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  1. #261
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    They had too much of Garrosh being honourable in Cata (the stonetalon event, callling out Sylvanas) for me to believe he was planned to go down that route at the time.
    The Stonetalon event didn't show Garrosh's honour, just shown that he wasn't an utter monster after all. He's not the type of character that goes to kill for the sake of killing, he wasn't and still isn't, having all his own interpretation of what an "honourable" and "glorious" battle is. Garrosh belives in a very twisted, messed up version of "honour", one that constantly adapt to the situation. Garrosh proved many times that victory is far more important than anything else for him.

    About Sylvanas, I don't really see where this "honour" is. He just kept an eye on a potential enemy, since he didn't trust her, nor the whole of the Forsaken. The reason for which the blight was almost banned is because of the events occured on the Wrathgate, not really for questions of "honourable combat".

    In Edge of Night he planned to use the Forsaken soldiers as easily-expandable meat-shields, because of their unnatural resilience, so that his awesome orcish soldiers would have been all rested and full of energies for the final, and FAR safer, assault. I don't know where is the "honour" in this and which kind of relevant meaning has bitching about the plague behind the excuse of the "honorable combat" when you're ready to treat your own troops in such a way.

    Ofcourse, if we're talking about the practical, tactical angle of the matter, exploiting the Forsaken in that way was pretty smart. But so it was the whole plan for obliterate Theramore and isolate the Night Elves from the rest of the Alliance. But that's just prove my point repeadetly: Garrosh values victory above all else, and every mean justify that end.

    I expect they were trying to strike a balance but ended up making him still seem like a douchebag so in Mists they went full out.
    There has never been any slight of balance, the stuff putting Garrosh in a very suspicious/ambigous light heavily beat the rest. If anything, suddenly turning Garrosh in a somehow positive character, after all the stuff transpired between game, novels and short-stories, would have been incredbly far-fetched.
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  2. #262
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    The Stonetalon event didn't show Garrosh's honour, just shown that he wasn't an utter monster after all. He's not the type of character that goes to kill for the sake of killing, he wasn't and still isn't, having all his own interpretation of what an "honourable" and "glorious" battle is. Garrosh belives in a very twisted, messed up version of "honour", one that constantly adapt to the situation. Garrosh proved many times that victory is far more important than anything else for him.
    "one that constantly adapt to the situation" is synonymous with "inconsistent" or "bad writing".

    In Edge of Night he planned to use the Forsaken soldiers as easily-expandable meat-shields, because of their unnatural resilience, so that his awesome orcish soldiers would have been all rested and full of energies for the final, and FAR safer, assault. I don't know where is the "honour" in this and which kind of relevant meaning has bitching about the plague behind the excuse of the "honorable combat" when you're ready to treat your own troops in such a way.
    You mean the alliance use the worgen? Using specialized elite forces as the vanguard of an attack is not evil or anything like that, it's strategic. I don't see why only garrosh is getting flak for it when almost every experienced military leader in warcraft (and outside) has done it


    There has never been any slight of balance, the stuff putting Garrosh in a very suspicious/ambigous light heavily beat the rest. If anything, suddenly turning Garrosh in a somehow positive character, after all the stuff transpired between game, novels and short-stories, would have been incredbly far-fetched.
    Except noone said he had to be a 'somehow positive character' (in your eyes), they just had to have him maintain orcish honor and actually lead the horde as a whole. There is nothing wrong with weighing people in the horde based on their combat prowess, when you create an orc at the beginning of the game this is what the cinematic told you being an orc was about. Under Thralls horde no less.

    I really wish I had that comment they made about pushing garrosh's death an expansion early bookmarked, to prove it wasn't all planned to begin with easily and stop people trying to defend this nonsense.

    OT: I'm not sad he died. Better to get rid of him than to bounce him back and forth different personas trying to appease the fanbase. Characters shouldn't be meta, they should just be their written character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  3. #263
    I don't want him to die
    Right...wrong...The universe doesn't care
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  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Strafer View Post
    He and his father will be back in the next expansion.

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    Someone give this guy a cookie.

