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  1. #81
    I'm really not sure what they can do with Warriors that won't break PvE traditions WHILST actually fixing PvP. The games are just so, so different.

    For starters, we need to consider what Blizzard will do with regard to Ability bloat across the board. My best guess is that the passives that we pick up from L3-90 will be removed for the most part in in favour of an active and expansive talent system. Do you know what works WELL with the new talent system? For the most part, people pick what they want. None of that 3/3 or 5/5 crap that you HAD to take (in some cases whether you liked it or not!) But, we're landed with so much stuff! In order to reduce ability bloat, in 6.0, I think our talent tree will consist of the MAJORITY of our skills. You'll actually have to elect to pick Cleave, and Banners, and Thunder Clap, with only a few key skills (Disarm, maybe... and Charge, Battle Shout) being mandatory.

    What does this solve? Well, ability bloat for a start, because (again, hypothetically) you'll only be able to choose 60% of the talents on offer. That means you'll have no more than 18 abilities (as an example) and also a limited number of passives. Are you a Fury warrior who only really like Single Target stuff? Forget Cleave, then, and Thunder Clap, and Whirlwind. In exchange, you can have Throwdown, Rend, and Warrior Vendetta. Of course, this would need some balancing - but what I forsee is an increase in the NUMBER of talent rows (although the layout might be different - like the old 'trees') and far fewer baseline abilities. I expect to have to chose between three types of stun, AoE skill, charge, banner (to wear), raid cooldown, shield skill, armour buff, ranged ability, etc. But not just that, the system would actually incorporate lots of our standard 'you get this at level X' into the trees so we 'pick' more of the skills we end up with. My 18 level 90 active abilities might be 64% similar to yours; I have Cleave, Whirlwind and Demo Shout - you have Throwdown, Improved Hamstring, and Zerker Stance.

    Regarding Stances, I still think they should do what I thought they should do 2 years ago, and that is to have Zerker Stance as a (Blade Flurry) AoE stance. Make the Stance 'modify' 5-6 abilities to hit multiple (3-6?) opponents. Heroic Strike would become Cleave; i.e. Throwdown would become Shockwave; Mortal Strike would become Mortal Slash; RB, Devastate, Slam, Wild Strike, etc would all 'meatcleaver' for 100% of their damage or something. Essentially Blade Flurry for Warriors. It would make AoE dynamic, it would make stance dancing FUN, and it would mean that we wouldn't need a completely, separate (and awkward) rotation for AoE (hello Fury).

    Disarm is solid, and should have a bearing on casters to the same level that Silence affects us.

    Piercing Howl SHOULD be baseline, I agree.

    Rend should replace Hamstring and provide the Bloodbath effect which would be REFRESHED by MS, BT and Shield Slam. Remove Deep Wounds - it's lazy.

    Shield Use might get a new UI, but for the TWO abilities that we have, I think we need to just get rid of shields for DPS warriors and give them abilities that don't require them. Angle the hilt of your weapon to reflect the next spell, etc.

    Charge needs a 2-sec 70% sprint at the end to catch up to moving target. The current stun isn't good enough. Either that or the Warbringer effect (5.4) needs to be baseline.

    Heroic Leap needs more leeway... we really can't afford not to jump up 4% inclines in Twin Peaks. It's getting silly. It's a 'cool' ability, but it really, really, really, isn't working to the consistency it needs to in PvP. Flat arenas MIGHT be okay, but for World PVP, RBGs, and BGs, it's simply too poorly done.

    CHARGE... needs to generate 100 rage. Very sick of getting into a PVP fight, spending the rage I have on Thunderclap/Hamstring and not being able to do much else. "CS or MS, then - they're rage-free" is a valid argument EXCEPT that our PvE rotation on Arena and PvP in general is PREDICTABLE. With their 100 energy a rogue can do one of many things.. we are much more limited in that regard. Generating full rage with charge would allow us to burst during our pitiful uptime on ranged classes (currently) and would also limit more "not enough rage" problems during clutch defensive situations.

