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  1. #1

    To those AGAINST WoW exclusivity (in-depth)

    Hi, I've been an avid mmo-champion lurker since its beginning years following various games, but mainly my interest has been in World of Warcraft.

    In just about every major and the majority of minor Blizzard-WoW changes, threads appear on mmo-champ complaining about Blizzard's focus of catering to casuals. Though many of these threads are obviously bitter Blizzard fans confused at their sudden loss of interest in the game (MMO-burnout, usually), some of them seem to point at an obvious flaw in Blizzard's agenda.

    I'm going to go into detail about my experience related to the subject, and analyze the issue as objectively as I can

    My Experience
    Personally, when I try to look at the pros of the older days of WoW with as little subjectivity as possible, a major point comes to mind, which I find that most vanilla-wow players can agree on:
    Finding/Winning/Buying good gear (blues/epics) felt amazing. Some of the most exciting moments of my WoW journeys have come from winning a roll on an item that is top-tier stat-wise. This gear also looked fantastic, and there was nothing else that looked like it. Hell, even the shitty looking gear looked great sometimes because when a player sees it, they know the wearer is straight bad-ass.
    I remember wandering around Ironforge or Orgimmar while looking for a PUG for the challenging-as-shit Deadmines or Wailing Caverns, inspecting levels 50-60's like a caveman discovering fire. The blues and epics I saw gave me motivation to put more effort into the game because with that effort I would see much greater reward, so that when people simply glanced at me, they would see that my end-game trials have been completed. I quickly became entranced in this fantasy game that had a challenge awaiting at every corner, beginning with Hogger. This is the same challenge that can be seen in some of the greatest games ever created. Another aspect of these games, however, is that the challenge was absolute, and if the player could not overcome these challenges, he/she had to do something hardly seen anymore in WoW's current stages: Get better.

    The beginning stages of WoW was extremely unpolished in comparison to today's WoW, and furnishing was completely necessary, but systems like LFR, LFD, and even Pet-Battles have taken away from the game's original enchanting effect. An aspect of WoW that I feel is too often overlooked by developer's is its ability to place gamer's minds into a virtual, and mystical world which makes 10 hours of game-time feel like 10 minutes. I feel that most systems that are implemented for any reason other than to focus on story-related content ultimately takes away from the overall experience EVERY player gets from the game, and is slowly taking players (subscribers) away.

    In my opinion, the "special snowflake" people refer to when they bash players that are naturally upset at Blizzard's push for equality is not an insult at all, and because we are human beings with drive and ambition, a significant majority of us enjoy being the special snowflake.
    Also, those who are against exclusivity in WoW are not necessarily wrong, just as there are many snobby assholes advocating exclusivity that want it for the wrong reasons. However, if someone were to look accurately at the general issue's impact on the game, I'm sure they would agree that a difficulty revamp is in everyone's best interest.

    Aside from that, here are some ideas that I feel would significant benefit the experience of playing WoW.

    1): Taking away LFR, but adding a PTR-styled server which allows players to create a level 90 character (if they already have a 90, mind you) in top-tier gear with LFR enabled, which would allow players to experience all of the game's content without assistance that would ultimately worsen the game's experience for regular realms.

    2): Making levels 1-89 less of a joke. I convinced my girlfriend to try the game out, and was extremely excited for us to experience the "golden-days" of gaming that I remembered. Unfortunately, I was extremely disappointed after hitting 90 in ~four weeks of pretty-inactive playing, and realizing that we only witnessed 1/1000th of the game. I don't want to go into specifics on how they could fix this, but being able to basically pull an entire instance in 0 BoA or 'twink' gear and clear RFC in about 15 minutes makes the game feel like a dull and repetitive *job* until I get to 90 only to find that I was fired from my leveling job and hired for hundreds of other different jobs.

    3): Creating gear unique in appearance. This goes hand-in-hand with exclusivity, but I feel like a battle droid from Star Wars in PvP, PvE, Farming, Roaming a city, and doing virtually anything. Transmogrification sort-of helped with this, but the problem is definitely still there and seeing level 90's in best-in-slot gear that look like a level 40 bandit takes away from the game.

