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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    You're completely outgearing the content you do....
    Never said I wasn't, but I haven't always. It's my alt so I'm not getting to see tons of heroic content

  2. #22
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifebind View Post
    Never said I wasn't, but I haven't always. It's my alt so I'm not getting to see tons of heroic content
    What he's getting at is that it is the reason why you fare well with the haste heavy, defense neglecting, playstyle. If you were undergearing the content, the haste setup would most definitely cost you dearly. So you shouldn't be advising it for 10M tanks, but for tanks that are overgearing the content they play.

    A 10H tank could very well go for the haste setup if he had full hc gear, just as a 25N tank with heroic gear would be advised to go for the haste setup (unless his healers still wear PvP gear). But a 10N tank with sub 500 gear isn't really going to do any good focusing on haste.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    What he's getting at is that it is the reason why you fare well with the haste heavy, defense neglecting, playstyle.
    How is this playstyle defense neglecting?

    It plays similar to Paladins - lots of haste equates to lots of blood shields, smaller maybe than a mastery heavy build but more frequent. More stacks of the buff on DS helps fill that gap as well. I think you are short selling this a bit

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboyslol View Post
    How is this playstyle defense neglecting?

    It plays similar to Paladins - lots of haste equates to lots of blood shields, smaller maybe than a mastery heavy build but more frequent. More stacks of the buff on DS helps fill that gap as well. I think you are short selling this a bit
    Because you can in no way compare DK haste to Prot Pally haste....
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  5. #25
    I switched to haste right when I got the legendary meta and my ilvl was about 510-515. The amazing part was how it really didn't effect my "defense" because I get so many death strikes and they hit really hard. If anything, it made things easier on my healers because my damage is more constant instead of spiky.

    ***As a note, I'm talking strictly 10M and have no experience with 25m

  6. #26
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    You realize that an increase of ~22% of DS even with ~22% increase of SoB Charges does not offset the defense of 100% more Blood Shield, right?

    Quick guesstimate: I'd say overall you lose about ~30-40% of your "active mitigation" by going heavily for haste instead of mastery.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    You realize that an increase of ~22% of DS even with ~22% increase of SoB Charges does not offset the defense of 100% more Blood Shield, right?

    Quick guesstimate: I'd say overall you lose about ~30-40% of your "active mitigation" by going heavily for haste instead of mastery.
    I'm looking at my logs and from what I am seeing I take less damage, heal more, and do more damage going with the haste build. Unfortunately I've only got one week of haste to compare against my old mastery build.

  8. #28
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    You realize that an increase of ~22% of DS even with ~22% increase of SoB Charges does not offset the defense of 100% more Blood Shield, right?

    Quick guesstimate: I'd say overall you lose about ~30-40% of your "active mitigation" by going heavily for haste instead of mastery.

    It's probably less of a survivability loss when you take into consideration shorter fight lengths, or even just shorter burst periods, because of higher cooldown uptime. Megaera is a good example, the extra DPS can be enough that you get 1 less breath which far outweighs the physical damage survivability that mastery gives you.

  9. #29
    If I'm not mistaken, there's two schools of thought with Blood DK:

    1 - Super shield, can't be hit (go mastery)
    2 - Too fast for you, can't be hit (Get your dodge/parry at the right ration, and then haste)

    The first idea is get your blood shield to be as beefy as possible. I found this to be more erratic, because you'll be having spikes in your health until you can get the next DS off, but with a competent healer, you'll be fine.

    The second school of thought has a smaller shield, but allows for more frequent DS to keep your shield up. It's less spiky, but you also get less Vengeance.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, there's two schools of thought with Blood DK:

    1 - Super shield, can't be hit (go mastery)
    2 - Too fast for you, can't be hit (Get your dodge/parry at the right ration, and then haste)

    The first idea is get your blood shield to be as beefy as possible. I found this to be more erratic, because you'll be having spikes in your health until you can get the next DS off, but with a competent healer, you'll be fine.

    The second school of thought has a smaller shield, but allows for more frequent DS to keep your shield up. It's less spiky, but you also get less Vengeance.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
    With the haste school of thought parry/dodge levels arent considered if anything those stats are targeted for reforging and you would also get the same amount of vengeance

    My reforging priority is Hit/Exp to 7.5 > Haste = Mastery > Parry > Dodge
    Last edited by JGWentworth; 2013-06-18 at 04:51 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    You realize that an increase of ~22% of DS even with ~22% increase of SoB Charges does not offset the defense of 100% more Blood Shield, right?

    Quick guesstimate: I'd say overall you lose about ~30-40% of your "active mitigation" by going heavily for haste instead of mastery.
    The best HPS, is DPS

    But yeah you're right and I wasn't trying to say haste gives more defense then mastery. I love my current setup because I can easily flip the stats. Last week when my team did heroic Jin'rok I moved 3k haste into mastery for some extra defense. My main argument is against parry/dodge. They are terrible stats that create spike healing and the diminishing return is awful.

