View Poll Results: Should we strive to eliminate culture?

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  • Yes

    100 21.51%
  • No

    342 73.55%
  • Undecided

    23 4.95%
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  1. #161
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    According to Carl Jung that would open a vacuum for something else which might be even worse.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    I find it a tad bit scarier when someone tells me "I believe in X, because Y says so" rather than someone who uses reason, ethic & logic to describe and motivate why they believe in Z.
    Has that happened a lot to you? I find from personal experience it's similar to learning a language. Once you understand it then you can also translate and find equivalents in yours. That's why a purely material and analytic approach won't work well.

    And yeah, religion can't eradicated in the manner OP probably thinks. You can't force people to abandon their beliefs, they have to learn themselves, but that doesn't mean we can't try and help them along the way. So basically, I believe the right way of combating beliefs such as these is to;

    1. Education
    2. Encourage discussions
    3. More science
    Science and education alone only works for a limited group of religious people but will filter out others. Those using religion as foundation for a materialist view and way of life that is. You'll need to speak the language of psychology and philosophy to get anywhere with the rest. But as long as we have not explained the universe, the time before it and the reason for existence we will have to live with the fact that religions will exist. In the near future you will only manage to diminish its importance on all aspects of life over time in your country but it may happen on global scale as well...in a few millennia.
    Last edited by Ravenblade; 2013-06-14 at 01:30 PM. Reason: blargh
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  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    AThe most interesting part of statements like this is the ingrained assumption that no religion can possibly acknowledge science in any way, or be reasonably practiced by someone who is educated and willing to debate the subject.
    Education, and particularly science education, is inversely correlated with religiosity. Understanding biology really is a deathblow to literalist reading of religious texts; some people manage to it anyway, but that's through massive cognitive dissonance, not genuine reconciliation of ideas. I don't think anyone thinks that increasing general science education will poof away religions, but I think it'll dull their impact.
    Last edited by Spectral; 2013-06-14 at 01:54 PM.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    Has that happened a lot to you? I find from personal experience it's similar to learning a language. Once you understand it then you can also translate and find equivalents in yours. That's why a purely material and analytic approach won't work well.



    Science and education alone only works for a limited group of religious people but will filter out others. Those using religion as foundation for a materialist view and way of life that is. You'll need to speak the language of psychology and philosophy to get anywhere with the rest. But as long as we have not explained the universe, the time before it and the reason for existence we will have to live with the fact that religions will exist. In the near future you will only manage to diminish its importance on all aspects of life over time in your country but it may happen on global scale as well...in a few millennia.
    I really have a simple belief, I live my life in accordance with that which is most likely true. Religion doesn't offer me this, thus I don't subscribe to religion. And just because science can't answer all the questions doesn't mean I get to make up my own rules. When science doesn't have an answer, you go with what science does know and you make a prediction based on those scientific facts. That way ensures that you are making the most correct possible decision. I'm also more comfortably with saying "I don't know" rather than "X did it" which is just sheer arrogance.

    I believe some people can be reasoned with & others can be ridiculed, to change their views. Both methods work.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  5. #165
    No. How could you even ask such a thing? That is how dystopias are ran. I do think it is a good idea for everyone to learn a single language, but not eliminate the other languages just because everyone doesn't speak them. And culture and religion? Why? Because they are "dangerous" to the "progression" of the human race? Bullshit.

    I like my culture and my religion, and I think I'll keep them.

  6. #166
    Stupid concept. People are not solitary animals no matter what the emo goth in your highschool stairway tell you. Take people, place them in proximity and they will tend to gravitate toward organized groups. Take organized groups and put them together and they tend to gravitate toward communities. Etc, etc, etc.

    Countries are just organized groups of people wherein the majority seek security, power and stability in comparison to the country next to them. You will always have splintering, you will always have divisiveness and fragmentation of the majority. You will never attain this scientific technocracy you so desperately wish to have because at the end of the day even science the golden child of these discussions is based on the concept of splintering from the majority. As long as people seek to be better then everyone not themselves, you cannot have peace.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    I really have a simple belief, I live my life in accordance with that which is most likely true. Religion doesn't offer me this, thus I don't subscribe to religion. And just because science can't answer all the questions doesn't mean I get to make up my own rules. When science doesn't have an answer, you go with what science does know and you make a prediction based on those scientific facts. That way ensures that you are making the most correct possible decision. I'm also more comfortably with saying "I don't know" rather than "X did it" which is just sheer arrogance.