    4): Simplifying raid mechanics. This idea isn't suggesting that Blizzard lowers the general raid difficulty, which is not directly related to boss-mechanic-complexity, but only that Blizzard makes encounters WITHOUT an attached ten-page essay detailing the boss's abilities, sub-abilities, subsub-abilities, subsubsub-abilities, and ability if-then's. This forces raiders to devote an extensive amount of research to simply remember what not to stand in. This, in my opinion, has been the most fundamental factor in hindering the general player-base's ability to actually control their character at an above-average level. By control, I mean to move efficiently in any scenario within their virtual space. Being a raid leader of one of the top hardcore guilds on my server about three months ago (have taken a break from the game since then), I have noticed that newer players (Starting in ToC-WOTLK / Cataclysm or even MoP) generally seem to move and perform more clumsily than the others mainly in PvE settings and to a much lesser degree, PvP settings. Because most newer PvP players (again, from my experience) don't have this clumsy-control trait, it's obvious that PvP for the most part, requires absolute perfection in terms of movement while PvE requires mechanic-memorization instead. This is significant because it shows the lack of connection between the player-base and the game (in regards to story-related incidents).

    5): Though this idea isn't nearly as obviously-beneficial, I personally feel that it would help the game significantly; to disable addons. Already the game has adopted a questhelper-styled addon, gearscore addon, as well as many other commonly used addons back in the day, so they could do the same for addons that are obviously too practical to get rid of. Obviously this would anger a large portion of the community at first, and people would exclaim "Muh addons!" while signaling an end to WoW, but over time it would definitely make the game less stressful, and more captivating.

    World of Warcraft is implementing new systems faster than ever to keep players hooked, but as subscribers continue to drop at a steady/fast speed, it is clear to some that strategies such as being able to play Pokemon in-game while queued for a raid to defeat a foe mightier than Zeus himself for the 200th time and chatting with a fellow guildie, urging him/her to create an alt, level it to 90 and gear it up within a week because you guys need another tank for nerfed hardcore progression, are simply inadequate.

  2. #2
    Alright, in order...

    1): Taking away LFR, but adding a PTR-styled server which allows players to create a level 90 character (if they already have a 90, mind you) in top-tier gear with LFR enabled, which would allow players to experience all of the game's content without assistance that would ultimately worsen the game's experience for regular realms.
    People don't just want to see the content, they want to have a sense of progression with their characters. For Heroic raiders their progression ends at the last Heroic boss of the Tier. For most players their progression ends at Valor purchases and LFR drops. Simply saying "here's the content, have at it!" without giving them any sort of tangible reward for it will only result in the "LFR Server" being left completely empty.

    2): Making levels 1-89 less of a joke. I convinced my girlfriend to try the game out, and was extremely excited for us to experience the "golden-days" of gaming that I remembered. Unfortunately, I was extremely disappointed after hitting 90 in ~four weeks of pretty-inactive playing, and realizing that we only witnessed 1/1000th of the game. I don't want to go into specifics on how they could fix this, but being able to basically pull an entire instance in 0 BoA or 'twink' gear and clear RFC in about 15 minutes makes the game feel like a dull and repetitive *job* until I get to 90 only to find that I was fired from my leveling job and hired for hundreds of other different jobs.
    I don't know about you, but when I joined (before the Cataclysm revamp) leveling casually was weeks of 'go here and kill this group of dudes', with an occasional run through a dungeon with a guildie 30 levels above me demolishing everything in our path. Leveling has never been very fun. After Cataclysm hit I created a new character to see how the new experience was and had a blast, but I can't do it again without getting bored just 20 levels in. It's just the nature of the beast when it comes to MMORPGs: you join the game to be awesome, but you have a long road of killing boars and collecting bear asses before you can get there. Chances are, your girlfriend wasn't too interested in the first place, given she needed to be convinced to try it out.

    3): Creating gear unique in appearance. This goes hand-in-hand with exclusivity, but I feel like a battle droid from Star Wars in PvP, PvE, Farming, Roaming a city, and doing virtually anything. Transmogrification sort-of helped with this, but the problem is definitely still there and seeing level 90's in best-in-slot gear that look like a level 40 bandit takes away from the game.
    ... wait, what? Tier and BiS gear tends to look really over-the-top and different, specially compared to the deliberately discrete and understated gear you get while leveling up (I remember leveling through Northrend... so much brown!).