    Have Energy as a main resource. And RAGE as a secondary. I know you won't like this, but hear me out:

    Having Energy refresh at a certain speed will do LITTLE TO NOTHING to the amount of times you can hit Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, MS, etc, etc because it will be TUNED to let you generate the same amount of rage! Having energy as a main resource (instead of time/cooldowns) will simply mean that is we NEEEEED that Thunderclap because the Rogue is going Swifty, then we can hit it. As it stands, Rage generation when separated from a target (i.e. a Mage or Hunter) is almost non-existent. Being able to get to that target and having the Energy to Disarm, Stun, Thunderclap or whatever else costs rage, would be a huge quality of life improvement. We're the only class with an archaic and poorly balanced resource. I don't want a secondary resource because it's 'cool' I want one because using Energy for some more clutch stuff will mean we can have Rage for FUN stuff, like Raging Blow, Slam, etc. There have been too many times when I haven't had enough rage for a clutch Thunderclap, or Shattering Throw for me not to think this is a good idea. Important Stuff: ENERGY... Bonus Stuff: RAGE! I know it's a bit 'Rogueish' but it would also alleviate this buff-nerf cycles we've been stuck in since vanilla! it would also make Haste more attractive.

    More than anything I want to be able to stick to my target more. I want to be updated to be able to deal with Post Haste, Readiness, 25sec Deep Freezes, Emancipate, Freedom, Deaths Advance, Necrotic Strike on my Second Wind, etc. Get rid of Throw and Heroic Throw. Stormbolt Baseline makes SOOO much sense. Give us some kind of stickability.
    Last edited by Jez7; 2013-06-17 at 03:19 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    For starters, we need to consider what Blizzard will do with regard to Ability bloat across the board. My best guess is that the passives that we pick up from L3-90 will be removed for the most part in in favour of an active and expansive talent system. Do you know what works WELL with the new talent system? For the most part, people pick what they want. None of that 3/3 or 5/5 crap that you HAD to take (in some cases whether you liked it or not!) But, we're landed with so much stuff! In order to reduce ability bloat, in 6.0, I think our talent tree will consist of the MAJORITY of our skills. You'll actually have to elect to pick Cleave, and Banners, and Thunder Clap, with only a few key skills (Disarm, maybe... and Charge, Battle Shout) being mandatory.
    Ghostcrawler is on record as saying that he considers the talent pane in MoP a pretty overwhelming success. Yes, for warriors it's garbage, but all in all they're going to stick with it because they think it's great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    What does this solve? Well, ability bloat for a start, because (again, hypothetically) you'll only be able to choose 60% of the talents on offer. That means you'll have no more than 18 abilities (as an example) and also a limited number of passives. Are you a Fury warrior who only really like Single Target stuff? Forget Cleave, then, and Thunder Clap, and Whirlwind. In exchange, you can have Throwdown, Rend, and Warrior Vendetta.
    Unfortunately, people will simply take all of the single target abilities the vast majority of the time because that's what matters; bosses. Trash is trash, few will spec for it, which means Cleave, Thunderclap and Whirlwind would only be chosen on add-related fights.

    Even then, it's not a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    Regarding Stances, I still think they should do what I thought they should do 2 years ago, and that is to have Zerker Stance as a (Blade Flurry) AoE stance. Make the Stance 'modify' 5-6 abilities to hit multiple (3-6?) opponents. Heroic Strike would become Cleave; i.e. Throwdown would become Shockwave; Mortal Strike would become Mortal Slash; RB, Devastate, Slam, Wild Strike, etc would all 'meatcleaver' for 100% of their damage or something. Essentially Blade Flurry for Warriors. It would make AoE dynamic, it would make stance dancing FUN, and it would mean that we wouldn't need a completely, separate (and awkward) rotation for AoE (hello Fury).
    I do like that notion, actually, but it implies more action bar bloat to account for tallied up single target and multi-target buttons. Also, min-maxing would simply involve another pile of macros that would fast be considered "mandatory".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    Rend should replace Hamstring and provide the Bloodbath effect which would be REFRESHED by MS, BT and Shield Slam. Remove Deep Wounds - it's lazy.
    Effectively, they have the tech for this; we saw it with Lambs to the Slaughter in Cataclysm before Rend got ditched in favour of an entirely passive bleed effect with no gameplay value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    Shield Use might get a new UI, but for the TWO abilities that we have, I think we need to just get rid of shields for DPS warriors and give them abilities that don't require them. Angle the hilt of your weapon to reflect the next spell, etc.
    I see this a lot and I'm just not sure about removing shield requirements. If the game had a lot of its CC gutted across the board (as I believe it should), the glaring issues with Spell Reflect would be less... Glaring. As for Shield Wall, I think that if we're going to have a cooldown that doesn't need a shield (we currently have Die by the Sword and I'd prefer it to be Disarm), then using Shield Wall is an additional option we have beyond what would otherwise be expected.

