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  1. #81
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Benefits might be small, but they are still there. They put the LFR ilvl bellow the previous tiers heroic because heroic raiders shouldn't need to feel the need to enter LFR to find any form of upgrade, so why should normal raiders need to go through that? Normal mode is a higher difficulty than LFR with better rewards. Hence it doesn't make any sense at all to ever feel any craving what so ever to enter a lower level difficulty to find a potential upgrade, thus LFR gear should always have a lower item level than the previous normal mode.
    I really don't like the idea of almost all of the gear in a new LFR not being upgrades to the valor gear I already have.

    Doing that..
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%93tis/simple

    7 out of the 15 pieces of gear I have, would get no upgrades out of a new LFR. LFR only peeps out there with even better gear likely'd even have it more worse off. The idea just doesn't work unless they revamp the previous tier's valor item levels, or something. For the LFR only players, there should be a great avenue of upgrades for them in the next tier of content :x Maybe the compromise should just be that if people don't want to do it, they just don't do it :x and if they feel compelled to do it anyways for loot, then realize that's all on them for feeling like they have to do content they don't want to do for shinies in a videogame.

  2. #82
    Haha heroic raiders who complain about gear? We had once a few healers who dared to ask why they didn't get as much gear as the rest. Our officers had to explain them where the fuck they are and why they can be where they are :x
    Seriously I doubt that there are many longtime heroic guilds still influenced by that noob-mindset. If you are raiding heroics and care about ilvl because it's a nice number you are doing it wrong.

  3. #83
    As I mentioned previously though, the issue you have is tuning of bosses. Do you tune bosses towards having your super high item level or do you tune them to a lesser item level? If you're tuning them to a lesser item level than the item level they drop then the bosses are effectively going to be snore fests in that gear. What would people rather want: well tuned encounters or LFR heroes having gear they get no benefit from? Perhaps this is being mean but you shouldn't antagonise the flex, normal mode and heroic mode raiders just because some LFR rogue wants to hit 20k harder with his 2 Envenom's he uses once a fight to so that he feels his lack of contribution to the group can be somewhat reasoned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    Haha heroic raiders who complain about gear? We had once a few healers who dared to ask why they didn't get as much gear as the rest. Our officers had to explain them where the fuck they are and why they can be where they are :x
    Seriously I doubt that there are many longtime heroic guilds still influenced by that noob-mindset. If you are raiding heroics and care about ilvl because it's a nice number you are doing it wrong.
    This is true too. Heroic raiders do not care for item level, they care for challenges. It's a lot easier to create difficult and well tuned encounters if the item level increases are less steep and the gear they currently possess can be used as a benchmark of their raid's overall performance (DPS/HPS wise). By creating a less steep item level gap too, it means the whole notion of "RUN ALL THE ALT RAIDS" is diminished too. Will people still run the alt raids? Fuck yes, people want those sick awesome set bonuses. However the guilds who are "at the top" who don't run alt raids (there are quite a few) are not royally screwed because they can't be arsed with some trivial nonsense. If anyone is confused though I am indeed saying running 3-5 alt raids shouldn't "GUARANTEE" a world first: skill should. Running alt raids should give some benefit (and they would, the tier bonuses) but it shouldn't be the deciding factor.
    Last edited by Floopa; 2013-06-13 at 10:32 AM.

  4. #84
    The Patient Furtylol's Avatar
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    I like the higher heroic/normal ilvl distributions. I think there's a much larger margin for them to balance around when there is a noticeable difference between those difficulties. Insofar as LFR goes I like the idea of it being lower than Throne normal.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabrex View Post
    I like the higher heroic/normal ilvl distributions. I think there's a much larger margin for them to balance around when there is a noticeable difference between those difficulties. Insofar as LFR goes I like the idea of it being lower than Throne normal.
    How is it easier to balance? If you really think that then you have no idea.

  6. #86
    Mechagnome
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    Shouldn't this thread belong in Dungeons and Raids forum?

    On topic:
    I think "starting" LFR item level of 528 is much better than 521.
    On the other hand, the difference between LFR and Normal ilvl from second distribution is even bigger than now. And I think Flex gear should be closer to "middle" between normal and LFR. Still below that middle, but not that close to LFR.
    IMO it should be 528 LFR - 536 Flex - 548 Normal - 561 Heroic. Or, 530 LFR - 540 Flex - 553 Normal - 566 Heroic.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    How is it easier to balance? If you really think that then you have no idea.
    I think because it'll be easier to just add a gear check to bosses thus making it easier to balance. If there's only a few ilvl difference between ToT and SoO normal/heroic gear, how are they going to make every boss progressively harder? The only way I can think of is if they can cater the bosses directly to the new tier bonuses but that'll be insanely tricky to balance. Walking into SoO with enough gear to kill every boss does not seem logical to me at all.