    4): Simplifying raid mechanics. This idea isn't suggesting that Blizzard lowers the general raid difficulty, which is not directly related to boss-mechanic-complexity, but only that Blizzard makes encounters WITHOUT an attached ten-page essay detailing the boss's abilities, sub-abilities, subsub-abilities, subsubsub-abilities, and ability if-then's. This forces raiders to devote an extensive amount of research to simply remember what not to stand in. This, in my opinion, has been the most fundamental factor in hindering the general player-base's ability to actually control their character at an above-average level. By control, I mean to move efficiently in any scenario within their virtual space. Being a raid leader of one of the top hardcore guilds on my server about three months ago (have taken a break from the game since then), I have noticed that newer players (Starting in ToC-WOTLK / Cataclysm or even MoP) generally seem to move and perform more clumsily than the others mainly in PvE settings and to a much lesser degree, PvP settings. Because most newer PvP players (again, from my experience) don't have this clumsy-control trait, it's obvious that PvP for the most part, requires absolute perfection in terms of movement while PvE requires mechanic-memorization instead. This is significant because it shows the lack of connection between the player-base and the game (in regards to story-related incidents).
    That's what LFR is for. Those are the training wheels to give you a notion of what raiding is. Interested? Get yourself into a raid group that's willing to teach you.

    5): Though this idea isn't nearly as obviously-beneficial, I personally feel that it would help the game significantly; to disable addons. Already the game has adopted a questhelper-styled addon, gearscore addon, as well as many other commonly used addons back in the day, so they could do the same for addons that are obviously too practical to get rid of. Obviously this would anger a large portion of the community at first, and people would exclaim "Muh addons!" while signaling an end to WoW, but over time it would definitely make the game less stressful, and more captivating.
    ... actually, I agree with you on that one. Well, I'd miss my roleplaying add-on to hell and back, but I suppose it would be fairly easy for Blizz to implement that into the game itself. But boy oh boy would people RAGE if that happened.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  3. #3
    Pretty long read and I admit I haven't read the whole thing, but from what I've read I felt the need to create an account and post after a fair few years lurking. I think you've pretty much clarified exactly how I feel about the game and the epic feeling you get when you start playing (though I've always wondered if this was just because the game was new).

    As I read this it sort of felt like a game developer admitting their faults and announcing they would revert the changes in gameplay. Obviously, hoping to return to the game in it's old state is a pipe dream (for some), but it was good to read your opinions and views on this. I think I largely agree.

    Though people dont really appreciate this type of thread on the forums, so I imagine it will face some anger and resistance. I still appreciated the read, better than the usual QQ game sucks type posts.

  4. #4
    I am not sure how to reply with quotes for specific blocks of texts so I will just reply to your replies in 1-5 format

    1): "People don't just want to see the content, they want to have a sense of progression with their characters. For Heroic raiders their progression ends at the last Heroic boss of the Tier. For most players their progression ends at Valor purchases and LFR drops. Simply saying "here's the content, have at it!" without giving them any sort of tangible reward for it will only result in the "LFR Server" being left completely empty."

    This point is either going to be a hit or miss among different individuals and it wouldn't be possible to argue with logic but again, when you consider the ultimate impact that LFR currently makes on the game, in my opinion, the absence of it would make for a challenging, and epic game all around once again.

    2): "I don't know about you, but when I joined (before the Cataclysm revamp) leveling casually was weeks of 'go here and kill this group of dudes', with an occasional run through a dungeon with a guildie 30 levels above me demolishing everything in our path. Leveling has never been very fun. After Cataclysm hit I created a new character to see how the new experience was and had a blast, but I can't do it again without getting bored just 20 levels in. It's just the nature of the beast when it comes to MMORPGs: you join the game to be awesome, but you have a long road of killing boars and collecting bear asses before you can get there. Chances are, your girlfriend wasn't too interested in the first place, given she needed to be convinced to try it out."

    Well to go a bit backwards in response to this, my girlfriend enjoyed the game but the degree to which she enjoyed it was dwarfed by my enjoyment six years ago, as well as ALL of the oldschool players I've talked to.
    Also, I'm not entirely sure if you're implying that you begun the game in WOTLK which doesn't make your points any more invalid than mine, but it would be impossible for you to understand the challenge and *journey* of leveling when the game had just begun.

    3): "... wait, what? Tier and BiS gear tends to look really over-the-top and different, specially compared to the deliberately discrete and understated gear you get while leveling up (I remember leveling through Northrend... so much brown!)."

    My point isn't to make level 1-89 gear look different than level 90 year, it is to make top-tiered level 90 gear look completely unique. At the moment, there is little difference between LFR gear and BiS gear.

    4): "That's what LFR is for. Those are the training wheels to give you a notion of what raiding is. Interested? Get yourself into a raid group that's willing to teach you."