    Honestly, I'm fine with shields, but would support the idea of using glyphs to tackle this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    Charge needs a 2-sec 70% sprint at the end to catch up to moving target. The current stun isn't good enough. Either that or the Warbringer effect (5.4) needs to be baseline.

    Heroic Leap needs more leeway... we really can't afford not to jump up 4% inclines in Twin Peaks. It's getting silly. It's a 'cool' ability, but it really, really, really, isn't working to the consistency it needs to in PvP. Flat arenas MIGHT be okay, but for World PVP, RBGs, and BGs, it's simply too poorly done.
    It's funny that movement hasn't been a warrior weakness since WotLK, yet a lot of people nowadays complain that their mobility is bad. Warrior mobility is epic; it's our resistance to control that's terrible. I do agree with cleaning up Heroic Leap, though, but I think it gets better every patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    Have Energy as a main resource. And RAGE as a secondary.
    I'm not sure about your suggestion (it has its merits) because it just sounds more like some form of druid-bastardisation type of deal.

    I keep tackling with rage because it's the cause of so many ills across the class, but I also keep being confronted with the fact that they've tried to normalize it so many times for improvement and it's just never worked; that's why, for me, rage should look something like Burning Embers. Every rotational attack, including white swings, should build some rage. When you cap out at 100, you gain one charge of "Pooled Hatred" up to a maximum of three. From here, certain special attacks will use a charge of Pooled Hatred and they should be both DPS additions as well as some necessary utility. Heroic Strike is an obvious candidate here, but also Enraged Regeneration and our now lost Heroic Fury could use Pooled Hatred. I reckon some cooldowns would probably be necessary to avoid silly amounts of burst (any attack would need buffed) or complete freedom from control, but you could technically even make certain abilities cost more than one charge of Pooled Hatred.

    Truthfully, I might flesh this idea out fully and see where it goes. That said, I'm not sure too many people could stomach another rage redesign but I believe people would just like to see it work properly. Although... Are warriors the only class that run from a single resource system these days?

  3. #83
    I am sorry, but its just not possible to say "ok we will only discuss prot warriors", and then completely disregard pve dps and pvp warriors all together.
    Your changes would completely cripple both good pve dps warriors and every damn pvp warrior out there.

    It simply makes no sense at all, so i suggest you take this into consideration, and stop tunnelvisioning regarding class changes.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiftyonred View Post
    I am sorry, but its just not possible to say "ok we will only discuss prot warriors", and then completely disregard pve dps and pvp warriors all together.
    Which parts of my post are Protection-specific?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiftyonred View Post
    Your changes would completely cripple both good pve dps warriors and every damn pvp warrior out there.
    In what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiftyonred View Post
    It simply makes no sense at all, so i suggest you take this into consideration, and stop tunnelvisioning regarding class changes.
    Prove it. Instead of comments like "it simply makes no sense at all", which has zero conversational value, bring something to a debate instead of trying to kill it.

    Your entire approach is absurd.

  5. #85
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    I really think one of the best changes would be to get rid of Rage entirely (yes I know!) and give us some kind of Chi/Combo Points type of thing. I absolutely loved how Warriors operated in Rift where they used Attack Points (up to 3) and Energy; it was smooth and fluid (you built up AP with builders, and spent them on consumers).

    Of course that's a pipe dream since it would be a complete rework of everything with the class.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I really think one of the best changes would be to get rid of Rage entirely (yes I know!) and give us some kind of Chi/Combo Points type of thing. I absolutely loved how Warriors operated in Rift where they used Attack Points (up to 3) and Energy; it was smooth and fluid (you built up AP with builders, and spent them on consumers).

    Of course that's a pipe dream since it would be a complete rework of everything with the class.
    So go play rift / reroll a rogue/monk/paladin then but leave my warrior alone!!!

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    So go play rift / reroll a rogue/monk/paladin then but leave my warrior alone!!!
    What a silly thing to say.

    Not liking something about a class doesn't mean you don't like anything about the class. That's the type of logic that strangles innovation in the crib.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    What a silly thing to say.

    Not liking something about a class doesn't mean you don't like anything about the class. That's the type of logic that strangles innovation in the crib.
    Humor me, wheres the innovation in taking a already implemented (and poorly done) resource system and tacking it onto warrior, dont we have enough of that designer lazyiness already ?
    I dont think the current rage model is bad, so i cant offer a better solution to a nonexistent problem in my world.
    I do however know how much i hate the resource systems mentioned by Arothhand and decided to voice my concern against it.

    instead of homogenizing warriors into the 4th class with a poor resource system, lets not and leave my warrior alone!!?! :P
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-06-17 at 01:25 PM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    So go play rift / reroll a rogue/monk/paladin then but leave my warrior alone!!!
    Relax buddy, I did say it was a pipe dream (and I do have a Paladin, see siggy).

