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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    No matter how much you want to see him redeemed, his Corrupted model seems to indicate he is finished.
    what is there to "redeem"? everything he's done to tick everyone off has been of his own free will. his invasions into alliance territory and use of dangerous effects such as enslaving elementals and the manabomb were his choice (you made a ton of threads saying orcs are scum and should be kicked off azeroth BECAUSE of those things if I recall, that and put into internment camps again...amazing how you choose to side in favor of whatever is most controversial). there is nothing of garrosh to redeem and I don't even consider him a worthwhile villain, he is more akin to a corrupt politician than an actual force of evil. his views are warped to believe all of what he does is right and good and that all of his enemies are the evil ones (in my opinion a good villain should be competent and face choices that even they may have to admit are disturbing from a moral perspective but must be taken to achieve their goal) garrosh is as I've stated before a child who has received too much power and a one sided view of history...but people will still praise him because he's a catalyst for the story and a source of drama and conflict. there will be the ones who think he's amazing because he focuses everything on fighting alliance, there will be those who think he is cool because of his aggressive nature, they can go on with that but I see nothing in the character worthy of praise or redemption.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    bit weak that he has been "corrupted" by a sha of pride. i'd rather we fought him on his own terms. why does there always have to be a "greater bad"
    Thing about Sha is, they don't create, they magnify. Garrosh's fatal flaw has always been him being blinded by pride after Thrall pulled him out of his depression, making him a prime candidate for Sha infestation.

    Worse, that same flaw is what drove him to take an Old God's heart and chain it up in Orgrimmar, where he eventually empowers himself with it in the last phase of the fight.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  3. #203
    no, he needed to die in warcraft III

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by razorfire View Post
    what is there to "redeem"? everything he's done to tick everyone off has been of his own free will.
    That's how redemption works. Making up for your wrong decisions and actions. If you get possessed/insane by someone else without it being your fault, and manage to come back, then there is nothing to atone for really, as it was not your fault for anything that happened. So Garrosh, exactly because he did almost everything willingly, has a lot to atone for. Pretty much the most in World of WarCraft's lore. For most other characters the obligation to redeem themselves is just miguided guilt. Trying to cope with something beyond themselves that interacted with them and used them to do evil. At most their only fault has been being at the wrong place at the wrong time, doing a mistake that anyone could do; them just being the unlucky perpetrators more than anything else. Garrosh's theoretical redemption may be the only true redemption ever if it comes to pass, since Arthas and Illidan seem to have missed their chance, at least for now.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-06-15 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithien View Post
    That's how redemption works. Making up for your wrong decisions and actions. If you get possessed/insane by someone else without it being your fault, and manage to come back, then there is nothing to atone for really, as it was not your fault for anything that happened. So Garrosh, exactly because he did almost everything willingly, has a lot to atone for. Pretty much the most in World of WarCraft's lore. For most other characters the obligation to redeem themselves is just miguided guilt. Trying to cope with something beyond themselves that interacted with them and used them to do evil. At most their only fault has been being at the wrong place at the wrong time, doing a mistkae that anyone could do; them just being the unlucky perpetrators more than anything else. Garrosh's theoretical redemption may be the only true redemption ever if it comes to pass, since Arthas and Illidan seem to have missed their chance, until for now.
    that's the thing, EVERYONE wants him dead, how can he redeem himself of that within a single raid fight. people keep saying things like "he can show he was preparing the horde for a legion invasion" but how the heck does he know about it and tell no one? how does he convince an entire alliance and horde army that is there specifically to kill him that "no it's ok guys I'll do better" that takes time and isn't the kind of thing blizz DOES in redemption stories, not trying to mock their writers but their idea of redemption is saying someone corrupted but it's gone now so they're ok. the time for redemption from a long series of assaults against everyone isn't right when their army has a sword to your throat it's before they get that army together to attack you in the first place because people will often say anything to keep their lives.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorfire View Post
    what is there to "redeem"? everything he's done to tick everyone off has been of his own free will. his invasions into alliance territory and use of dangerous effects such as enslaving elementals and the manabomb were his choice (you made a ton of threads saying orcs are scum and should be kicked off azeroth BECAUSE of those things if I recall, that and put into internment camps again...amazing how you choose to side in favor of whatever is most controversial). there is nothing of garrosh to redeem and I don't even consider him a worthwhile villain, he is more akin to a corrupt politician than an actual force of evil. his views are warped to believe all of what he does is right and good and that all of his enemies are the evil ones (in my opinion a good villain should be competent and face choices that even they may have to admit are disturbing from a moral perspective but must be taken to achieve their goal) garrosh is as I've stated before a child who has received too much power and a one sided view of history...but people will still praise him because he's a catalyst for the story and a source of drama and conflict. there will be the ones who think he's amazing because he focuses everything on fighting alliance, there will be those who think he is cool because of his aggressive nature, they can go on with that but I see nothing in the character worthy of praise or redemption.
    This is pretty much problem with garrosh. There is literally nothing no redeem. Nothing good. Garrosh is perhaps the most unrealistic character wow writers ever committed (and given how many bad characters there are in wow it is achievment on its own). He simply is far too inhumane to be beliveable at this point. His actions make no logical sense, his perception is completely messed up. Blizzard tried to make garrosh hateable so hard, they made him more evil than anything we saw. I think we agree, that garrosh makes sargeras and KJ look like children in sandbox, they are not even close to his levels of evil. Im suprised he (yet) didnt forced female to commit abortion (with zaela its still possible) and ate a kitten (again still possible - i would not be suprised if garrosh could eat our companion pets).