  12. #32
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboyslol View Post
    I'm looking at my logs and from what I am seeing I take less damage, heal more, and do more damage going with the haste build. Unfortunately I've only got one week of haste to compare against my old mastery build.
    And your raid DpS is the same? Your gear other than the haste/mastery switcheroo is the same? Your healers are the same? The absorption shield from healers are the same? The raid cooldown usage as the same? Less damage taken isn't the only thing you need to look at when comparing things.

    Unless you can provide the same setting the numbers are influenced by too many variables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    It's probably less of a survivability loss when you take into consideration shorter fight lengths, or even just shorter burst periods, because of higher cooldown uptime. Megaera is a good example, the extra DPS can be enough that you get 1 less breath which far outweighs the physical damage survivability that mastery gives you.
    Anecdotal evidence like the Megaera example isn' really feasible. If for some reason (one of your DpS slacks, you get a bad crit streak, you slack, your top dps needs to run instead of DpS etc.) you don't get the head dead fast enough, the drawback is even greater than with a mastery setup.

    I stand by what I said, there is a noticable loss of defense accompanied by a noticable DpS boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifebind View Post
    The best HPS, is DPS

    But yeah you're right and I wasn't trying to say haste gives more defense then mastery. I love my current setup because I can easily flip the stats. Last week when my team did heroic Jin'rok I moved 3k haste into mastery for some extra defense. My main argument is against parry/dodge. They are terrible stats that create spike healing and the diminishing return is awful.
    Don't get me wrong, I know it's enjoyable to play as long as your healers can make do with it.

    Parry/Dodge are fantastic stats, they are just way worse than the other alternatives. A shame that Blizzard decided to kill them. Most fun I ever had tanking was with 80%+ avoidance and 60% bone shields in tier 7 raids... *feels old now*

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    And your raid DpS is the same? Your gear other than the haste/mastery switcheroo is the same? Your healers are the same? The absorption shield from healers are the same? The raid cooldown usage as the same? Less damage taken isn't the only thing you need to look at when comparing things.

    Unless you can provide the same setting the numbers are influenced by too many variables.
    Couldn't that be said for any argument?

    Anecdotal evidence like the Megaera example isn' really feasible. If for some reason (one of your DpS slacks, you get a bad crit streak, you slack, your top dps needs to run instead of DpS etc.) you don't get the head dead fast enough, the drawback is even greater than with a mastery setup.

    I stand by what I said, there is a noticable loss of defense accompanied by a noticable DpS boost.
    There is a noticeable loss if you play it wrong but that kind of goes with anything in this game.

    You pulled some percentages out of a hat and ran with it as an argument. Nothing is recreatable from week to week all I can offer is that the two weeks I compared the kill times were the same.

  14. #34
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Anecdotal evidence like the Megaera example isn' really feasible. If for some reason (one of your DpS slacks, you get a bad crit streak, you slack, your top dps needs to run instead of DpS etc.) you don't get the head dead fast enough, the drawback is even greater than with a mastery setup.

    I stand by what I said, there is a noticable loss of defense accompanied by a noticable DpS boost.

    It isn't anecdotal evidence at all, if you get 2 breaths using a DPS build and 3 breaths using a defensive build then you could get 3 breaths using a DPS build and 4 breaths using a defensive build due to RNG. My main point in regards to Megaera is that the majority of the damage that you take is magical and this only increases with the number of breaths you take. Just looking at our last Megaera kill, using a purely offensive build, meaning full crit with fairly minimal haste, only 34% of the damage I took was from physical attacks.

    Mastery provides zero defense against magical damage whereas haste provides more healing from Death Strike. The combination of better magical defense and shorter fight duration that a haste build provides outweighs the survivability loss of not stacking haste purely because of better cooldown uptime and higher DS healing. What is more useful to you, less physical damage taken even though physical damage is not the concern or better ability to heal yourself during magical spike damage?

    The discussion is a little pointless though as which stats are most viable is highly situational and it will vary from person to person and guild to guild. I guess what I'm trying to say is that using a DPS build can in some circumstances increase your survivability over the defensive stats like mastery/dodge/parry.
    Last edited by Auk; 2013-06-18 at 09:44 PM.

  15. #35
    As long as you take any amount of physical damage mastery is useful - especially on a boss like megaera where you can get a very high Bone Shield uptime which requires you have a decent amount of mastery.

    Point is - you need some amount of damage mitigation to survive the harder hitting bosses so unless you outgear the content a lot (as in 530+) you will get destroyed if you drop to something as low as 100% mastery.
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  16. #36
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    As long as you take any amount of physical damage mastery is useful - especially on a boss like megaera where you can get a very high Bone Shield uptime which requires you have a decent amount of mastery.

    How exactly does that work on a fight with constant magic damage? Am I just being dense and missing something blatantly obvious?



    The time between breath ticks is long enough to eat multiple charges and if you're only taking 2 breaths the time between rampages doesn't exactly provide very high uptime either.

  17. #37
    Well it will obviously fall off in the rampage phase, but you can keep it up for as long as the heads are active
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