    LFR aside, I don't even know why people are choosing the first option. It has to be GC's tweet option or even a 3rd option with even higher ilvls.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by kappa View Post
    I think because it'll be easier to just add a gear check to bosses thus making it easier to balance. If there's only a few ilvl difference between ToT and SoO normal/heroic gear, how are they going to make every boss progressively harder? The only way I can think of is if they can cater the bosses directly to the new tier bonuses but that'll be insanely tricky to balance. Walking into SoO with enough gear to kill every boss does not seem logical to me at all.

    LFR aside, I don't even know why people are choosing the first option. It has to be GC's tweet option or even a 3rd option with even higher ilvls.
    People prefer the first option because the encounters can be better tuned. If Lei Shen HC was tuned at 535 item level (it isn't, trust me) it would have been so insanely hard that no guild would've been able to kill it (IMO) before the majority of their raiding team had the LGM. With even higher item levels it becomes ridiculous. 30~ item levels on every piece of gear is a huge upgrade. The 600 cloak, compared to a 541 cloak, is such a big upgrade it's like getting TWO 570~ items. A smaller item level gap means fights can be tuned a lot tighter and thus are better because of it.

  9. #89
    Mechagnome Zenny's Avatar
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    If the new Tier LFR is worse then ToT normal then it's not gonna contain a whole lot of upgrades for LFR runners. That's gonna upset quite a number of people.

    Personally I believe it should look as follows:

    528 LFR
    538 Flex
    550 Normal
    563 HC

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    People prefer the first option because the encounters can be better tuned. If Lei Shen HC was tuned at 535 item level (it isn't, trust me) it would have been so insanely hard that no guild would've been able to kill it (IMO) before the majority of their raiding team had the LGM. With even higher item levels it becomes ridiculous. 30~ item levels on every piece of gear is a huge upgrade. The 600 cloak, compared to a 541 cloak, is such a big upgrade it's like getting TWO 570~ items. A smaller item level gap means fights can be tuned a lot tighter and thus are better because of it.
    But a greater jump in ilevels would make it easier to make fights progressively harder within the raid. Of course when you have the almost full bis gear, the first bosses in the instance will be a snorefest, they are supposed to be the easiest.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Sepharoth View Post
    But a greater jump in ilevels would make it easier to make fights progressively harder within the raid. Of course when you have the almost full bis gear, the first bosses in the instance will be a snorefest, they are supposed to be the easiest.
    Normal mode raiders would be -very- angry if their encounters were tuned at 549 item level, don't you think? The majority of normal mode raiders wont have 549 gear. Far from it. At best they'll be sporting -maybe- 535-540 gear. Are you really suggesting that normal mode gets tuned around such a mark that normal becomes as hard as HC ToT is right now to clear?

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Normal mode raiders would be -very- angry if their encounters were tuned at 549 item level, don't you think? The majority of normal mode raiders wont have 549 gear. Far from it. At best they'll be sporting -maybe- 535-540 gear. Are you really suggesting that normal mode gets tuned around such a mark that normal becomes as hard as HC ToT is right now to clear?
    No, I'm saying that I like the way ToT was built. The fights became progressively harder within the instance, but the higher ilevel from the previous, easier, bosses helped overcome, with time, the harder challenge the last bosses provide. But to have such difference in difficulty, you also need to have ways to help people conquer them, and higher ilevels help providing that.
    To illustrate with an example. Normal guild X, goes in SoO with a guild ilvl of 528. The loot from normal SoO is 549. Guild X, due to being lower geared than heroic guild, will struggle to go through the first say, 4 bosses. However those first 4 bosses, give them big upgrades for the next week to be able to go in and struggle less with those first 4 bosses in time for them to also see the 5th and maybe even kill, thus achieving progression. By the third week, the ilevel of the guild might have climbed towards the 535 marker which will allow them to kill even more bosses.
    On the other hand, heroic guild Y goes in SoO with 543 ilvl. They will steamroll through the first 10 bosses of SoO, and find some hardship on the last 4. They might still get some upgrades, albeit minor ones. On the second week, they will try for heroics, and they will be for heroics like guild X was for normals.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Sepharoth View Post
    No, I'm saying that I like the way ToT was built. The fights became progressively harder within the instance, but the higher ilevel from the previous, easier, bosses helped overcome, with time, the harder challenge the last bosses provide. But to have such difference in difficulty, you also need to have ways to help people conquer them, and higher ilevels help providing that.
    To illustrate with an example. Normal guild X, goes in SoO with a guild ilvl of 528. The loot from normal SoO is 549. Guild X, due to being lower geared than heroic guild, will struggle to go through the first say, 4 bosses. However those first 4 bosses, give them big upgrades for the next week to be able to go in and struggle less with those first 4 bosses in time for them to also see the 5th and maybe even kill, thus achieving progression. By the third week, the ilevel of the guild might have climbed towards the 535 marker which will allow them to kill even more bosses.
    On the other hand, heroic guild Y goes in SoO with 543 ilvl. They will steamroll through the first 10 bosses of SoO, and find some hardship on the last 4. They might still get some upgrades, albeit minor ones. On the second week, they will try for heroics, and they will be for heroics like guild X was for normals.
    Normal mode offering 543 gear is fine IMO but any higher and you start to run into the risk of what I hate most about progression raiding - alt raids. I like raiding progression, it's enjoyable, but I hate the fact I have to get up and start clearing a raid 4-5 times in a single week. It ruins everything. I don't care about my alts, the fact I have 2 characters in 538ish gear means nothing to me. All I care about is my main. I really do wish Blizzard would go with what they originally planned just to kill off any notion that alt raiding normal mode is the key to winning the PvE race.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Normal mode raiders would be -very- angry if their encounters were tuned at 549 item level, don't you think? The majority of normal mode raiders wont have 549 gear. Far from it. At best they'll be sporting -maybe- 535-540 gear. Are you really suggesting that normal mode gets tuned around such a mark that normal becomes as hard as HC ToT is right now to clear?
    Encounters aren't tuned by the ilvl of the gear they drop. ToT normals were tuned at around 496ish gear to start, not 522.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by kappa View Post
    Encounters aren't tuned by the ilvl of the gear they drop. ToT normals were tuned at around 496ish gear to start, not 522.
    Exactly. They should be though. It means the encounters can be tuned better. If that's at the result of less item level then that's fine too. People shouldn't raid for items, raiding for a high item level is what a douchebag does.

