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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    Nice thread.

    We don't need more ability pruning. We have almost no abilities that don't have a valuable role in some facet of the game. (throw is pretty much it)

    Like many others in the thread have stated, our less useful abilities just need some tweaks to become super amazing things we look forward to using.

    Berserker stance is only useful for a dps warrior in pve for aoe damage. The reason for this is that you have to take an ass-ton of damage to get enough rage to even USE an ability, let alone use an ability that's worth spending that much health on when you could be in defensive stance. The way to fix this: increase the ratio of rage gained per percent health lost by a factor of like 3 or so. That way when you tunnel the warrior in 3s, they get flooded with rage and they punch you in the face. We're supposed to be the durable, ignore pain, get angry class and currently in pvp we just fall over. Berserker stance would be even more rewarding in pve as well since you could trade some lost health for big damage, rather than the 1-2 heroic strikes you get from a tortos stomp now. also, maybe they should change it to give you rage over time (3-5 seconds) so you don't overcap and you get this few second long period of lots of rage to burn through.


    I honestly preferred the vanilla/tbc method of active mitigation that was shield block on a low cooldown, low rage cost, and you just used it any time big damage was coming. I thought threat generation was more interesting of a mechanic than the current active mitigation, but i know i'm in the minority here so I won't push it.

    You guys keep saying that we need a thrown ability to make up for time we can't attack the boss. I would argue that instead of being able to use a mediocre ability at range, they need to buff our melee damage so that we outperform all these other classes while we're in melee, with a heavy punishment for being out of melee. This would make us feel like the true melee, weaponmaster and we would be slightly ahead on fights in which we have 100% uptime.

    DPS warriors have no niche. Blizzard nerfed it in cataclysm, saying that incidental aoe from whirlwind causing fury warriors to excel on multi target fights was unfair, then they turned around and let frost death knights and rogues do it. More recently warlocks gain tons of single target damage from aoeing, meanwhile, we use a 30 rage whirlwind and cleaving raging blows to do middle of the pack aoe, don't get me started on how weak arms and arms cleave is. Also, please make the actual ability, Cleave, worth using like ever.

    Prot warrior mechanics allow for good dps on aoe, they just need numbers tweaks. On single target, I'd say adding heroic strike into the rotation with a boss debuffing mechanic that lets you use it for damage as well as dmg reduction would put us more in line with dps geared monks and prot paladins.
    Last edited by Eranthe; 2013-06-13 at 03:09 PM.


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  2. #22
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    I think putting yet another set of abilities on the chopping block is not a solution at all, we've had plenty of that already. Some abilities simply need a little tweaking that's all.
    With all due respect, I disagree. More abilities does not equal more fun or more skill, just more buttons that you have to press. If we can trim a lot of abilities and consolidate them down I think everyone will be happier. Many of the abilities are either very situational (read: PVP abilities) or just should be replaced by other abilities (e.g. there's no reason to have both Storm Bolt AND Heroic Throw separate) and right now are just causing bloat so a fraction of the playerbase can play piano while they PVP/raid and eke out a bit more performance.
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  3. #23
    Funny to see you around again Zell, thought you stopped playing along time ago :-). Heck i am not the greatest warriors but i try to stay informed. The main reason warriors fell out of grace with high end raiding (and thus lower end raiding because of the trickle down effect) is due to lacking rogue/dk surviveability and ability to cheese encounter mechanics / reset stacks. Hence dividing this into several portions.

    Self cooldowns:
    To remedy our most pressing problem is fairly simple, i liked the suggestion put forward that last stand is the ultimate survival ability. Make it baseline but make it give 30% life only to tanks, make it remove all physical debuffs on application and any damage recieved that would take away over 75% of your life is halved and removes the last stand ability. Retains a 3 min cd for all specs.

    Remove shield wall completely for non-tanks. Up DBTS to 30% reduced as compensation.

    This gives us a "cheesing mechanic for dps" that will ultimately work exactly like the old one as tank, except it stops if you take a very large hit (not if you necesarily die). Lorewise it can be seen as the heroic last stand before getting hit by the ultimate ability of a skilled opponent and the warriors gets down on 1 knee before retaining his battle position. We will be able to mitigate 25% on demand by loosing out on dps (still bad'ish) and 55% every 2 minutes.

    Selfhealing:
    I am very much against the selfheal of warriors in general, the fury (bloodraged berserker) spec can have enraged regen 20% (only able to activate during enrage, yeah i like the old fashioned one!), second wind and bloodthirsts minor heal.

