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  1. #101
    New LFR with 521 ilvl would be great and solve it's main problem which is that regular raiders are 'forced' to do it for optimal gear
    LFR for gearing up alts and people who haven't done ToT normal seems like the right demography

    Flex seems quite low though it should be higher than upgraded normal ToT and lower than hero ToT imo
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-06-13 at 02:31 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by rederoin View Post
    LFR itself would be barely any progress, that is the problem.[COLOR="red"]
    The best weapons and tier sets you can get now from lfr are 502. 20 points higher is pretty significant. There will be new trinkets, probably with some obnoxious procs on them.

    Personally, it could stay at 502 for all I care. I'll run the new LFR stuff a bunch of times, consider it seen, and then go back to alt leveling mode. It's almost summer anyhow.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    New LFR with 521 ilvl would be great and solve it's main problem which is that regular raiders are 'forced' to do it for optimal gear
    LFR for gearing up alts and people who haven't done ToT normal seems like the right demography

    Flex seems quite low though it should be higher than upgraded normal ToT and lower than hero ToT imo
    This is something I can agree with.

    LFR = 521
    Flex = 532
    Flex (TF) = 540
    Normal = 543
    Normal (TF) = 551
    Heroic = 554
    Heroic (TF) = 562

    What's wrong with this exactly?

  4. #104
    At this point the latter of course is far more appropriate given the leap between the still current and previous tier. Also get rid of thunderforgeshit while at it.

  5. #105
    Titan Synthaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    First model with no "thunderforged" gimmick.
    I agree. Even though I only do LFR, TF never made sense to me. I want raiders of normal and HC to be rewarded properly, but TF is just confusing. I'm not against extra ilevels for normal and HC raiders at all, but 2 extra 'tiers' you get by adding TF just confuses everything. If anything, rolling these levels into the gear as standard would be a better option. With flex raid being implemented, we're soon going to be looking at 6 different tiers, 7 if there's a flex-thunderforged level (for all we know they'll make such a level between PTR launch and live release).

    On the subject of flex and ilevels, I think +6 is most appropriate. Actually, +6 for each different level would be better, though perhaps make TF equal to the non-TF of the next tier. Example (theoretical numbers);

    LFR: 500
    Flex: 506
    Flex-TF: 512
    Normal: 512
    Normal-TF: 518
    Heroic: 518
    Heroic-TF: 524

    I guess we could expand it to +8 as well;
    LFR: 500
    Flex: 508
    Flex-TF: 516
    Normal: 516
    Normal-TF: 524
    Heroic: 524
    Heroic-TF: 532

    If it was just +8 for each level without TF matching;
    LFR: 500
    Flex: 508
    Flex-TF: 516
    Normal: 524
    Normal-TF: 532
    Heroic: 540
    Heroic-TF: 548

    Get rid of TF levels, and give a higher budget for each level;
    LFR: 500
    Flex: 508
    Normal: 516
    Heroic: 524

    Or make it +10 for each level;
    LFR: 500
    Flex: 510
    Normal: 520
    Heroic: 530

    Perhaps extend the item upgrade to 4 tiers, except for LFR which would be the 2/2 we currently use. Change the cost to 150/150/100/100 and you've got the ability to get up to 546 ilvl based on the numbers above (of course we're starting at >510, but I figure rounding it down to 500 makes it easier to calculate and demonstrate the numbers). LFR get cheaper upgrades overall, but they'd only be at 508, while Heroic 4/4 would be at 546.
    Last edited by Synthaxx; 2013-06-13 at 03:24 PM.
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  6. #106
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Or, the compromise could be that LFR players stay happy with being able to run all the current content with the exact same gear but with lower item level. The new LFR will still be a significant upgrade from the previous LFR gear.

    You don't want to run Normal/Heroic mode raids for better gear, just as I don't want to run LFR. So wouldn't the best compromise be to let people run whichever content they prefer, without feeling the need to run easier versions of the same content to find upgrades?
    I just don't like the idea of half of my gear having no real upgrades from a new raid dungeon. That just seems kind of... broken. Barring something like the legendary cloak, all gear I've had for ages should be replaced readily in a new place :x This basically works out as to punishing LFR players, and giving benefits to everyone else.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 03:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    This is something I can agree with.

    LFR = 521
    Flex = 532
    Flex (TF) = 540
    Normal = 543
    Normal (TF) = 551
    Heroic = 554
    Heroic (TF) = 562

    What's wrong with this exactly?
    LFR players with valor gear from this current tier will need nothing from the new LFR to replace their valor items.