    Predictions.

  5. #265
    Not in the slightest. The problem with to many mediums is that people do not die. This goes for TV, books, movies, and games. If everyone sticks around till they're so old they die of old age it really takes away the feeling that the world is dangerous or impactful. Comic books (mostly DC and Marvel) suffer from this since they don't want to upset the fans. But really if someone can be shot in the face 10 times and come back in a few issues doesn't it diminish the story? Like what was the point. That's how I feel about Garrosh. His death is a continuation of the story and gives meaning to what came before.

  6. #266
    Well I'll be glad to be rid of him, but really the worst fate he could endure is to live the rest of his life in a prison somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark Son View Post
    I'm still annoyed how they decided to make him a bad guy.
    I just wish they'd made up their mind on that earlier, his lore up to Cata is inconsistent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ickabob View Post
    I still don't understand Blizzard's logic with building him up to be a semi respectable leader in Cata, only to see him go down such a dark path.
    Emphasis on the "semi" lol. Best I can say of him in Twi Hi is that he's a reckless aggressive jackass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    They had too much of Garrosh being honourable in Cata (the stonetalon event, callling out Sylvanas)
    Calling Sylvanas a bitch is not evidence of honour. Also in the context of the Silverpine questing he's actually a villain. Considering you're a loyal servant of Sylvanas there. A lot of the subtext of the zone and Shadowfang Keep is the Forsaken chafing under the restraints Garrosh imposes on them and resenting him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    The Stonetalon event didn't show Garrosh's honour, just shown that he wasn't an utter monster after all. He's not the type of character that goes to kill for the sake of killing, he wasn't and still isn't, having all his own interpretation of what an "honourable" and "glorious" battle is. Garrosh belives in a very twisted, messed up version of "honour", one that constantly adapt to the situation. Garrosh proved many times that victory is far more important than anything else for him.
    IMO his level of honor shown in Stonetalon is inconsistent with some of his later atrocities.
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  7. #267
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Nah, his fate was sealed in "War Crimes". He's now just a generic villain who does evil shit for the sake of evilness. He no longer has personality or purpose of his own, his sole function is being an antagonist and standing in the way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Nah, his fate was sealed in "War Crimes". He's now just a generic villain who does evil shit for the sake of evilness. He no longer has personality or purpose of his own, his sole function is being an antagonist and standing in the way.
    I'm not a fan of those type of villains. I like the complex villain, Rual Menendez for example is a villain who you can sympathize, since he has a good reason to be pissed off at the US.

  9. #269
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickabob View Post
    I still don't understand Blizzard's logic with building him up to be a semi respectable leader in Cata, only to see him go down such a dark path.
    They had to build up new characters for expansions and his story arc covered 1-60 Cata storyline, and Highlands, the entirety of MoP, and now Warlords.

    As it is right now depending on how WoD turns out Garrosh is either going to die a horrible death from someone in the past or he is going to hit Super Villan status. Hes getting extremely close.

  10. #270
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    "one that constantly adapt to the situation" is synonymous with "inconsistent" or "bad writing".
    You don't even know what a good writing is then, nor you have the slighest idea what make a character well or bad written.

    A person adapt to the situation because he understands that by upoholding certain things he wouldn't achieve what he has in mind, and you're going to understand that everytime only when the harsh reality of things put you in that situation. Talking of fantasies and good things before that moment is stuff for everyone, but when you face reality and the responsibility of your success/failure fall entirely on your shoulders, you're forced to consider the reality of things in the most pragmatic way, unless you don't decide to give up your goals...and that's something Garrosh wasn't going to do.

    You mean the alliance use the worgen? Using specialized elite forces as the vanguard of an attack is not evil or anything like that, it's strategic. I don't see why only garrosh is getting flak for it when almost every experienced military leader in warcraft (and outside) has done it
    Don't try to defend an indefensible character if you're even unable to do it properly. If you went so far to use the Worgen/Alliance comparison for justify Garrosh means that you have no fucking idea of what you're trying to talk about.

