more useless than expose armor

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by fowillia View Post
    I'm not seeing how recup is bad. Say if you have 400k health then every 3 seconds you will get 20k health if you have the glyph. If your a druid and you are using a game CD for the heal after predatory swiftness occurs then you get around 24k, but thats not every 3 seconds. If your a warrior and use the impending victory talent you can heal for 80k every 30 seconds. The rogue will get over 200k every 30 seconds with recup and glyphed. How is recup not a huge healing spell?
    400,000 / 3% is 12000.

    Its 20k/3 with pvp gloves + glyph + 400k HP, in

    The heal is awful for the cost, simple as that; it should heal ever 1/2 seconds and either cost no energy or combo points.

  7. #47
    I really don't think recup is "useless". However, it's not very good on live, which is probably why we are seeing buffs.

    Honestly, the move is ok in solo content on live. It's pathetic in raiding (if you want to know this for sure, keep it up 100% of the time on a heavy aoe damage fight, and notice how little effective healing it does just to YOU versus, say, the effective healing a shadow priest does to himself, never mind the rest of the raid, by actually DOING damage), and the big gripe people have is that it's pretty trash in arena.

    A lot of this is because of the kill cycles being so tight. If you can go from 100% to 0% in about 6 seconds, then you are looking at, at most, two ticks of recuperate. The old improved recuperate offered 6% damage reduction- and that more than doubled the value of the spell when you were locked into a kill attempt on you. I really don't see why that didn't get baked into baseline, instead of being first put as a talent, then deleted.

    Second, the bigger issue is that the hot part itself can barely help against overall pressure, which is what the move is meant to actually counter- and that's because the move doesn't do what it says. The "battle fatigue" debuff mysteriously and nonsensically applies to recovery done by this move, as if it were the healing from a healer's spells. The whole point of battle fatigue was to scale PvE healing down substantially in PvP, because the giant heals needed in PvE are very disruptive in PvP. But recuperate was never that kind of heal. While healing basically doubled from before, recuperate actually got weaker. While classes that have percent damage reductions kept those (5.4 is changing this, and it's probably not even that wise), our version was stripped out, AND the heal got nerfed by a ludicrous amount. Simply put, there's no way a percent heal should be reduced by battle fatigue. The rationale given for this was that second wind was too strong (and it certainly was and probably still is), but the fix for that is to correctly balance the new move. Nerfing a core rogue ability because some new warrior talent is OP is pretty much exactly the kind of design we don't want to see happening.

    Third, and least of all, is the definitely increased pressure of keeping junk up in PvP. While a sub rogue has always benefited from having up a hemo debuff, a rupture, slice and dice, and recuperate, in modern play this has become silly, because the rupture and the slice and dice are now mandatory to do damage, and the hemo debuff, the only easy one, is just a small dot, while recuperate has no offensive benefit at all. Previously, you COULD do a reasonable kill cycle with just recup active- now you 100% need the first two, which offer no defensive benefit. This whole expac I've been of the opinion that energetic recovery should actually trigger as long as EITHER slice and dice OR recuperate is active. This nerf, while intended at the time, was a terrible idea from the start, and also disrupted PvE. For those who haven't connected the dots, the ONLY reason SangV doesn't trigger on hemo is because of this change. Sub PvE would be not very interesting with exactly one long term buff to maintain. Previously, recup was the other buff- now rupture is the second thing, and it's pretty damned obnoxious. This was a terrible change, and it's been making rogue PvP pretty much limited to gib comps or nonexistent this whole expac.


    Anyway, on live- we see 3% baseline, 0.5% with a glyph no one uses, and 1% with the gloves. That's 4.5%, decently useful for questing, but in arena it is down to 2.475%, which is a dumb joke. In 5.4, we'll see it at 4% baseline, 1% with a glyph that might actually see use, and 1% more with the gloves. That will be 6% if you glyph it or 5% if you don't, which turns into 3.3% or 2.75%.

    The old version was 4% with a 6% damage reduction. If you had a kill cycle on you that involved three ticks of recuperate and your health was, say, 100,000, then you would gain back 12% life during that (12,000) and mitigate (6000), and the recup would have effectively healed you for 18,000. With the modern setup, if you had the glyph, that same kill cycle on you would see recuperate heal you for 18,000 * 0.55 = 9,900.

    So this buff basically takes its worth in a realistic PvP situation up to over half as good as it was in cata, versus the 1/3rd it is on live. It's a definite buff.






    Also at some point they changed the icon for seal fate. It like rules now? Seriously everyone, did you guys all notice this? It's totally a ninja now.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-06-29 at 04:05 PM.

  8. #48
    Recoup also takes a pretty big nerf from battle fatigue and pvp power really doesn't do enough to overcompensate for it. Hybrids like boomkin got a buff to their healing but rogues and warriors with their passive 3% heals don't get full use out of pvp power.

