Any news on Thrall in 5.4 PTR?

[Seezer]

And yet again Thrall is part of the expansions final boss.... >.<

Thrall put Garrosh in power. Damn right he should be there. Wait, oh I forgot "Greeen Jaaayzusss. THrall Greeyn Jaaaayzuss. Waaaah BLizzz"

[Florena]

Thrall put Garrosh in power. Damn right he should be there. Wait, oh I forgot "Greeen Jaaayzusss. THrall Greeyn Jaaaayzuss. Waaaah BLizzz"

He's not even in the final boss. So far as we know Thrall's role in SoO is to get smacked across the room by Garrosh.

[Deleted]

Thrall got fucking owned in that little 10 second fight there. Should put his god damn Doomhammer armour on and actually start acting like the warchief he once was rather than just relying on the elements all the time.

[Trassk]

Thrall got fucking owned in that little 10 second fight there. Should put his god damn Doomhammer armour on and actually start acting like the warchief he once was rather than just relying on the elements all the time.

He wasn't, thats the point of it. Garrosh stopped Thrall from summoning the elements, and its suggested Garrosh has become more powerful because of the old gods heart. Now, Thrall is already a powerful warrior, since in his book twilight of the aspects, he fought against an empowered blackmoore with time travelling powers, and beat the shit out of him, though he fought with a combined effort of his strength and control over the elements.

[Florena]

He wasn't, thats the point of it. Garrosh stopped Thrall from summoning the elements, and its suggested Garrosh has become more powerful because of the old gods heart. Now, Thrall is already a powerful warrior, since in his book twilight of the aspects, he fought against an empowered blackmoore with time travelling powers, and beat the shit out of him, though he fought with a combined effort of his strength and control over the elements.

Actually, Thrall was able to. Sure, Garrosh has his little spiel about torturing the elements, but then Thrall is shown wielding them saying "Never powerless Garrosh. And never alone." And Garrosh had not yet empowered himself with the heart of y'shaarj, he does that during the fight itself.

[mcbubble]

"Never Powerless Garrosh, and Never alone"...BOOOM - bitchslap across the room.

[Trassk]

Actually, Thrall was able to. Sure, Garrosh has his little spiel about torturing the elements, but then Thrall is shown wielding them saying "Never powerless Garrosh. And never alone." And Garrosh had not yet empowered himself with the heart of y'shaarj, he does that during the fight itself.

Thrall still summoned some power to himself but not enough to blast the shit out of garrosh, so that didn't change. And if I'm suppose to believe he could throw Thrall across a room without having a strength bonus from, oh I dunno, an evil force he's been in close contact with lately, then yeah, that makes sense.

[Deleted]

Anyone claiming that Garrosh has a chance against Thrall without weakening the elements and the Heart on hand must be high. Sure, Thrall put on a light-show but that doesn't mean he wasn't weakened by it, my bet is he was giving Garry one more shot to stand down peacefully.

And to answer your sentiment, Zulkhan, yes people become more extreme versions of themselves through development, not all character progress is positive, etc. etc. Now, how many of you have actually read the Shattering? Because Garrosh's thought processes are clearly explained and the character in that book isn't a villain. He's a dick, sure, his hypocrisy is already established, yes, but overall, he leaves the book cowed or at least a more positive person. Let's not forget that he did try to tell Thrall he would fuck up when he got the post, and lo and behold he did. But the reason I state this is not so much for Garrosh, but for the Dragonmaw.

You see, while the Dragonmaw in Cataclysm were differently leaning closer to the Old Horde than to Thrall's, there was a very specific reason that Zaela mentioned for siding with Garrosh that became null and void later on, namely that he could keep the varied races of the Horde together. When that became clearly false instead of just run-ins with other faction leaders (and by other faction leaders I mean Vol'jin) in MoP, she still stuck around for some unfathomable reason. This turn deprives the Dragonmaw of the chance to reform.

I'll give you this though, Trassk, yeah I do like Garrosh for bringing in conflict. In Cata because I was a poor ignorant soul thinking the faction conflict could be gray, and in Mists because fighting against his vision of the Horde is what really gives a chance for the rest of the characters within it to shine. That's the reason I don't want Thrall to attend, despite it being nominally his fault that Garrosh was appointed (while players mostly hated him, let's not forget that story-wise he had immense popular support from the Horde, even in Tides of War it was all races of the horde cheering his name after he blew up Theramore), it cheapens what a stand it is for the other races only tangentially related to the Horde at first to stand up for what they believe is right.