    Garrosh decided to use the Forsaken as meat-shields, he didn't plan to send them to fight, he planned to send them to die in crowds, just because they were able to survive longer than the rest of the "living" soldiers, so they were perfect for break the deadly and fortified Gilnean's defenses. This is what he had in mind, still didn't actually happened only because Sylvanas stopped him in time.

    Just for make it very clear to you how "honourable" was Garrosh's tactic, if the Forsaken would have been used in that way, the losses they would have suffered would have been so fucking huge that the Alliance, led by Varian himself, would have been able to break through Lordaeron, conquer Capital City and submitting/putting down the Forsaken. As if this wasn't enough, they wouldn't have been able to sustain the Bulwark's defenses anymore, and the Scourge would have washed through Tirisfal aswell. And Garrosh was going to give a fuck about all of this? Obviously not.

    It's this enough to you or you have to add some nonsense of yours?

    Except noone said he had to be a 'somehow positive character' (in your eyes), they just had to have him maintain orcish honor and actually lead the horde as a whole.
    Yours is a fan's wish, and stories shouldn't be wrote just for please fans. "Maintain orcish honor" means nothing. Garrosh stated in his early days that the Horde should have claimed the whole of Kalimdor, and in other 2 occasions (one in Wolfheart and the other in-game, during the Twilight's Highlands event) that the Horde should dominate and "unite" Azeroth under its banner, that his Horde should rule it as its "masters". Garrosh's intentions were clear from the beginning, and with more power in hand his ambitions became exponentially greater.

    And you honestly think that someone with such ambitious goals will uphold "da good honour" all the time? Especially since Garrosh and Thrall had, respectively, very different interpretations of the word's meaning from the beginning. In Tides of War he didn't blow up Theramore to nothingness for "MUHAHAHAHA EVILNESS", he did it because it was part of a plan for kicking away the Night Elves from Kalimdor, in other words, using another way to achieve the same thing that he tried to achieve in Wolfheart and Cataclysm but miserably failed to do so.

    It's also a mystery how Garrosh was supposed to keep "united" the Horde since he had very biased, low opinions of almost every race composing it. The only race for which he never had a strong bias is the Tauren one, but Garrosh "solved" the thing by unwillingly playing the pawn in their leader's murder. GG

    There is nothing wrong with weighing people in the horde based on their combat prowess, when you create an orc at the beginning of the game this is what the cinematic told you being an orc was about. Under Thralls horde no less.
    And when excatly I complained about this? Combat prowess is always an important factor, especially in the Horde and especially for the orcs, but is not and cannot be the only factor, not when you lead a diverse and multi-racial organization like the nowdays Horde.
    Thrall chose Garrosh for a lot of apparently understandable reasons, but fundamentally guided by sentimentalism and stubborness, since there were guys like Cairne (one that witnessed Garrosh's best and worst side) that strongly advised him that putting Garrosh in such a position so early was a freaking bad idea. But Thrall said "naw" and left for do his world-savior stuff.

    I really wish I had that comment they made about pushing garrosh's death an expansion early bookmarked, to prove it wasn't all planned to begin with easily and stop people trying to defend this nonsense.
    You're dishonestly abusing a statement that had a very different meaning from the one you're pretending it is. This is nothing but a whim of someone unable to bear those nasty guys like me bursting your deluded bubble. You're going to prove no point with laughable statements like these.

    Sorry to say that but you'll need something more than your offended, butthurt garrosh fanboism for decently argue with me. Just sayin'.

    OT: I'm not sad he died. Better to get rid of him than to bounce him back and forth different personas trying to appease the fanbase. Characters shouldn't be meta, they should just be their written character.
    Quite ironic, since you're acting excatly like one of those fans who want to be "appeased". Except that you haven't been "appeased", talking to how the character should have stayed true to his estabilshed "written character", clearly one of your imagination, since you do so without the sufficient knowledge for judge and understand that character in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Calling Sylvanas a bitch is not evidence of honour. Also in the context of the Silverpine questing he's actually a villain. Considering you're a loyal servant of Sylvanas there. A lot of the subtext of the zone and Shadowfang Keep is the Forsaken chafing under the restraints Garrosh imposes on them and resenting him.
    Protar has a very fixed opinion of Sylvanas, so bitchslapping her surely sounds as something heroic and honourable to him lol