  16. #96
    The item levels are needed, in my opinion. Consider this a transition patch. Yes, item levels will be a bit low for some difficulties, but they want LFR raiders to be able to switch over to flex. Therefore, I think this patch's flex raiding will be a bit easier than the future flex raids.

    That is, if Blizzard are able to think that far.

  17. #97
    Stood in the Fire Drudatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    I disagree, it would be too much added pressure on N/H raiders to do flex every week. So long as the lockouts are separate Normal gear should be clearly superior.
    ANd this is bullocks and you know it!
    a) noone is FORCING anyone to do ANYTHING
    b) a clever player who wants to max his char will ofc run lfr/flex AND HC (after hes done with normal)
    So yes LFR 5.4 will be at least 528 cause otherwise it wouldnt make ANY sense at all to go there.... and trust me blizzard doesnt want to let lfr at this point....

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I really don't like the idea of almost all of the gear in a new LFR not being upgrades to the valor gear I already have.

    Doing that..
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%93tis/simple

    7 out of the 15 pieces of gear I have, would get no upgrades out of a new LFR. LFR only peeps out there with even better gear likely'd even have it more worse off. The idea just doesn't work unless they revamp the previous tier's valor item levels, or something. For the LFR only players, there should be a great avenue of upgrades for them in the next tier of content :x Maybe the compromise should just be that if people don't want to do it, they just don't do it :x and if they feel compelled to do it anyways for loot, then realize that's all on them for feeling like they have to do content they don't want to do for shinies in a videogame.
    Or, the compromise could be that LFR players stay happy with being able to run all the current content with the exact same gear but with lower item level. The new LFR will still be a significant upgrade from the previous LFR gear.

    You don't want to run Normal/Heroic mode raids for better gear, just as I don't want to run LFR. So wouldn't the best compromise be to let people run whichever content they prefer, without feeling the need to run easier versions of the same content to find upgrades?

  19. #99
    You just can't compare lfr and normal ilevels at all, they have, or should have, completely separate tier progression. If blizzard finds a compromise for the inflation of LFR ilevels, say, LFR increases 19 ilevels per tier, they should keep it regardless of the normal/heroic tier progression. Normal and heroic tiers are tied together because they share a lockout, so the normal ilevel depends not on the previous normal tier but rather on the previous heroic tier, and the heroic ilevel depends on the normal ilevel. Blizzard found a number they like for the difference between heroic and normal gear, and the player base has gotten used to it, so it shouldn't change. But the normal ilevel shouldn't depend on what the LFR ilevel will be, and the other way around shouldn't happen as well.

  20. #100
    Brewmaster rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    As it is now, you get 502 from LFR (upgradable), and 522 from vendors / Oon / Nalak. 521 dropping from the new LFR, and vendors (and perhaps other world bosses?) would yield 541. How is this not progress exactly? Tier set bonuses are going to make you opt for LFR pieces instead of sticking with current 522's from vendors.[COLOR="red"]
    LFR itself would be barely any progress, that is the problem.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 04:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Oh really? Upgrading the gear from 522 to 528 doesn't at all help out when starting up progress on SoO normal mode? Not many item levels, sure, but better gear is better gear and gives more room for error. Just keep it bellow 522, there's really no reason for it to be above it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 09:14 AM ----------



    Or keep the LFR item level bellow the previous normal mode. Much simpler.
    522 upgraded gear is at 530, why would a normal raider that hasn't fallen behind need to run LFR?

    And even then, you will only need 522 gear to clear SoO. And if you want to min/max that badly, why would you allow yourself to fall behind in the first place?
    Ontop of that, shared lock-outs would also fix this issue, yet you think making the game less fun for those who don't run normals is the better choice?
    Last edited by rederoin; 2013-06-13 at 02:19 PM.

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