    I completely disagree with this point. LFR requires the cognitive function of a four year old to complete the raid, and cannot be compared to training wheels in any sense. I can't even count the number of times I've AFK right-clicked as a TANK and completed every LFR Blizzard has thrown at me.

  5. #5
    The problem is that you are trying to solve an issue of human psychology, "Why doesn't this thing that was new 10 years ago not feel new anymore?" with the tools of game development, "Let's get rid of LFR".

  6. #6
    Thanks, I really appreciate that and hope the majority of people who view this thread analyze it with an open mind.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 10:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by exriel View Post
    The problem is that you are trying to solve an issue of human psychology, "Why doesn't this thing that was new 10 years ago feel new anymore?" with tools of game development, "Let's get rid of LFR".
    Not quite. Though I admit that the game being new was huge, if not the biggest factor in how fantastic the game was for me, the feelings I described were all attributed to the epic exclusivity contained in the game.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    I wish more people would write posts like this, explaining thoroughly their reasons for disliking certain systems and mechanics, rather than the utter rubbish we often see people spewing on these forums.

    Whether I agree or not I'm not sure yet, I'm going to take a while to digest what you've written and then possibly come back with something here. Just wanted to congratulate you on writing an obviously well thought out post, even if it is mostly your opinion.

  8. #8
    Not quite. Though I admit that the game being new was huge, if not the biggest factor in how fantastic the game was for me, the feelings I described were all attributed to the epic exclusivity contained in the game.
    Yes, but what you call 'epic exclusivity' is just another name for, "whoa, I've never seen that before and it looks so cool and epic. I want that!". Which is another way to say it's fresh and new. This is the same power creep problem that eventually dooms all SciFi/Fantasy (especially Anime). Once you have beaten the most epic hardcore boss evar, how do you make the next boss *feel* even more epic-er.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    I wish more people would write posts like this, explaining thoroughly their reasons for disliking certain systems and mechanics, rather than the utter rubbish we often see people spewing on these forums.

    Whether I agree or not I'm not sure yet, I'm going to take a while to digest what you've written and then possibly come back with something here. Just wanted to congratulate you on writing an obviously well thought out post, even if it is mostly your opinion.

    Thank you, I appreciate that and agree that more people should attempt to thoroughly express themselves to promote proper discussion, I believe both sides of this issue have more in common than most would like to believe.

  10. #10
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Good grief. If you can dive that deep into this issue - take the next step. Become a game designer. See how your ideas float when you put your name, reputation and job on the line.

    Everyone can be clever if there is nothing to lose or when it is just make believe...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chancho221 View Post
    I am not sure how to reply with quotes for specific blocks of texts so I will just reply to your replies in 1-5 format
    Just put things between [ quote ] and [/ quote ] tags, removing the spaces. Either that or select the text you want to quote and press the little speech bubble button on the right corner of the formatting bar.

    1) This point is either going to be a hit or miss among different individuals and it wouldn't be possible to argue with logic but again, when you consider the ultimate impact that LFR currently makes on the game, in my opinion, the absence of it would make for a challenging, and epic game all around once again.
    A challenging, epic game for who, exactly? I have a distinct feeling most people who are enjoying LFR right now wouldn't be raiding at all were it not around. Raiding in World of Warcraft requires a time commitment not everybody can make. No LFR would make for a game in which a lot of people just look at high-level gear and sigh wistfully, or just leave the game/level a new alt when they've got their character to the level cap and through enough heroics to have the best non-Raid gear they can, because you can't rely on PuGs to gear up. I know, because I've been through that in Wrath of the Lich King (when I couldn't commit to raiding due to my timezone), and I've seen a lot of people doing the same.


    2)Well to go a bit backwards in response to this, my girlfriend enjoyed the game but the degree to which she enjoyed it was dwarfed by my enjoyment six years ago, as well as ALL of the oldschool players I've talked to.
    Also, I'm not entirely sure if you're implying that you begun the game in WOTLK which doesn't make your points any more invalid than mine, but it would be impossible for you to understand the challenge and *journey* of leveling when the game had just begun.
    Key concept here: six years ago. Nostalgia is a powerful thing. The game was different, and you were also a different player back then. If you were tossed into Vanilla WoW right now, without having ever played the game, there's a very good chance you'd be bored of it as quickly as your girlfriend did.