    The issue with garrosh is that he looks more than parody (poor one) of villain rather than well written antagonist. Its situation where anything will be better than cheesy and boring ending SOO will have.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by razorfire View Post
    that's the thing, EVERYONE wants him dead, how can he redeem himself of that within a single raid fight. people keep saying things like "he can show he was preparing the horde for a legion invasion" but how the heck does he know about it and tell no one? how does he convince an entire alliance and horde army that is there specifically to kill him that "no it's ok guys I'll do better" that takes time and isn't the kind of thing blizz DOES in redemption stories, not trying to mock their writers but their idea of redemption is saying someone corrupted but it's gone now so they're ok. the time for redemption from a long series of assaults against everyone isn't right when their army has a sword to your throat it's before they get that army together to attack you in the first place because people will often say anything to keep their lives.
    I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that he would be right in the end, just going for it the wrong way. Redemption for Garrosh would be for him to realise that though he started with a noble cause in mind, in the way he used wrong methods to achieve his goals, and even ended up losing sight of what he wanted to do in the first place. Step down as Warchied, willingly, not merely because he was beaten, and put himself in exile on his own, without any need for anyone to condemn him. The only issue in this matter would be how he would stay alive long enough to be able to do that. There is after all a line of people that want to see him dead. Maybe Thrall could intervene. Or Garrosh could be swept away by his allies at the last moment. Redemption would come when he would choose, after his defeat, to try and atone for his mistakes, even in spite of the very people he is trying to help, hating him. A long and hard way towards humbleness and enlightment. Where he is honestly trying to learn the ways of the world, instead of trying to set things right through war and might.

    I am not saying this is going to happen. But I am not without hope either. After all Blizzard's writing in Mists has improved quite a lot. The complexity they tried to instill in the storyline, the shades of grey in characters, the rampant destruction that actually occurs despite our efforts to the contrary, the absence of armour for quite a few characters, etc all are nice steps towards better story-telling in their part. Not quite amazing, yet, but still a notable improvement.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by K-b View Post
    I think it's sad to let a really important lore character take a dramatic change in personality just to satisfy some base of the community.

    Post Cataclysm;-

    The character came from a popular family background, shares traits with his father and the pride of his legacy. Rash, young and proud. Yet despite this, at least throughout the course of cataclysm, he represented a great becon for the war machine to advance. And it did, numerous successes the Horde gained in the wake of the cataclysm is not denied by anyone, and Garrosh takes the credit. He made the war machine prosper to such a degree, since the peak of the second war.