Which reminds me. I do apologize for one thing, namely stating that Thrall has no flaws. Like Garrosh's turn to villainy, it's not that he doesn't have flaws, it's just that they are very poorly presented.

[Florena]

I don't know. I can see the argument that maybe Thrall's connection with the elements was weakened, even if not completely blocked, but if Garrosh had been empowered by the heart before the boss fight, I think we'd see some signs of it like in Malkorok's boss model, etc. It doesn't seem to me like Garrosh has used it on himself until forced to in his boss fight. He does have his corrupt gorehowl thing as a powerful weapon, but so far as I cna tell he's not empowered himself yet.

[Velshin]

I know right? Think about how Grom died compared to Garrosh. Grom might have done some crazy shit himself, but he actually tried to do what he did for the right reasons. Well you could argue that Grom saying 'I freed myself' could be perceived as selfish, at least what he actually did was for the good for all. Garrosh.. theres none of this.

Indeed your are right and the way Garrosh was yelling and crying at his defeat sound file remind me of the TBC version of Garrosh. It's as if he is reverting to his old whiny pathetic kid.

[Trassk]

Indeed your are right and the way Garrosh was yelling and crying at his defeat sound file remind me of the TBC version of Garrosh. It's as if he is reverting to his old whiny pathetic kid.

Actually.. Yeah, when you think about it, thats quite brilliant. Garrosh, as we first knew him was a whiny, selfish little man-bitch who cried about his daddy issues well not giving a fuck about anyone else. And now he's actually dying, he's crying about the world not being his, and he never got his way... he didn't even mention his father, hell, he desecrates the memory of his father in casting off the gorehowl in favor of a corrupted mock up of it.

He had one chance to redeem himself, to show his fathers memory meant something.. and yet, this is the ironic thing.. Arthas has more of redeeming quality in him then Garrosh does, since Arthas died in conversation with his father.

Garrosh literally became nothing. He ends up exactly as he started as, that crying douche at the fire in nagrand.

Its simply amazing, that garrosh fan boys, even with this, even with the character having none, No honor, no respect, no decency, and only wanting power and things for himself, they still praise this dickhead.

Simply amazing..

[arcaneshot]

Which reminds me. I do apologize for one thing, namely stating that Thrall has no flaws. Like Garrosh's turn to villainy, it's not that he doesn't have flaws, it's just that they are very poorly presented.

No, it's not that they're poorly presented, it's just that people are too willing to gloss over them in favor of trying to make Thrall look 'perfect.' Yes, it's ironic Thrall is often blasted for being 'perfect', but you really do have to ignore just about everything he did in order to come to that conclusion.

[Deleted]

No one praises Garrosh because he's good at his job, save perhaps in terms of conquest that was more the whims of the plot. We like him because he's a conflicted character. Or used to anyway. Now it's evolved into a macabre fascination with how the writers will fuck with him next. He manages to be interesting even as his delusions of grandeur, orcish supremacy and surpassing his father fall apart around him and he's reduced to a whimpering reminder of what he was before Thrall gave him the courage to pursue his suicidal ambition. His death ties into well with his established hypocrisy, the one trait to stick around in every incarnation.

That's just me though. I imagine there are people who honestly think he's heroic, but I don't understand them.

arcaneshot, if by people you mean the writers, then yes. Which character has called Thrall out on his failures and been presented as justified? Just one will do.

[Trassk]

No one praises Garrosh because he's good at his job, save perhaps in terms of conquest that was more the whims of the plot. We like him because he's a conflicted character. Or used to anyway. Now it's evolved into a macabre fascination with how the writers will fuck with him next. He manages to be interesting even as his delusions of grandeur, orcish supremacy and surpassing his father fall apart around him and he's reduced to a whimpering reminder of what he was before Thrall gave him the courage to pursue his suicidal ambition. His death ties into well with his established hypocrisy, the one trait to stick around in every incarnation.