    3) My point isn't to make level 1-89 gear look different than level 90 year, it is to make top-tiered level 90 gear look completely unique. At the moment, there is little difference between LFR gear and BiS gear.
    Uh, sure. The problem is: they barely have enough time to build a single set of gear and two recolor for each class before people are clamoring for MORE RAIDS.
    One possible solution would be to add special effects for Heroic gear (things glow, move, leave particles and stuff) and/or to use more muted colors for LFR gear. But I know some people who abhorr that sort of stuff in any sort of armor, so you can't really please everybody either way.

    4) I completely disagree with this point. LFR requires the cognitive function of a four year old to complete the raid, and cannot be compared to training wheels in any sense. I can't even count the number of times I've AFK right-clicked as a TANK and completed every LFR Blizzard has thrown at me.
    You already know how the game works. For the guy who just reached level 90 on his first character, or who has never set a foot in a raid instance, it's not going to be that simple. It's going to be hectic, it's going to be chaotic, it's going to be epic ('did you SEE the size of that dude?!'), he's going to wonder why did he get killed and he's going to look at the gear that he's getting and his eyes are probably going to pop out of their sockets. Is the difficulty going to vanish as he plays the game? Sure. But by then he'll have a good idea if he wants to have a real challenge or if that's enough for him.

    LFR isn't making Normal or Heroic-mode raiders stop raiding. It's letting people who previously wouldn't raid at all have a taste of actual raiding and get another level of progression beyond "get to the level cap and spam heroics/scenarios until fully-decked in gear 100 ilvl lower than Heroic Raid gear".
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by exriel View Post
    Yes, but what you call 'epic exclusivity' is just another name for, "whoa, I've never seen that before and it looks so cool and epic. I want that!". Which is another way to say it's fresh and new. This is the same power creep problem that eventually dooms all SciFi/Fantasy (especially Anime). Once you have beaten the most epic hardcore boss evar, how do you make the next boss *feel* even more epic-er.
    No, what I call 'epic exclusivity' is simply exclusivity that I believe made the game challenging and epic. Things don't necessarily have to be new to be epic and exclusive (visually and stat-wise), they just have to be hard to get.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Chancho221 View Post
    No, what I call 'epic exclusivity' is simply exclusivity that I believe made the game challenging and epic. Things don't necessarily have to be new to be epic and exclusive (visually and stat-wise), they just have to be hard to get.
    So then I assume you are decked out in full Thunderforged gear from the LFR, right? Exclusive, hard to acquire items and content still exist, even in the presence of LFR.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    wait, what? Tier and BiS gear tends to look really over-the-top and different, specially compared to the deliberately discrete and understated gear you get while leveling up (I remember leveling through Northrend... so much brown!)


    The only difference between gear these days (in raids) is color and maybe one little effect, and sometimes the color schemes from heroics look even worse than the normal version. (from what I've seen so far since WotLK).

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    The only difference between gear these days (in raids) is color and maybe one little effect, and sometimes the color schemes from heroics look even worse than the normal version. (from what I've seen so far since WotLK).
    It seems I had misunderstood him. I was talking about the difference between Raid gear and leveling gear. If you see my second reply I mentioned I'd like to see muted colors on LFR gear and more interesting effects/colors on the higher-level stuff.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  16. #16
    I think one of the major factors that gets glossed over a lot when people discuss this topic is what they actually mean by 'difficult'. Because back in Vanilla, it had very little to do with the encounters themselves. 90% of the difficulty was in organization, not player skill.
    Last edited by exriel; 2013-06-12 at 10:41 PM.

  17. #17
    A challenging, epic game for who, exactly? I have a distinct feeling most people who are enjoying LFR right now wouldn't be raiding at all were it not around. Raiding in World of Warcraft requires a time commitment not everybody can make. No LFR would make for a game in which a lot of people just look at high-level gear and sigh wistfully, or just leave the game/level a new alt when they've got their character to the level cap and through enough heroics to have the best non-Raid gear they can, because you can't rely on PuGs to gear up. I know, because I've been through that in Wrath of the Lich King (when I couldn't commit to raiding due to my timezone), and I've seen a lot of people doing the same.
    This is why this will be a hit or miss. The decision to make the game more exclusive would greater reward the players who did manage to complete the content. The suggestion to add a LFR realm would allow the players who could not complete the content to experience the content and practice it (as you referred to LFR as training wheels). This isn't as complex as you are making it, it's simply an argument of Socialism vs Capitalism in a videogame setting. My argument is simply that because we are humans who have motivations and aspirations and enjoy being a "special snowflake", a capitalist videogame is more 'epic' in every sense of the word, just as the greatest videogames in existence have been.