    However for prot and arms (the tactical fighters) I would much rather see us carving a niche for ourselves in the absorb genre with absolutely 0 "true" heals. Which would also help fix our survival issue from earlier since we still lack some of the cheesing mechanics of other classes. Which we could then compensate for by "building up" a larger virtual health pool.

    Remove second wind, enraged regen, remove enrage. Rename enrage to combat superiority and add a 10% dr to it for these 2 specs. (critting can be seen as finding and abusing kinks in the opponents defence, hence you gain the upper hand)
    Add passive to replace second wind "The last one to fall" Passively grants 3% of your maxHP as an absorb shield each second up to a max of 20% maxHP. Double while you have tactical superiority up.
    Add passive to arms "The strength of the broken enemy" adds an absorb based on your max HP for each time overpower is used, cap at 20% maxHP. Double while tactical superiority up.
    Add active "Only the armor" to arms that gives an absorb for 20% of max hp that lasts 8 seconds.

    Mobility:
    Is fine, fix to heroic leap targetting would be appreciated though.

    Raid cooldowns/externals:
    Keep the 5.4 vigilance.

    Keep rallying cry, it is our only unique raid utility and in a world of absorbs (if they keep it that way) it is a very valuable tool and one of the main reasons warriors was still brought (in some cases the only reason) into high level raiding this tier. There is the general problem with effective life going way to high with stacking certain classes so it might need a nerf to 15% added life (which incidently also nerfs the amount it reduces damage to sub 10%).

    Keep the banner, 30% reduction from everything for 15s is to much for to long with to big a radius.
    10 Second duration, 30 yard radius, buff on players that reduce damage by 20% from physical only (the opposite of paladins, but for a longer since physical is a more "rare" form of massive raiddamage historically). 2 minute cooldown. This will leave it as an interesting external/raidbuff but quite situational in its use.

    cooldowns/raid cooldowns:
    Currently it has been theorycrafted that using the skull banner for the raid is less of a dps gain than using it for yourself. We are a spec that is based around critting, both fury and arms. Currently we are scaling like crap (fury) cause we are hitting the DR of crit so hard compared to the non-dr of mastery classes. To diminish this problem of DR change mastery to +% additional damage while enraged, +% critical damage while enraged for fury. Add with an additional +% to gain an extra attack for arms while you have tactical superiority.

    Keep recklessness as is as our major personal cooldown on a 3 minute timer.

    Skull banner changed to a major raid cd along the line of stormlash totem. 5 minute CD, entire raid (100y radius) gets +15% crit boom done, now it will be better for the raid than yourself. Remove shattering throw to compensate.

    Some of these changes are completely unbalanced and i know it, but is just a general idea of the direction i would want warriors in. Where we have a niche, the utility to be wanted in raids and still retains our lore.

    Ability bloat:
    I don't really get what people are on about, with ability bloat. The rotation is 5 buttons for fury (4 for tanks woop), with a couple of extras that could be removed.
    Make our shouts a 1 hour buff (like all the rest) remove rage gain from the shout, add additional ragegain to BT/MS/SS to compensate.

    Remove heroic throw completely.

    I understand the heroic throw vs throw debate. Problem is if they give us something decent that is free we will just put it in all our empty GCDS. So perhaps change WS into 60% weapon damage for free, give a ranged throw on no CD for free that does 40% weapon damage. Let WS proc into it's current state. Don't know if that would fix it for arms as i simply do not have the experience in playing that spec. Remove heroic throw, remove storm bolt or make it a ranged stun only in the cc/snare talent department.

    This will cater to the old warriors style of filling every GCD but still allow us to save up rage.
    Last edited by Gogromar; 2013-06-13 at 03:32 PM.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    With all due respect, I disagree. More abilities does not equal more fun or more skill, just more buttons that you have to press. If we can trim a lot of abilities and consolidate them down I think everyone will be happier. Many of the abilities are either very situational (read: PVP abilities) or just should be replaced by other abilities (e.g. there's no reason to have both Storm Bolt AND Heroic Throw separate) and right now are just causing bloat so a fraction of the playerbase can play piano while they PVP/raid and eke out a bit more performance.
    gag order is a reason to have heroic throw and storm bolt separate.

    Also, pvp abilities are just as important as pve ones for some of us.