    Realistically speaking though, the Warrior class needs some overhauls because right now it's suffering from a lot of problems.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Humor me, wheres the innovation in taking a already implemented (and poorly done) resource system and tacking it onto warrior, dont we have enough of that designer lazyiness already ?
    I dont think the current rage model is bad, so i cant offer a better solution to a nonexistent problem in my world.
    I do however know how much i hate the resource systems mentioned by Arothhand and decided to voice my concern against it.

    instead of homogenizing warriors into the 4th class with a poor resource system, lets not and leave my warrior alone!!?! :P
    And where's the value in saying "I hate that, don't do that" without explaining why?

    This post I've quoted is infinitely better than your first because you've explained yourself; you believe energy/combo-points are a flawed system that don't work very well, and you don't think it's a solution (where you don't even see a problem).

    That's totally fair enough.

    But for me, rage has some issues:

    1) The throttling means haste does nothing for tanks and the way we spend it isn't interesting.
    2) For DPS, the build and spend model is (again) uninteresting because it's just more damage and not much else.
    3) In PvP, warriors have problems because they start with an empty bar and lack the grip to fill it efficiently.

    All of these are problems and they're becoming more and more manifest as time goes on. Blizzard have tried throttling rage, now to a ridiculous extent in MoP, and it's not worked out because of other design flaws (like Fury and Enrage uptime...). In my view, it's time to stop throttling rage and, instead, start embracing it. I'd like to see it flow freely so that full rage bars are a relatively common site, but with some back up and actual utility built in. This is where my Pooled Hatred idea comes from which, though similar to Burning Embers, can provide more than just extra damage via Chaos Bolt - it can be worked into a far larger part of the warrior kit in PvE and PvP.

    Similarly, all Arothand is saying is that he likes the way the combo-point system works for other classes and that he feels it might be a decent fit for warriors. Sure, you can say "go play a paladin if you want a tank with Holy Power". But what if he also likes Revenge, Heroic Leap, Skull Banner, Disarm or Avatar?

  11. #91
    Rage was an interesting mechanic all the way up to cataclysm. it had its weaknesses, but every resource system is supposed to.

    Mana based classes are not limited by their resource in the short term, but need to regen it at some point (reducing their dps while they do so)

    Rage and energy based classes are limited in the amount of a resource they can spend in the short term, but never need to "rest", and can keep that slow and steady pace going indefinitely.

    This was how it used to be. Everything's changed now and you have classes like mages and ret paladins that never need to stop and regen, and that has diminished the coolness of rage.

    Rage was a very satisfying mechanic when you generated it from damage dealt, damage taken, and extra on crits. It made warriors scale more than any class in the entire game, and yeah, at the beginning of an expansion it wasn't as fun as it could be, but it was bearable, and you traded that short term not-so-fun playstyle for being incredibly strong in the later tiers. I liked it better, but i understand not everyone does.



    tl;dr once again, rage isn't an uninteresting mechanic. the way it's currently implemented and by comparison to mana based classes that never have to regen, it makes rage seem silly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 02:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Blizzard have tried throttling rage, now to a ridiculous extent in MoP, and it's not worked out because of other design flaws (like Fury and Enrage uptime...). In my view, it's time to stop throttling rage and, instead, start embracing it. I'd like to see it flow freely so that full rage bars are a relatively common site, but with some back up and actual utility built in.
    I agree that overflowing with rage and having to burn it off was more interesting than never having enough rage, but I don't see any reason to go with something new that's probably going to have some glaring problems that we don't yet realize, when we already had a working rage model with a few drawbacks before.

    I like changes to the class. New abilities are fun and refresh my interest, but blizzard keeps DRAMATICALLY changing the entire design of the class and what it does well and it really makes the class feel totally alien compared to what I started playing in 2006. (rerolled from hunter) I just want it to be like it used to be, with some slight quality of life improvements. I want people to be punished if they tunnel me and flood me with rage, I want to excel on multi target fights, I want to be able to convert tons of rage to tons of damage.