    I believe some people can be reasoned with & others can be ridiculed, to change their views. Both methods work.
    See, and not all religions/denominations are about contesting science. For many religion is a transcendental concept rather than a material concept - ways of life are changing, science is changing but yet you will find religions or denominations of it which have been pretty much unchanged and who only may have to change little at all in future. So all in all I still believe your target is merely the one trying still to convey the universe is 6,000 years old who may or may not be convinced with facts but those who already acknowledged those facts long time ago and still continue to practise their faith are hardly worth your time as they are not competing with you and are out of your league.
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    See, and not all religions/denominations are about contesting science. For many religion is a transcendental concept rather than a material concept - ways of life are changing, science is changing but yet you will find religions or denominations of it which have been pretty much unchanged and who only may have to change little at all in future. So all in all I still believe your target is merely the one trying still to convey the universe is 6,000 years old who may or may not be convinced with facts but those who already acknowledged those facts long time ago and still continue to practise their faith are hardly worth your time as they are not competing with you and are out of your league.
    This is actually my biggest worry. I want to live in a world were we make decisions based on that this is our only life, and that it is a valuable life we have. That our actions will have consequences, and that we can measure those actions to be good and/or bad and take responsibility for them. So those kind of people are very much my "targets".

    Some people are almost impossible to get through, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying.
    Last edited by Dezerte; 2013-06-14 at 03:20 PM.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    This is actually my biggest worry. I want to live in a world were we make decisions based on that this is our only life, and that it is a valuable life we have. That our actions will have consequences, and that we can measure those actions to be good and/or bad and take responsibility for them. So those kind of people are very much my "targets".

    Some people are almost impossible to get through, but that doesn't mean we should give up discussing.
    So you oppose YOLO as well? Transcendental does not mean to waste one's life, ignore consequences and don't enjoy life at all or make other's lives miserable. On the contrary. The extreme factions would like to do that yes, and that's actually going back to material mode. They are pretty much your targets and rightly so but otherwise it is pretty much supplemental and not substitutional.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    So you oppose YOLO as well? Transcendental does not mean to waste one's life, ignore consequences and don't enjoy life at all or make other's lives miserable. On the contrary. The extreme factions would like to do that yes, and that's actually going back to material mode. They are pretty much your targets and rightly so but otherwise it is pretty much supplemental and not substitutional.
    All religious people are my "targets", the more extreme ones are of course of bigger concern, but nonetheless, all religious people are my "targets". If these people lived in a vacuum where they couldn't affect anyone, I'd have no problems with whatever belief they have. But since none of us live a vacuum and we all interact with each other, what your beliefs are will affect & shape who you are. And that is why I care, and will continue to try and change people's ways, because I want to live in a world where we make decisions based on what is most likely true, in order to achieve the best possible result. And not what we feel is true.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  11. #171
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    The internet is stupid anyways. Of course we shouldn't get rid of culture and religion, yeezus mayun.

  12. #172
    The more important question to the OP is: "Can you eliminate culture, language and religion?"

    If you wipe out the entire human race, then yes you can eliminate these three things.
    Other than that, then no.

  13. #173
    Reading this is kinda funny, all the people spouting about how the world will be better without Religion. What if everyone had the exact same religion? And I mean exact same. Like no religion what so ever, there wouldn't be conflict caused by a difference of beliefs.
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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Reading this is kinda funny, all the people spouting about how the world will be better without Religion. What if everyone had the exact same religion? And I mean exact same. Like no religion what so ever, there wouldn't be conflict caused by a difference of beliefs.
    Really, try putting 100 pastors from the same religion in the same room. You'll have wild disagreements, because religious beliefs are very shaped by our personal bias, even if technically they should all believe the same things.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Reading this is kinda funny, all the people spouting about how the world will be better without Religion. What if everyone had the exact same religion? And I mean exact same. Like no religion what so ever, there wouldn't be conflict caused by a difference of beliefs.
    Lets make everyone catholic, no group of people will want to break away from the church and form their own religious views towards god.

    Oh wait.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 05:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Religion is responsible for the greatest evils men have ever committed. Trying to argue that religion is a prerequisite for good is like arguing that Hitler was right. He formed an alliance with the Catholic church and systematically exterminated an entire ethnic group because he thought it was God's work.

    I'm sorry, but just because you have this belief in a very benign version of a religion, doesn't mean that religion itself isn't the worst invention man has ever devised.
    I don't think someone getting some members of a church to agree to a political alliance is a good example by any means of all religion as a whole is evil.

    Factoring in the good that religion has done to make the world better isn't being "benign" And if I understand you, you are implying that since people can use religion or religious figures to commit evil, religion is a great evil. I wonder why you don't feel the same about guns. To be frank, it seems hypocritical.
    Last edited by THE Bigzoman; 2013-06-14 at 08:52 PM.