    Bloat is a silly word that only describes hunters pre cataclysm when they had 85 tracking abilities and aspects and eagle eyes and stuff. Just because you can't be bothered binding all your skills doesn't mean there's too many for some of us.

    another change i've been thinking about for a while is, let spell reflect reflect all spells cast while it's up. So it last for 4 seconds and reflects all spells casted. This would make frost mages think twice about tunneling damage into us while we sit there in a nova. Also it would prevent casters from using garbage abilities to consume the spell reflect, then nuke our face off and laugh at us.
    Last edited by Eranthe; 2013-06-13 at 03:25 PM.


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  5. #25
    The change suggestion from Op would DESTROY warrior in pvp. Obviously he doesnt touch pvp at all and doesnt think a single second about it.

    I'm against 90% of his suggested changes from a pvp perspective.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    I think putting yet another set of abilities on the chopping block is not a solution at all, we've had plenty of that already. Some abilities simply need a little tweaking that's all.

    Berserker stance for instance is one of those few things LEFT that sets apart a good from a great dps warrior, paying close attention to incoming raid damage spikes and switching to berserker for bonus rage, it feels very rewarding when you see your rage bar suddenly leap up.
    Akoroth has made this point, and it's a fair one; separating the good from the great should be supported, not culled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    1. The option to sacrifice rage/dps for self-heals and defenses. Pretty much the same thing ALL other melee have. The buffed healing talents on PTR are nice, but just can't compare to what DKs/Monks/Enhancement/Ferals/Rets can do to stay alive (Rogues have absurdly powerful survival cooldowns to compensate, and receive a buff to Recup next patch..). Something at a ratio of 20% health for 50 rage or so, something that really hurts your dps but keeps you alive when it matters most.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    2. A reliable Throw attack that hits hard enough to be comparable to Shuriken Toss, the current Throw attack is an atrocity, a lvl 60 wouldn't get hurt by that s**t. Basically just 1 reliable ranged attack that is not Heroic Throw or Stormbolt (long cd).
    Mentioned in the OP now, suggested by Akoroth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    3. The good old classic - Shieldless Shieldwall (major glyph it if you absolutely have to)
    Yep, I mentioned it as a possible talent but a glyph would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    4. Dps gear being as good for Prot Warriors as it is for Brewmasters
    Removing avoidance and giving warriors defensive value from critical strike rating is something I honestly think is going to happen in 6.0.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    5. A glyph or talent that allows a Fury or Arms warrior to do about 70-80% of DW/2H dps while a shield is equipped (so shieldwall doesn't cripple us anymore).
    You mean like Glyph of Unrelenting Assault?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  7. #27
    Rallying Cry serves also as a raid cooldown I don't see a reason why would would want it removed.

  8. #28
    I would love them to take away many abilities, also rotation abilites (for prot), and keep:
    Shield Slam (and buff dmg, and around 4 sec cd)
    Thunder Clap as the only aoe ability
    Sunder armor, for the only purpose of sundering. no rage cost though.

    I despise the whole tank dps idea, especially when prot warrior damage is so terrible at the moment

  9. #29
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirinya View Post
    Rallying Cry serves also as a raid cooldown I don't see a reason why would would want it removed.
    yeah rallying cry separates a bad fury warrior that only cares about their dps from a good one that wants their raid to live. as well as giving people a reason to even bring warriors to the current tier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 03:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nerfmagesffs View Post
    I would love them to take away many abilities, also rotation abilites (for prot), and keep:
    Shield Slam (and buff dmg, and around 4 sec cd)
    Thunder Clap as the only aoe ability
    Sunder armor, for the only purpose of sundering. no rage cost though.

    I despise the whole tank dps idea, especially when prot warrior damage is so terrible at the moment

    what do you want to be doing when you're in combat? sunder 3 times, shield slam every 4 seconds and stand there?


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  10. #30
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    what do you want to be doing when you're in combat? sunder 3 times, shield slam every 4 seconds and stand there?
    Can't say I would mind that, truth be told. I rolled a tank because I didn't want to manage dozens of abilities or have to worry about much beyond my own survivability and things like when to taunt, when to use cooldowns, and the like. I miss the simplicity of tanking as the reward for all the pressure/leadership that's required. The old days of "Wait for 5 sunders" was boring, but that was the reward of being a tank coupled with everything else.
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  11. #31
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Can't say I would mind that, truth be told. I rolled a tank because I didn't want to manage dozens of abilities or have to worry about much beyond my own survivability and things like when to taunt, when to use cooldowns, and the like. I miss the simplicity of tanking as the reward for all the pressure/leadership that's required. The old days of "Wait for 5 sunders" was boring, but that was the reward of being a tank coupled with everything else.
    I agree that tanks don't need a complicated resource/ability system to need to pay attention to when they already need to manage their own health, the raid's health, boss positioning, as well as lots of other things tanks have to worry about, but I'd like to see a happy medium between what it is now, and what you suggest, similar to how it was in vanilla-wrath. I liked old prot way more as far as rage costs and rotation smoothness. They could have added shield block and barrier to the old system without rebuilding rage generation from the ground up.