    IMO his level of honor shown in Stonetalon is inconsistent with some of his later atrocities.
    That bomb that fell upon the druid scholars was initially planned to be thrown on the Alliance outpost. Which is the difference with Theramore? That the bomb was smaller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Nah, his fate was sealed in "War Crimes". He's now just a generic villain who does evil shit for the sake of evilness. He no longer has personality or purpose of his own, his sole function is being an antagonist and standing in the way.
    Since Garrosh is now forsaken, shunned and hated by everyone, the risk that he's running to a "Lich King stage" is pretty huge. And we know which kind of villain Arthas became in WotLK.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2014-04-28 at 03:38 AM.
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  11. #271
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Since Garrosh is now forsaken, shunned and hated by everyone, the risk that he's running to a "Lich King stage" is pretty huge. And we know which kind of villain Arthas became in WotLK.
    The first prize still goes to Azmodan from Diablo 3, "the best battlefield commander of all demons". We beat his troops, his siege engines, his top lieutenants, his mistress, but he keeps on saying pathetic speeches about how it's all futile and how we will lose. Then we shove it up his ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  12. #272
    Herald of the Titans Haidaes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    The first prize still goes to Azmodan from Diablo 3, "the best battlefield commander of all demons". We beat his troops, his siege engines, his top lieutenants, his mistress, but he keeps on saying pathetic speeches about how it's all futile and how we will lose. Then we shove it up his ass.
    Azmodan is a strange beast tbh, his whole character design doesn't exactly scream "master strategist" to me, as he looks more like a demonic bureaucrat, who's gotten so fat because he does nothing all day long, that he can hardly move. That would have sit better with Bacchus kind of god/demon with emphasis on sloth or lust.

  13. #273
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    The first prize still goes to Azmodan from Diablo 3, "the best battlefield commander of all demons". We beat his troops, his siege engines, his top lieutenants, his mistress, but he keeps on saying pathetic speeches about how it's all futile and how we will lose. Then we shove it up his ass.
    The worst thing about Azmodan was that he downright told us what his plans were:
    "Hah, you'll never stop us now that we're infiltrating from under the castle!"
    "These catapults are quite valuable, but you'll never destroy them!"
    If this wasn't typical Blizzard I'd think that Azmodan had intentions on foiling Diablo's plans from within.

  14. #274
    Stood in the Fire Iconja's Avatar
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    About as sad as when that one unspecified character from that one unspecified show who may or may not have been king dying.
    Last edited by Iconja; 2014-04-28 at 08:03 AM.
    ''The man who tells the tale is the one who decides history, he tells it wrong, and you have nothing more than a pretty story, he tells it right, and you have a legacy, you want a story told right, you ask someone who helped make it happen...''

  15. #275
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Azmodan is a strange beast tbh, his whole character design doesn't exactly scream "master strategist" to me, as he looks more like a demonic bureaucrat, who's gotten so fat because he does nothing all day long, that he can hardly move. That would have sit better with Bacchus kind of god/demon with emphasis on sloth or lust.
    Well, he's no fighter, he's the type that sits behind the lines while his armies do the job, kind of fits this. And he is Lord of Sin after all. I guess they decided to give him a "battlefield general" theme because you know, Diablo is all about fighting hordes of demons. Although I would've enjoyed a whole act devoted to debauchery, depravity, sloth, drunkedness, and sex - although the latter would obviously not make it due to age rating. It's odd though, flying gibs, gore and dismemberment are fine, but tits are not...
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfKnees View Post
    The worst thing about Azmodan was that he downright told us what his plans were:
    "Hah, you'll never stop us now that we're infiltrating from under the castle!"
    "These catapults are quite valuable, but you'll never destroy them!"
    If this wasn't typical Blizzard I'd think that Azmodan had intentions on foiling Diablo's plans from within.
    And he doesn't even try to react to the change of situation, being confident that we won't survive against another regiment of his army - right after we show that we're more than capable of doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  16. #276
    Bloodsail Admiral Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfKnees View Post
    The worst thing about Azmodan was that he downright told us what his plans were:
    "Hah, you'll never stop us now that we're infiltrating from under the castle!"
    "These catapults are quite valuable, but you'll never destroy them!"
    If this wasn't typical Blizzard I'd think that Azmodan had intentions on foiling Diablo's plans from within.
    Don't forget about the lord of lies... who completely fails at lying. The entire game is just a disgrace to the diablo franchise.. makes me cringe.
    "I find this rain quite pleasant. It feels as though raindrops are blessing our victory..."