    In a raid situation is absolute garbage. A 5 point ability heals me for 30% of my health... over 30 seconds. There's not a single raid encounter that this could help out with and using it personnaly I think is actually detrimental to a raids success since it vastly lowers a rogue's DPS making it harder to kill bosses. Healing for ~13k every 3 seconds with a health pool of 400K + and boss fights that even low pulsing aoe damage does well over 10% makes this very expensive and costly heal worthless. Think Tortos where you take a big chunk of damage (reduced if you're good with feint) with quake stomp and then a spam of ~60kish damages over the next few seconds. Recoup does absolutely nothing to help mitigate that.

    As a 5 point finisher even if it regened 30% of your health or 20% or whatever instantly that's honestly not that strong vs its cost. Especially as assassination which most raiding rogues are. As assassination if you don't use a finisher correctly IE refreshing rupture or keeping up envenom aside from losing out on the dps from say an envenom it drops your dps by a ton since either you don't have rupture rolling making your energy dog shit or your envenom debuff falls off and your passive dps takes a nose dive.

    Recoup just takes too long to "use". 30 seconds for 30% health is fairly ridiculous when you think of how fast any thing in the game can drop you 30%. In pvp if you get focused you die within a few seconds. In arena burst can take you down from 100% to 0 unless you have a healer spamming you or you trinket/run away and hide. In pve too much raid damage goes out and recoup just cant keep up or even make much of a difference. If you drop 30% in pve which is very common say you pop recoup. Even if you have a druid casting rejuv/wildgrowth and that's it you'll still heal that 30% within a few seconds and get topped off again let alone the random healing going out all over the place.

    Make it heal 30% of your health with a 30 second CD. Any way you look at it cost vs gain it needs a buff. Warriors get a passive 3% heal sub 35% where they don't have to do anything at all except get free heals. It should be stronger than impending victory since every 30 seconds warriors get a free attack that does damage and heals vs losing a crap ton of potential damage and getting a piss poor heal. Even conversion isn't as costly.

    Personally this ability needs a massive revamp. It's the only ability that honestly from a pve aspect using it makes you a worse player and more of a burden on the raid. If it was a burst 30% heal that'd be different although still not preferable. 3% over 30 seconds is just to slow.

    The only thing this is useful is when out questing/doing dailies and you can keep a single recoup/snd rolling with deadly momentum glyph.

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
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    Recoup is awesome for glass cannon rogues... name me a class that cannot global a rogue in 6 seconds (2 recoup ticks)... oh trust me, those 30k health will really make a difference. Meanwhile rogues sprint is also super huge... 8 second - 70% speed boost... lolol what in the fuck, does Blizz literally sit around and figure out how to make rogues worse and worse. What about our team buff? Do I have to sit around and watch spam for challenge modes asking for specific team buffs and think to myself - oh I hope they need my rogue team buff... oh wait.
    Last edited by slime; 2013-06-29 at 05:44 PM.

  10. #50
    Rogues are desirable in challenge mode. Shroud of concealment means your team can avoid using invis potions, which means more dps potions. This is unique to rogues.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Rogues are desirable in challenge mode. Shroud of concealment means your team can avoid using invis potions, which means more dps potions. This is unique to rogues.
    and still recup sucks ballz even IF we are desired for CM
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Meanwhile rogues sprint is also super huge... 8 second - 70% speed boost... lolol what in the fuck, does Blizz literally sit around and figure out how to make rogues worse and worse. What about our team buff? Do I have to sit around and watch spam for challenge modes asking for specific team buffs and think to myself - oh I hope they need my rogue team buff... oh wait.
    Do we really need to go there? We're talking about recup - which I think most of us agree is really ridiculously weak in any application right now - but I can't imagine why you'd want to extend the discussion to whining other aspects of rogue PvP... or how we suck in PvE (because we don't).

    With the current design I really don't see a place for it (recup). Having it as the buff for PvP gloves seems especially bizarre - that bonus is, by definition, nerfed by arenas... is really awkward. The PvP-buffed, new, glyphed recup could see a serious use in PvE on occasion - for fights with long sustained healing requirements. Really, however, that would remain a tradeoff that PvE won't see a high use for because it costs a significant amount of damage to do less healing - what would work better, as has been mentioned before, would be a talent alternatively along the lines of "Recuperate is free and acts as though it has 5 CP once a minute" as a choice in place of Leeching Poison. It would have some serious drawbacks compared to elusiveness and cheat death, but I might actually use it, sometime, for some fight as assassination. Garalon, maybe. I'm not really sure 1 recup > 15% damage reduction on stomp (x2) and 30% on several seconds of Pheromones... but it might be.