    Key concept here: six years ago. Nostalgia is a powerful thing. The game was different, and you were also a different player back then. If you were tossed into Vanilla WoW right now, without having ever played the game, there's a very good chance you'd be bored of it as quickly as your girlfriend did.
    I agree, nostalgia is a powerful thing and I often argue that point when discussing issues related to this, but the points in my posts were directly related to exclusivity rather than the attributes related to a new and fresh game.

    Uh, sure. The problem is: they barely have enough time to build a single set of gear and two recolor for each class before people are clamoring for MORE RAIDS.
    One possible solution would be to add special effects for Heroic gear (things glow, move, leave particles and stuff) and/or to use more muted colors for LFR gear. But I know some people who abhorr that sort of stuff in any sort of armor, so you can't really please everybody either way.
    Possibly, but this certainly didn't apply to their ability to make unique sets of gear in vanilla wow, so I'm a bit skeptical that they lack the resources to do it now. Hell, I'm not asking for the most stylish and amazing pieces of artwork, I'm just asking for something unique when a top-tier piece is earned.

    You already know how the game works. For the guy who just reached level 90 on his first character, or who has never set a foot in a raid instance, it's not going to be that simple. It's going to be hectic, it's going to be chaotic, it's going to be epic ('did you SEE the size of that dude?!'), he's going to wonder why did he get killed and he's going to look at the gear that he's getting and his eyes are probably going to pop out of their sockets. Is the difficulty going to vanish as he plays the game? Sure. But by then he'll have a good idea if he wants to have a real challenge or if that's enough for him.

    LFR isn't making Normal or Heroic-mode raiders stop raiding. It's letting people who previously wouldn't raid at all have a taste of actual raiding and get another level of progression beyond "get to the level cap and spam heroics/scenarios until fully-decked in gear 100 ilvl lower than Heroic Raid gear".
    Though I still disagree with the general point you're making here, the LFR-realm I suggested would completely solve any issues you believe exist for non-raiders and casual raiders alike.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chancho221 View Post
    Thank you, I appreciate that and agree that more people should attempt to thoroughly express themselves to promote proper discussion, I believe both sides of this issue have more in common than most would like to believe.
    I think u have hit on an interesting angle, and your observations are very well assessed. But, i think that Wow has moved too far into the direction of 'equality' now and therefore theres not much chance of pulling it back.

    Most top raiders left the game a long time ago and i doubt theyll come back, mainly because theyre probably getting their 'challenging gaming fix' somewhere else in another game.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by exriel View Post
    So then I assume you are decked out in full Thunderforged gear from the LFR, right? Exclusive, hard to acquire items and content still exist, even in the presence of LFR.
    Not nearly to the same engaging degree that I described in my OP regarding vanilla WoW, and exclusivity does not only apply to stats on the items.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 10:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I think u have hit on an interesting angle, and your observations are very well assessed. But, i think that Wow has moved too far into the direction of 'equality' now and therefore theres not much chance of pulling it back.

    Most top raiders left the game a long time ago and i doubt theyll come back, mainly because theyre probably getting their 'challenging gaming fix' somewhere else in another game.
    Sadly I do agree, though the consistent, massive subscriber drop could cause Blizzard to act drastically

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Chancho221 View Post
    This is why this will be a hit or miss. The decision to make the game more exclusive would greater reward the players who did manage to complete the content. The suggestion to add a LFR realm would allow the players who could not complete the content to experience the content and practice it (as you referred to LFR as training wheels). This isn't as complex as you are making it, it's simply an argument of Socialism vs Capitalism in a videogame setting. My argument is simply that because we are humans who have motivations and aspirations and enjoy being a "special snowflake", a capitalist videogame is more 'epic' in every sense of the word, just as the greatest videogames in existence have been.
    What's the point of this for Blizzard? People like to feel the sensation of progress, being full-decked and just go kill the bosses would kill the necessity of playing afterwards. You need the "carrot-on-the-stick" to keep people playing. Especially on the days of the Rising of the Good F2P MMOs.

    This isn't economics, this is entertainment.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 11:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chancho221 View Post
    Though I still disagree with the general point you're making here, the LFR-realm I suggested would completely solve any issues you believe exist for non-raiders and casual raiders alike.
    The thing is, there isn't any. The issues are nothing more than the entitlement of some over every aspect of the game.

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