    Forced upon him, the hate of a Troll who's "nation" was nearly wiped out by fish creatures, when in fact the truth was, the Trolls were downright useless for the past two expansions. "Now that we've assembled an 80 man raid and called for a world event, we just might get back that island over there that no one gives a half a crap about"

    Forced upon him, the hate of the Taurne, who's august leader jumped into a ridiculous conclusion of Garrosh's involvement in an ambush, humiliated him, and challanged him on a fight to the death. Yet Garrosh is plunged into a sea of whiners who call him a murderer when he had nothing to do with the poisoned axe, effectively denouncing Magatha's requests to aid her in the capture of Thunder Bluff and calling her an enemy.

    Forced upon him, the hate of the Grand Alliance, which is undeniably well earned. A pure horde-alliance conflict, with a leader who despised them to the core, taking advantage of the cataclysm and shifting the balance of power to the highest of it's capabilities. Its sad the horde players ignore this part of success about Garrosh. A guy that hates the blue flag.


    Post Cataclysm. This character, despite being mildly incompetent and rash, had done a hell of a good job in the battlefield, and in a war full of conflict and hate, a good leader like that was needed, just as Thrall had said so, that the horde needed a true leader, and Garrosh carried that charisma in him. Even if he was rash and proud, attempts were seen on the extent of his ability to learn and appreciate (Stonetalon QL, Saurfang Speech, the high cheif's mercy)


    Now here's the onion.

    "Yea, well, I do suppose we started Garrosh with an unrecoverable negetive effect that the idiotic community can't see past through, so lets just scarp it off"

    And then BAM. Destroys a level 35 quest zone, writes a book about it, uses dark shamans, executes trolls, becomes a hundred times more wroth, power hungry, moronic. Jumps into old god involvement, evil, savage, and commands the Horde as if it was his personal toy

    "Woah, Woah, just what the $%^# happened?"


    I still find if amazing about this sudden change in personality. I mean, how the hell did a character jump to such a gigantic leap in his personality is beyond me. It may have been foreshadowed, but there were simply too much directions that pointed Garrosh into having a good side.

    After all hes done in MoP, no shit. This character should simply die, yet even till now I never feel the hate he should be deserving. Why? I almost feel like it isnt his fault. Like some puppet strings just got a hold of him and did all the work. This leap of personality changed everything about him, whatever he deserves just doesn't feel, "valid".


    In my perspective view on him post-cata, Garrosh was anything but a monster. He WAS undeniably honorable, there is simply no debate to this, the guy never did anything without caring for his people, the Ashenvale Invasion being to stop the starvation of his people.

    He was Not power hungry, he was not Weak, he was most certainly not a Moron, the prime characteristics a leader should avoid having.

    It was just this MASSIVE CHANGE that took rampart when the mists came that changed everything about him.

    So yea, I can't hate him. I simply can't imagine a character like that, who had such good potential, to just CHANGE with nothing to back it up. Could we at least get some sort of hint of what happened? Did this Malakarokk Character come and change things, or did he just get spawned from Blizzard's console engine. Was he controlled, some hint or idea of what or who controlled him?

    "Oh yea, well there's this shit called the Sha of Pride, yea that'l have a nice ring to it"


    Just Ridiculous.
    Been a regular visitor to this site for the past 7 years and never saw the need to register and contribute till I read this amazing post. Completely and fully agree with your post there. I've played this game and only this game since early TBC in 2007 and always admired how well-written the story was. I must add that I have always been horde and only played one character(a warlock, can't post a link to his armory but he's called Impaler on the Realm Ragnaros-EU) all the way with zero alts, not even a low level twink.

    Sadly yet finally, the story with Garrosh finally puts me off the game. I don't like the fact that the Alliance will raid orgrimmar to "free/help" the horde from a poorly directed character which brought the horde some much needed excitement and honor. It looks to me that Blizzard ran out of ideas and are merely depicting real life protesting within their own game to send out a message to the many 13-15 year old people infesting the game. People, I must add, that will go through the entire expansion without knowing what happened or why it happened, pretty much the way they do their own lives. It looks like the game is pretty much directed towards an obvious end, after the the horde/alliance conflict ends they would most likely introduce Sargeras with an obvious need for both factions to unite(and possibly literally group up and communicate) to put an end to the "very last" and epic threat.