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  12. #92
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    I think we might need to evaluate what the niche of each Warrior spec should be, and that might brainstorm into more ideas. Right now we have a tank spec, and two DPS specs that need to be kept roughly equal lest one of them fall by the wayside. But could we possibly expand that niche without losing too much and without forcing things like "Fury is the raiding DPS spec, Arms is the PVP spec" like we had before?
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  13. #93
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    I actually don't see a good reason to not let us just spell reflects with our weapon, in many movies/animations you can see characters reflecting casts with their weapons, and it isn't much different from reflecting it with shield, for fury and arms it could be called spell deflection, shorter cd but only 1 spell deflected where reflection could have 3 charges but with longer cd.
    If it was up to me, i would either go with just one type of equipment for all abilities or make warriors actually "weapon" dance a lot, or at least a bit- as it would kind of make sense.
    The other ability that uses Shield is shield wall, it cold work as it does now but for arms/fury could have its name changed to make it work, like... stolidity or smth.

  14. #94
    I like the idea of intervening our own banners and strongly agree that warriors (prot) need another aoe and/or range ability. A friend and I discussed a possibility what we would like to see, it would be similar to what blizzard has developed in upcoming raid. Whirling glaive toss (double sided glaive/sword, not to be confused with hunters glaive toss) : warrior throws a whirling glaive at a desired location. Glaive countinues to whirl in place for 30 seconds before returning to the warrior. If the warrior enters within 5 yards of its raidus the glaive is considered returned and resets the cool down. May be intevened, 30 second cool down.

    My only other suggestion would be to make cleave more cleave-y, why limit it to one additional target when it should hit all in front of the warrior. This or remove heroic strike and cleave and replace them with smash, which acts like heroic strike but evenly distributes the damage among surrounding targets.
    Last edited by XquisiteX; 2013-06-17 at 09:32 PM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    But for me, rage has some issues:

    1) The throttling means haste does nothing for tanks and the way we spend it isn't interesting.
    Yeh, im not sayin rage is perfect, neither in this incarnation or last expo's but its exponetionally better than a combo point system, although i should have phrased it better.
    From a prot pov, im way more intruiged by crit scaling then making haste useful, actually only problem i have with haste for any spec is that hero feels weak.
    I'd like them to scale crit with crit block and(/or) some form of rage gained, rather then the enrage effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by XquisiteX View Post
    My only other suggestion would be to make cleave more cleave-y, why limit it to one additional target when it should hit all in front of the warrior. This or remove heroic strike and cleave and replace them with smash, which acts like heroic strike but evenly distributes the damage among surrounding targets.
    I wouldn't mind if cleave hit 3+ targets again(no glyph!!!) with a reduced rage cost when hitting 3+ targets or similar. Say 15 rage instead of 30. Or keep the rage cost but quadruple the damage lol. I dont even have cleave on my bars anymore...

    That or half the cooldown on tclap and buff the damage slightly.
    Please no more abilities :P
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-06-18 at 09:24 AM.

  16. #96
    They really need to just go back to the Cata system of rage generation. They also need to go back to a very similar arms rotation to the Cata one.

    Punishing us for our rage system while letting everyone swim in their specific resource and just not be limited by it AT ALL is utterly stupid.

    We need to have better grip. We need to not be forced to be reliant on macros to even be viable. We need to not rely on having one other player around just to beat a single other player of any other class.

    I propose that safeguard gets revamped and heroic leap breaks roots. Hamstring needs to be removed from the gcd and last longer than other slows in PvP.

    I also propose that EVERY class lose some of it's burst cooldowns as well as some of their defensive cds. I propose that warriors specifically lose all of our banners, the damage boost on zerker rage as well as nerfing the burst on avatar. On the defensive end, if we were to have to weapon swapping added to the actual game ui instead of being forced to macro it, I would gladly lose shield wall and/or dbts for shield barrier and shield block for all specs as well as the return of wotlk revenge.
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  17. #97
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    They should make heroic strike more interesting... a high crit chance like in Cata and I'd kinda satisfied. Talents and glyphs need a massive rehaul though. Maybe change Second Wind to 2% healing every 4th sec all the time(might need a new name for that though)? Scrap the first tier etc... lots of work!
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  18. #98
    Remove Warrior so I can break my chains and play some other classes.

  19. #99
    Rage is the reason fury warriors are even interresting to play. If you want another resource system, there's plenty of other classes to play.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Rage is the reason fury warriors are even interresting to play. If you want another resource system, there's plenty of other classes to play.
    Would you mind expanding on that?

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