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  12. #32
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikkiller93 View Post
    The change suggestion from Op would DESTROY warrior in pvp. Obviously he doesnt touch pvp at all and doesnt think a single second about it.
    No, it wouldn't.

    It's bearing in mind that a lot of pruning would have to be done to all classes, not just warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirinya View Post
    Rallying Cry serves also as a raid cooldown I don't see a reason why would would want it removed.
    I'm not arguing that it doesn't serve as a raid cooldown - I'm arguing that warriors don't need two of them if the game wants to tackle the silly ability bloat that's going on in the game now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I’m not sure what you mean about diminishing returns, and it’s understood that keeping Die by the Sword is technically better than not keeping it; of course it is. I didn’t forget about the parry, I simply consider it an acceptable loss in a game where power creep is getting to, quite frankly, very silly levels.
    When he said DR, I'm pretty sure he meant Damage Reduction, which would still leave his sentence completely wrong, as DbtS provides a 20% damage reduction while it is up.

  14. #34
    unnerf everyone of our abilities/talents. "yes everyone has been nerfed at some point". and let the warrior class be actual warriors .

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I'm arguing that warriors don't need two of them if the game wants to tackle the silly ability bloat that's going on in the game now.
    While this might be true warriors didn't bring many raid CDs untill MoP; Skull / Demo banner. In Cata only raid utility we had was Rallying Cry, and I think it's good for warriors to have some raid utlity especially as a DPS so warrior isn't just a mindless DPS class. Nowadays warriors don't even bring Crit buff into raids anymore the only buff we bring is Attack power which can easily be brought by another class.

  16. #36
    You should just replace the OP with:

    "Blah blah blah, make us OP"

    As a tank:

    I would love to see all tanks lose their raid CDs (AM/Banner/Rally) OR give all of them some sort of raid CD.

    Vengeance only come from single target attacks and spells and not from AVOIDABLE AOE and dots.

    Remove the rage cost of impending victory.

    Change Heavy Repercussion Glyph to increase damage done by Shield Slam for 6 seconds after using Shield block or Shield Barrier.

    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE PROT AOE MORE THEN COMPLETE SHIT.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Xenlol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    With 5.4 on the PTR, it’s safe to say that the designers are going to be moving onto 6.0 in the pretty near future. We all knew that no fundamental changes were going to be made for the final patch of this expansion, so now is potentially the time when we want to start discussing how warriors could potentially look in the next expansion. This post is going to concentrate on Protection (it’s what I know the most about), but some of my thinking and/or suggestions will touch on Fury and Arms respectively, too.

    For me, I think the class needs a significant overhaul in the main and nothing less than that is going to stop warriors from effectively coming apart at the seams. Every fix has brought new problems, and it’s now time to start stripping off the bandages and casts and sorting the situation out. What I would ask people to bear in mind, however, is that I’m also of the opinion that every class needs to start losing some of its ability bloat. Please try and remember that when you want to argue that “we can’t lose anything”.

    So, let’s make a start and I’ll add or remove anything that is worth adding after it’s been discussed.

    - Remove Berserker Stance

    They’ve tried their absolute hardest to make this work, and it simply hasn’t. At this point it’s unlikely we’ll see the GCD lowering of Unholy Presence, and nobody in PvP is going to use this for rage when under attack (that’s what Defensive Stance is for). We’ve also moved away from attacks that are stance-dependent, so I reckon it’s time to retire ‘zerker once and for all.

    - Remove Demoralizing Shout and Die by the Sword

    This might seem like a strange move, but not when you read the next suggestion.

    - Rework Disarm

    Rather than having Disarm work solely in PvP and next to never in PvE, make Disarm work on everything with a flat 20% damage reduction for its duration. This means we can safely remove the spec-specific minor cooldowns with no cost to tanks and only a limited cost to damage dealers.

    - Rework Demoralizing Banner

    A raid cooldown that doesn’t work on environmental damage is simply very strange. Rename this banner to “Inspiring” and give everyone in range a flat 30% damage reduction for its duration. This would be an awful lot better than how it currently works, and will make the loss of the second mitigation cooldown (when we don’t need two, anyway) easier to swallow.