    Plus, I imagine Blizzard wants content to remain relevant to casual players longer, not shorter :x
    Last edited by Otiswhitaker; 2013-06-13 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #107
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    This is something I can agree with.

    LFR = 521
    Flex = 532
    Flex (TF) = 540
    Normal = 543
    Normal (TF) = 551
    Heroic = 554
    Heroic (TF) = 562

    What's wrong with this exactly?
    1. LFR gear has always (both DS and ToT) been above Normal gear from previous tier, not below
    2. I seriously doubt that Flex gear can be thunderforged
    3. The tier difference between Normal and Heroic is 13 ilvl, not 11.
    4. The difference of 21 ilvl between Normal gear and ToT normal gear is slightly too low
    Old Gods made me do it.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    1. LFR gear has always (both DS and ToT) been above Normal gear from previous tier, not below
    2. I seriously doubt that Flex gear can be thunderforged
    3. The tier difference between Normal and Heroic is 13 ilvl, not 11.
    4. The difference of 21 ilvl between Normal gear and ToT normal gear is slightly too low
    1) Things can change. Normal mode raiders hate it that LFR gives them upgrades. Besides, this is the final tier. Most likely 521 LFR gear would beat 522 normal ToT gear due to better socket bonuses, extra socket bonuses, better trinket procs (RPPM is fucking terrible).

    2) Perhaps, but I see no reason why it can't be TF.

    3) Fine, 556 for heroic loot then.

    4) No it isn't. 21 item levels is normally 20 of a primary stat, not to mention as it's the final tier you'll be getting 3 secondary stats instead of 2 (look at legendary cloaks vs HC TF cloaks as reference).

    The only reason why my "proposed" item levels are being objected against is because LFR heroes only care about loot. Heroic raiders do not, and to a lesser extent I imagine normal mode raiders don't care about their item level. The only ones crying over a "lower" or "less steep" item level gap are the LFR heroes. I really wish Blizzard would go with what they originally planned as it would work out better for the game overall. The game needs LESS gear scaling. Do you know the situation at the moment? Most agility users have around 50-60% crit raid buffed at the moment. My MW, fully crit gemmed, has 40% crit raid buffed. Most Mages (fully crit gemmed) have around 50% crit raid buffed. This just leads to absurd numbers as an end result.

  9. #109
    Herald of the Titans Kurgath's Avatar
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    What GC tweeted ofc. More stats so I can solo old content faster.

  10. #110
    Pandaren Monk rederoin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The best weapons and tier sets you can get now from lfr are 502. 20 points higher is pretty significant. There will be new trinkets, probably with some obnoxious procs on them.

    Personally, it could stay at 502 for all I care. I'll run the new LFR stuff a bunch of times, consider it seen, and then go back to alt leveling mode. It's almost summer anyhow.
    Which is still less or around 50% of your gear. It should be 95% or 100%.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yes, but anyone who has run LFR fairly regularly already has 515-ish, and will be maxed out at ~530 in 2 months without going near normal mode.
    This is a gross exaggeration. There are 8x 522 valor pieces available for each class, 2 Crafted 522 items, 522 shoulders at exalted, and the rest (assuming they went nowhere near normals as you say) would be 5 slots of (at max) 510 gear. Mind you this would require this "fairly regular" LFR player to have farmed 13,000 valor to purchase each item (slightly less if 2pc from nalak) and upgrade all 16 items 2/2. as well as anywhere from 100,000g-200,000g to purchase the crafted items (depending on class/spec) and shoulders. This also assumes that the player is purposely avoiding their T15 4pc.

    Even in this miraculous scenario, the MAXIMUM pre normal ilvl (BiS pre normals if you will) is 523.75, and you still have 5 slots to fill with huge upgrades from SoO LFR (weapons, 2nd trinket, T16, etc.)

    Missing both crafted pieces, or picking up 4pc drops this to 521.25, and 7 slots to fill from SoO LFR.

    Missing both crafted pieces & picking up 4pc drops the avg ilvl further to 518.75 with 9 slots to fill (Most likely scenario)

    Assuming they pick up 4pc LFR T16, that creates 11 upgrades for the average-slightly above average target LFR player. Assuming that there are new valor/rep rewards in 5.4, you're looking at pretty much a full set of upgrades from 5.4 even with the lower ilvl from LFR. I don't see an issue.

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