  16. #176
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    Feck no! To all three. Some things are bad but overall they are what make us human.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Not that I subscribe to the idea that without religion there wouldn't still be conflicts, but that also means without religion there'll still be good. You can't both have the cake & eat it. Either religion is responsible for both evil & good, or it probably doesn't matter that much.

    And you see, that's exactly what scares me. That there are people out there, who's reason for doing good is because their religious beliefs tells them so. I find that very scary and immoral.
    I didn't establish my sarcasm that well in that post.

    I never said that Religion was good overall. Religion is responsible for evil and good.

    My quibble was that people commonly cite the evil wrongs religion is somewhat responsible for and cite it as justification for it's eradication while completely factoring out the good religion has done for the world

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    All religious people are my "targets", the more extreme ones are of course of bigger concern, but nonetheless, all religious people are my "targets". If these people lived in a vacuum where they couldn't affect anyone, I'd have no problems with whatever belief they have. But since none of us live a vacuum and we all interact with each other, what your beliefs are will affect & shape who you are. And that is why I care, and will continue to try and change people's ways, because I want to live in a world where we make decisions based on what is most likely true, in order to achieve the best possible result. And not what we feel is true.
    Assuming decisions made out of their beliefs will always contradict yours based on what you know to be true. You never know their beliefs until they tell and you would never know whether a decision made was because they shared a similar subset of beliefs which you are sharing or because of the supplemental ones which you don't share. Also as I said if it's supplemental they may still share you materialist-scientific views in matters materialism and science but if they are going to belief something in addition to that and you have no pendant to that on your side then how can you tell it's automatically having a negative effect on you? And moreover why would that be worth combating it even when it has no tangible effect on you at all...unless you are paranoid about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Really, try putting 100 pastors from the same religion in the same room. You'll have wild disagreements, because religious beliefs are very shaped by our personal bias, even if technically they should all believe the same things.
    First off pastor is usually only a title used in Protestant Christianity which is a major division within one religion. And naturally humans may disagree on individual basis. But I have seen meetings with more than 100 pastor and some of them with different denominations. The closer the discussion to the core tenets the less disagreements you will find and almost none of the wild one. You will only find disagreements within major denominations or divisions but even so dialogue is quite common these days. But assuming there would only be one religion then there would only have to be one denomination as well for the true homogeneity effect and then disagreements will become very little. It's a matter of how it is organized anyway. If it's centralized then disagreements will be none. If it's decentralized then disagreements may eventually be purged in one big synodal meeting.
    Last edited by Ravenblade; 2013-06-14 at 08:38 PM.
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  19. #179
    Don't worry, once the Emperor of Mankind arrives with the Primarchs and their legions the only culture will be the Imperial one, the only language will be High Gothic, and the only "religion" the Imperial Truth.

    I can't wait.

  20. #180
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    Assuming decisions made out of their beliefs will always contradict yours based on what you know to be true. You never know their beliefs until they tell and you would never know whether a decision made was because they shared a similar subset of beliefs which you are sharing or because of the supplemental ones which you don't share. Also as I said if it's supplemental they may still share you materialist-scientific views in matters materialism and science but if they are going to belief something in addition to that and you have no pendant to that on your side then how can you tell it's automatically having a negative effect on you? And moreover why would that be worth combating it even when it has no tangible effect on you at all...unless you are paranoid about it.
    This isn't about my beliefs, this is about what's demonstrably true. But you're right, I don't know how religion affects a specific individual, that's why I encourage discussions so we can find out what they really believe in.

    Here's an example of "metaphysical" belief that is dangerous; "All disbelievers will go to hell", this is a belief which can cause individuals to behave badly to non-believers. Here's another example: "My god will forgive me for my sins", this is a belief which can cause individuals to do bad things, knowing that they can be "forgiven" and still get to "heaven"

    Do I really need to go on? I hope you understand why I'm concerned about these pseudo-science concepts & beliefs.


    First off pastor is usually only a title used in Protestant Christianity which is a major division within one religion. And naturally humans may disagree on individual basis. But I have seen meetings with more than 100 pastor and some of them with different denominations. The closer the discussion to the core tenets the less disagreements you will find and almost none of the wild one. You will only find disagreements within major denominations or divisions but even so dialogue is quite common these days. But assuming there would only be one religion then there would only have to be one denomination as well for the true homogeneity effect and then disagreements will become very little. It's a matter of how it is organized anyway. If it's centralized then disagreements will be none. If it's decentralized then disagreements may eventually be purged in one big synodal meeting.
    It's even worse among the adherents, ranging from hating homosexuals to loving homosexuals, the contrast only grows starker when you involve people who haven't really read their particular "holy book".
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

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