  13. #53
    Dreadlord joepesci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    make this ability a CD of 30 it ticks for 6% every 3rd second take it off GCD remove all glyphs for extra healing so its 10 ticks in total for 60% of total health since we have a healing debuff in pvp it would still be uter garbage BUT it would not waste precious combo points

    every other class has some kind of an ability to heal themeselves up without anything to suffer we have to waste combo points to maintain a heal which is crap thats whats wrong with rogues these days

    That is not true:

    DK: conversion consumes RP, reduces RP generation and also consumes one talent slot
    Hunter: consumes one talent slot
    Warrior: consumes one talent slot

    Though I agree that DPS selfhealing shoudln't be like 100 times less than what a healer can output.
    Healer healing needs to be drastically nerfed, and all pure DPS specs should have selfheals that are about as good as the warriors second wind.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by joepesci View Post
    That is not true:

    DK: conversion consumes RP, reduces RP generation and also consumes one talent slot
    Hunter: consumes one talent slot
    Warrior: consumes one talent slot

    Though I agree that DPS selfhealing shoudln't be like 100 times less than what a healer can output.
    Healer healing needs to be drastically nerfed, and all pure DPS specs should have selfheals that are about as good as the warriors second wind.
    i would gladly give up one talent slot to get a decent selfhealing spell remove leeching poison and give us something more usefull
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    The PvP-buffed, new, glyphed recup could see a serious use in PvE on occasion - for fights with long sustained healing requirements.
    I really super have to disagree with this.


    I've looked at healing (both effective and total) on fights where I keep recup up the whole time. We aren't within spitting distance of it mattering for healer mana or healer pressure. If you want to help healer mana, glyphed elufeint being up the whole time is frigging massive (and offers a corresponding dps loss), but recup is very very hard to find a spot for. If you look at the cooldowns hybrids have- such as Nature's Vigil, or the shaman one, or the spriest trick, or honestly just the monk trick- these not only generate far more healing on the individual character, but they also affect the raid.

    Elusiveness matters. Leeching Poison can, but usually is overheal garbage. Recup is legit poor- even with the buffs- in a raid.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 10:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    i would gladly give up one talent slot to get a decent selfhealing spell remove leeching poison and give us something more usefull
    Leeching poison SHOULD be good. Here's some versions that don't suck:

    1)- It's called "leeching poisons". It modifies wound and deadly. Now they heal you every time they deal damage, instead of a fraction based on your dps.
    2)- Leeching poison now applies a hot to you as you deal damage. It's a rolling hot that lasts for like 10 seconds, so if you are stunned, you have some heals during it.
    3)- Leeching poisons just heals for a hell of a lot more. It's really only decent under a VERY constrained set of conditions, and it wouldn't be so bad if it was actually overpowered during those conditions, in exchange for it actually being worth using ever.






    But I bet they just nerf feint.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    and still recup sucks ballz even IF we are desired for CM
    You shouldn't be using recuperate in challenge modes. Unavoidable damage is roughly twice what it is on heroic (and damage in heroics is a joke, so that isn't saying much). Only avoidable damage really hurts in CMs and, well, you should be avoiding it.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I've looked at healing (both effective and total) on fights where I keep recup up the whole time. We aren't within spitting distance of it mattering for healer mana or healer pressure. If you want to help healer mana, glyphed elufeint being up the whole time is frigging massive (and offers a corresponding dps loss), but recup is very very hard to find a spot for. If you look at the cooldowns hybrids have- such as Nature's Vigil, or the shaman one, or the spriest trick, or honestly just the monk trick- these not only generate far more healing on the individual character, but they also affect the raid.
    Doubling healing output is a bit further than spitting distance - but I was trying to use that as an example of how ridiculously far you need to stretch to make it maybe useful sometime. We'd never drop down to 496 gear for a bonus - 50 ilevels is WAY too big a price to hop for a recup bonus; you'd throw out most of the survival losing the stam >.>.

    I wouldn't be 100% surprised to see it revamped in the survival tier, as I mentioned earlier - but I'd much rather see your ideas for leeching poison get used, because recuperate feels mechanically outdated as well as underwhelming. A long-ticking HoT is the primary reason we're seeing so many changes this expansion to restoration druids; making our survival mechanic an even longer HoT just guarantees we're either dead or overhealing. The only alternatives (for PvE!) are prevention (absorbs, like EF from pallies or DA from priests, or even living seed/Gift of Cenarius/Earth Shield/Sacred Shield), or making it heal in a really short burst, like healing the same amount... over 5 seconds instead of 30 (the new, buffed version. With the PvP glove bonus, without the gloves. With the glyph).

  18. #58
    Eternal flame is a HoT, not an absorb, a decently long duration HoT too (but a good chunk of its healing comes from an upfront instant part). Sacred Shield is the absorb talent.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Eternal flame is a HoT, not an absorb, a decently long duration HoT too (but a good chunk of its healing comes from an upfront instant part). Sacred Shield is the absorb talent.
    Half up front, and, since it's pretty much the realm of holy, it applies an absorb based on mastery (making them effective at blanket shielding a CM or raid with 1-HP EFs, unless they nerfed that already, as they've been talking about, but I don't follow holy paladins very closely). "Half up front" would be a good start, and throwing ~30% of the healed amount into an extra absorb would be a lot closer to making it a viable spell-cast as even overhealing would have some effect. Should have mentioned that I was referring specifically to the use by Holy in my first post, sorry for the confusion.

    Edit: shadowboy is right, of course. You can withdraw EF from the example... there are plenty of others.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-06-30 at 05:22 PM.

  20. #60
    Well in that case, the bubble comes from holy's mastery and has nothing to do with EF. as it is, they could spam WoG and blanket the raid with bubbles, too. EF really only acts to re-apply/extend the bubble due to the HoT ticks.

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