That's just me though. I imagine there are people who honestly think he's heroic, but I don't understand them.

arcaneshot, if by people you mean the writers, then yes. Which character has called Thrall out on his failures and been presented as justified? Just one will do.

well, there morons.

Christie Golden, whos worked tightly with the development team for the current story, summed Garrosh up perfectly, when comparing to someone like Jaina. As she said, Garrosh is a character who despite his outward bravado, has weak inside, at his core. Where a character like Jaina, who loses everything and everyone she knew, she still could stand and pull though it, because of her core personality being strong, someone like Garrosh is without this, and at his core he's a weak, malleable character.

Funny thing, I think of my mother when thinking of this subject. Before I was born, she had a son, who died when he was 12 to cancer. My mum nearly died of misery from this loss, and even debated killing herself with an overdose one day. But something kept her going, that she wanted to be a mother again and have children to love again. And, she did, me and my brother, and now, she's a grandmother. It was her resolve to keep going, with nothing to support her but her own will that got her past it all.

So you see, when I read about character who act strong, but are weak at the core of there being, who want to hurt others because of there own inability to hold themselves together, such people are just weak and pathetic. Thats all garrosh is, a weak, pathetic character with a shallow nature, and his fanboys who are so strung up by his bravado, they've never gotten just how weak he is at his core.

[Deleted]

If you define fanboys as people who back him up because he's outwardly the tough orc stereotype, yes. But I'd argue that precisely because of the fact that he puts so much effort into appearing as something he isn't, that he has so many flaws that they've by far overshadowed any positives he might have ever shown, that's what makes him interesting. Not a hero or a fitting leader for the Horde as it is now, but an interesting character nonetheless. In his death he gets no more reason to keep the mask up anymore and just admits to himself and everyone watching that he didn't have the will that made his father decent, if only in his last moments.

I guess that sort of makes for a cohesive image, if not a good one, Golden's interpretation that is. Though given how Jaina snapped and took part in genocide, I can't say I can really back that view of her up...

[Trassk]

I guess that sort of makes for a cohesive image, if not a good one, Golden's interpretation that is. Though given how Jaina snapped and took part in genocide, I can't say I can really back that view of her up...

yeee... I get the impression that well you have writers like golden, who can do these really great stories that give depth to wow character and there situation (she made me really hate malkorok), the ingame design team for the lore often isn't anywhere near as good, and make a lot of cockups, at the expense of the games own story. Heck, often when you see a literary version of an event in the game in book form, it more often then not is completely different, like how in twilight of the aspects, it was Thrall who witnessed Kalec becoming aspect of magic, yet in the game, thrall isn't there, and the player is there giving the staff so they can claim it as a legendary? .. yeah, often the writers get completely balls up when they expand the story into other mediums.

If something like golden wrote that happened in dalaran, I'd be convinced of there being more character depth to Jaina's action. as it stands, the event was so cut and dry theres nothing you can take from it.

[Deleted]

Golden is undoubtedly a better writer than Metzen and Co. Not even superficial details like Malkorok's appearance carried over into MoP, not to mention how Jaina seemed to forget the lesson about letting go of her hate. Meh, what can you do? Except switch the writing team, anyway, but that's not happening.

[Trassk]

I just find it strange how someone like golden is very much on the ball with current story and able to adapt her writing around whats happening, with what feels like respect to the characters, where as the ingame lore developers like kosak, don't seem to give the same respect back to golden, in just snuffing stuff she writes about in the books in favor of either oversimplifying it, or turning it around and making cuts.

I don't blame metzen, infact his book 'of blood and honor' is a very good one and really fleshed out Eitrigg and Tirion. I blame it on the ingame writers themselves who don't adapt the game well enough with the more detailed scripts. The bombing of theramore in the book was powerful and tragic, showing the breaking of one of wow's most noted heroes. Ingame.. it did nothing to show this.

[Deleted]

his connection with the elements is gone while he face garrosh before the fight so basically he cannot fight at full force while garrosh can and is wielding his new horrible corrupted gorehowl and that's how he prevail.

[Florena]

his connection with the elements is gone while he face garrosh before the fight so basically he cannot fight at full force while garrosh can and is wielding his new horrible corrupted gorehowl and that's how he prevail.

Not true. Thrall shows that, at least in part, he's able to commune with the elements. You even see him glowing. "Never powerless. And never alone."