  17. #277
    I think that garrosh won't die in WoD. Instead he will escape to some cool place (like lets say nebula with cool name) with his followers, and use his time/dimensional powers to launch black crusades against azeroth. It will be new holiday event (since people complain that blizzard dont care about updating holidays).

  18. #278
    Herald of the Titans Strafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafer View Post
    He and his father will be back in the next expansion.

    World of Warcraft: Return Of The Hellscreams
    Like a boss.

  19. #279
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Don't forget about the lord of lies... who completely fails at lying. The entire game is just a disgrace to the diablo franchise.. makes me cringe.
    That's what Blizzard has come to. They provide unmatched gameplay, but awful storylines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  20. #280
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Yours is a fan's wish, and stories shouldn't be wrote just for please fans. "Maintain orcish honor" means nothing. Garrosh stated in his early days that the Horde should have claimed the whole of Kalimdor, and in other 2 occasions (one in Wolfheart and the other in-game, during the Twilight's Highlands event) that the Horde should dominate and "unite" Azeroth under its banner, that his Horde should rule it as its "masters". Garrosh's intentions were clear from the beginning, and with more power in hand his ambitions became exponentially greater.
    I'm not a huge fan of garrosh, and Once again you seem to be speaking from an anti-garrosh POV the whole time. What is WRONG with a horde warchief who wants to conquer? The factions are meant to be against eachother. That is the point of the entire MMO.

    And when excatly I complained about this? Combat prowess is always an important factor, especially in the Horde and especially for the orcs, but is not and cannot be the only factor, not when you lead a diverse and multi-racial organization like the nowdays Horde.
    Thrall chose Garrosh for a lot of apparently understandable reasons, but fundamentally guided by sentimentalism and stubborness, since there were guys like Cairne (one that witnessed Garrosh's best and worst side) that strongly advised him that putting Garrosh in such a position so early was a freaking bad idea. But Thrall said "naw" and left for do his world-savior stuff.
    Except it's not the only factor. We saw that goblins who proved themselves useful were held high in Garrosh's horde. We saw how he was very lax with the blood elves until they couldn't do what he expected of them. I don't think garrosh should've been warchief either, but hey if you want to put words in my mouth.

    You're dishonestly abusing a statement that had a very different meaning from the one you're pretending it is. This is nothing but a whim of someone unable to bear those nasty guys like me bursting your deluded bubble. You're going to prove no point with laughable statements like these.

    Sorry to say that but you'll need something more than your offended, butthurt garrosh fanboism for decently argue with me. Just sayin'.
    So you know what quote im talking about it but still refuse to bring actually anything (you wrote fucktons for actually saying nothing but "you're wrong garrosh is a douche" 20 times). How constructive.


    Quite ironic, since you're acting excatly like one of those fans who want to be "appeased". Except that you haven't been "appeased", talking to how the character should have stayed true to his estabilshed "written character", clearly one of your imagination, since you do so without the sufficient knowledge for judge and understand that character in the first place.
    Aaah yes, clearly anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy. Despite you having a dislike of war in warcraft... christ. Should we all have bowed to lothar from day 1 and played happy families? War is what makes this franchise and it was a step in the right direction to attempt to bring the hostility back between factions, that for the most part was solely player maintained previously,

    Overall, you brought nothing constructive except insults, and broke forum rules multiple times. But I'm used to that from anyone around here who blindly defends blizzards portrayal of garrosh over the years
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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