    - Remove Rallying Cry

    If our banner worked the way it does above, we can get rid of Rallying Cry as a defensive raid cooldown. Honestly? We don’t need two.

    - Make Piercing Howl baseline

    I’m still amazed this hasn’t happened yet. It’s frightening. We really need to see it happen, as it’ll allow us to:

    - Remove Hamstring

    Probably the worst snare in the game at this point, and has fallen into disuse with Piercing Howl available to everyone. We’ve moved on from it at this stage of the game, so it’s time to retire it.

    - Make Second Wind baseline

    This has already been discussed by Ghostcrawler himself and the talent dominates in PvP, so just do it. It’s a half decent talent for PvE warriors too, so making it our sole baseline heal makes sense. From this point, nobody is losing anything much with this change.

    - Return Shockwave to Protection only

    Sustained Protection warrior AoE is anaemic without Shockwave, while Arms and Fury have Whirlwind (plus talents) to cushion this blow; Protection has nothing. Even on a 40-second cooldown an AoE Kidney Shot is abnormally strong in PvP, but the nerf hit PvE tanks hard and forced them into Dragon Roar. If it’s too hard to balance, get it back where it causes the least problems – back with tanks.

    - Make Storm Bolt baseline and remove Heroic Throw - OR - Remove the cooldown on Heroic Throw

    Essentially, replace Heroic Throw with Storm Bolt and tune its damage accordingly or simply buff Heroic Throw and get rid of Storm Bolt. Heroic Throw hits for an embarrassingly low amount, particularly for tanks, and there’s simply no need for it to hit for so little. Another option, suggested by Akoroth, is to make Heroic Throw spammable so that when a warrior is rooted, or on fights such as Horridon heroic where you need a constant ranged attack, the class has one. At time of writing, warriors seem to be the only melee class that has such a dramatically limited ranged arsenal.

    - Rework Skull Banner

    Skull Banner’s AoE effect is a nice raid DPS cooldown and doesn’t need changed, but I’d also put 25% extra critical strike chance for the warrior onto Skull Banner as baseline. This allows us to:

    - Remove Recklessness

    With the same cooldown as Skull Banner, and with the effect already accounted for, we can save another spot on the ol’ action bar.

    - Rework the talent pane

    It’s relatively safe to say that too many of our talents are lacklustre, while some of my suggestions here would also prompt some necessary changes. Tier one is probably okay as it is, but Second Wind as baseline would mean the whole second tier would need reworked; more self-healing is unnecessary, but more defensive utility might be worth it.

    Something that made Disarm also reduce casting speed (Violent Disarm?) might be interesting, as would something that lets Spell Reflect absorb 50% of magical damage taken over 6 seconds and apply the remaining 50% as a DoT over 12 seconds (Consume Magic?). Finally, a talent that allows the warrior to *whispers* use Shield Wall without having a shield (Blade Ward?) would be cool, but would need to also do something for Protection.

    After that we’d need to look at the gaps left by Piercing Howl, Shockwave and Storm Bolt and also look to make some of the existing talents more attractive. With Shockwave and Storm Bolt as baseline, it’d maybe be simplest to have a buffed Bladestorm replace Storm Bolt on the final tier and remove Dragon Roar outright – it’s just not an interesting ability. That then gives us a whole new tier to get something more interesting out of.

    Anyway, that’s my general ideas for all warrior stripes as of right now; I’ll continue with the Protection specific section shortly, but will add to this as people get involved in the debate. All I ask is that we try and keep it clean and, if we can get consensus on some things we’ll flag it up to the calamitous crab himself and see what he thinks.

    Be good to each other.
    Why do you want to get rid of everything? Taking away utility via removing Rallying Cry is silly, just for an extra 20% added to Banner? There's so many % damage reductions already Rallying is a welcomed addition.

    Making Second Wind baseline with increased HP of the next tier and expac, would inevitably lead to nerfs and or reworks. They can build upon things now, but getting rid of too many abilities and giving us less control of active mitigation will make Warriors boring. It's the whole reason I started playing one.

  18. #38
    I must be strange.

    Damage output aside I am pretty happy how prot warriors stand. If they were going to hot fix something in the game right now the only things I would want would be...

    - Free whirlwind for prot (competes with devastate during aoe)
    - Increased single target damage somewhere, potentially HS and Cleave.