    As much as I like the Burning Legion and their story, surely the approach to put an end to them will be as pathetic as the Alliance/Horde conflict. Garrosh was pretty much my last(after Illidan) and favorite character in-game, the reason he's my favorite is his full and perfect representation of the faction I always liked best. Especially being the last Hellscream, his death(which I hope won't be the case but highly unlikely to satisfy the ocean of simpletons infesting the game) pretty much kills the only interesting factor(Alliance vs Horde) within the game to me.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 12:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenzooom View Post
    He is a total jerk, he deserves his death.
    Ahaha, no surprise you're belf.
    Last edited by ImpalerEU; 2013-06-16 at 01:04 AM. Reason: Breaking down to three paragraphs.

  9. #209
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    He tried to assassinate us along with Vol'Jin how could anyone be sad about it?
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark Son View Post
    I'm still annoyed how they decided to make him a bad guy.
    This. I was warming up to him, and in Tides of War they just decided to f*** up his personality because of the crybaby Thrall lovers I guess.

    I don't like Thrall, but I hate even more what they did to Garrosh. =/

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    No matter how much you want to see him redeemed, his Corrupted model seems to indicate he is finished.
    "Seems" is a small word with big meaning. Until either Blizzard says directly "yeah, Garrosh dies" or the first raided info comes back saying "we killed him", then any speculation is just guesswork.
    I can't help but feel my "epic" experience being diminished when I wage battle against mighty Ordos and 10 people in the raid do nothing but /jump and /fart ...
    -- Strych, 90 Orc Warrior, Tarren Mill EU

  12. #212
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    I've really got to say this, Why are So Many of you incapable of writing posts with without breaking up paragraphs?! Its a freaking headache to read any of this in the blocks of text posted.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyprime View Post
    Absolutely not. The Horde deserve much better than this.
    Like what?, Horde/Alliance love? Garrosh is what the game itself is supposed to be about. Horde and Alliance hating one another.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 01:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I've really got to say this, Why are So Many of you incapable of writing posts with without breaking up paragraphs?! Its a freaking headache to read any of this in the blocks of text posted.
    Not sure if I'm one of the rest directed to, but I broke down mine to three.

  14. #214
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImpalerEU View Post
    Not sure if I'm one of the rest directed to, but I broke down mine to three.
    thank you, I honestly appreciate that.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    thank you, I honestly appreciate that.
    My pleasure.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    No matter how much you want to see him redeemed, his Corrupted model seems to indicate he is finished.
    Implying you find it sad? The fact that you have said that you wanted to literally slaughter all the Orcs, or send them all back to Draenor where it would literally be impossible to support themselves with the resources there?

    Really? Of all people, Salandrin finds it sad that Garrosh is going to die, when you have wished death to him multiple times, but not only to him, but all Orcs? You are sad that, in your words, the blood hungry, war mongering, crazy Orc is going to die?
    Troll's Life Mon.
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  17. #217
    He is a total jerk, he deserves his death. [2]

  18. #218
    Not really. His character was butchered a year ago. Taking his epicz is just a formality.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  19. #219
    Stood in the Fire therealbowser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    bit weak that he has been "corrupted" by a sha of pride. i'd rather we fought him on his own terms. why does there always have to be a "greater bad"
    Because Garrosh by himself is just an orc. He is not more powerful than 25 champions of the Alliance or Horde alongside heroes fighting him. However, he is more than a match with his new weapon, which he himself chooses to try and defeat us as a last ditch effort. He is corrupted in the end, but only in the end. Every choice he has made has been his own, even his final one, his foolish pride thinking that he can control the power of Y'Saarj.

  20. #220
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    Nah, he's a fictional character from a computer game and not a real person.

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