    I don't know much about dks but all other tanks have 1 or more aoe abilities they can chain to produce aoe threat + generate resources. Prot loses out on resource generation with thunderclap (it does debuff targets though). Having an aoe ability that replaces devastate in our normal rotation would be good. The extra damage is a given, make us shine blizz.

    Those are just a wish list. I don't plan to stop playing warrior anytime soon.

  19. #39
    Pandaren Monk Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Raid CD's: I wouldn't suggest removing one of our raid CD's unless they buffed the other to compensate. We may have two, but they are both fairly weak, you very rarely see them used separately in heroic raiding (unless assuming you use each one separately with another players raid CD).

    DBTS: I am fairly happy with, it is a lifesaver when it comes to saving or Battle Rezzing tanks. The main gripe I have with it, is that most other melee classes have an ability that completely negates mechanics (Cloak of Shadows, Deterrence is basically DBTS but better). Perhaps the fix would be to removes those instead of buffing ours.

    Meat Cleaver: I would really like to see a change here. Whirlwinding to three stacks completely screws our rotation, takes way too long, and most add fights the targets must die within a couple GCD's, making it largely useless.
    Reducing Bladestorm to 1 minute will help AOE immensely, but I'd love to see them find a way to rework Meat Cleaver so that for example: it adds as many stacks as targets you hit with Whirlwind (ie: Whirlwind hits 4 targets, you get 3 stacks of Meat Cleaver, WW hits 2 targets, you get 1 stack). Perhaps it gives us too much burst AOE, it would penalize raging blow dmg on additional targets?

    Stances: The use of stance dancing really separates the good warriors from the bad; however its inherent drawbacks make it subpar next to similar class abilities.

    Berserker Stance for example: extremely powerful when used in the right situations;
    Compare it to AMS: Any good DK looking for damage will use AMS on cooldown to absorb damage and gain extra Runic Power, in a similar manner to BzStance, however the DK also absorbs the damage, while we take full brunt. Likewise, unless we take certain amount of damage. over time BzStance becomes detrimental, if say a Priest puts a strong shield up, you just screwed yourself out of Rage due to less normal generation.

    Defensive Stance: Awesome CD, I don't even so much mind the lack of rage generation during, since it's not intended to sit in it. However, its (lack of) synergy with BzStance, is the real issue. You need to make the choice: should I be selfish and boost my DPS with BzStance, or should I help the raid with Def stance. Will this damage kill me out of Def Stance? Not so much an issue on farm, but a real one on progression. I simply think it is poor design and doesn't encourage good coordinated play in serious raiding.
    I would love to see a passive rage from damage taken, (in battle, not defensive, perhaps only Fury/Arms spec) and a change to BzStance. Not sure how yet, but it would also be nice if Prot could get some better benefit from changing stances as well.

    Talents: I love how they keep talking about overhauling the talent system, but they never change any of the garbage. Staggering Shout is jokes. I had imagined replacing Staggering with a defensive (like Demoralizing Shout as a talent), but with the recent talk of Second Wind becoming baseline, perhaps we will get something out of that instead.
    Likewise, Storm Bolt is a joke, it will take huge buffs to make it equal the dmg of Bloodbath, or burst of Avatar.
    I don't even know anyone who would take Juggernaut over Double Time. Perhaps it has niche uses but I can't think of many. I'd love a talent that really re-works charge, remove the minimum range and give it a much longer CD? Seems kind of lame, maybe something more complex. I just really enjoy talents/glyphs that re-work the way you play, even if its just to make a specific ability more useful for a specific fight. We have a talent that lets us charge more, how about one that lets us charge less and does something different.

    Colossus Smash: My last gripe (for now!), for the love of god, make it not able to be parried! Or optionally, bosses cannot parry while casting. I cannot count how many times a careless boss movement, or decided to cast right as I'm hitting CSmash. Now maybe I should be better about watching cast timers and delay a second, but I personally think a lost CSmash penalizes Warriors much harder than most any other class.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-06-14 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Formatting

  20. #40
    Without getting into everything else, I DO wish we had some kind of (non-talented) ranged attack other than a 30s CD Heroic Throw, and regular Throw which doesn't even tickle mobs. I think either the CD should be lowered on HT, OR, make Throw do some okay damage(50% weapon damage maybe), and keep the CD on Heroic Throw but buff it's damage(and maybe let it apply Deep Wounds). That way, if you get rooted or have to stay off the mob for an extended period you can HT to put/keep DW up a bit longer and get one reasonably strong attack in, then you can use regular Throw to at least do some damage(cause 300-400 points a hit is not cutting it).

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