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  1. #1

    Can we have casual gear progression content that isn't a raid?

    All this talk of needing LFR because "possibly it allowed thousands of players to raid who otherwise would have just logged off...." why can't they just make some interesting things for players that is a gear progression path and nothing to do with raids?

    People can't commit to set times, or want to deal with such environment... so create something for them unique instead of just taking existing raids and turning the slider to 1.


    Stuff like Brawler's Guild, could have loot as you went along. More personal class quests. Dungeons that mattered. Adventurer style stuff that got you items if you explored a lot.


    Why is the only solution raiding? There are a ton of MMO games out there now, just go steal some ideas from them. Seems so short sighted from a company that used to have great ideas.
    Last edited by fangless; 2013-06-13 at 08:12 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Why is the only solution raiding? There are a ton of MMO games out there now, just go steal some ideas from them. Seems so short sighted from a company that used to have great ideas.
    Yeah, if only there was some sort of alternative like... a harder version of scenarios... or maybe some zone where you could kill bosses and protect stuff for your faction... or maybe they could add some kind of points that you could get from various sources then go and buy things with....

  3. #3
    None of those are progression paths, but they're all beginning points.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Why is the only solution raiding?
    Two reasons:
    1 - Because raiding content is already being created. It makes great economic sense to use the assets you have, and it frees them the manpower to work on different things. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons there are so many Scenarios out there and few new Dungeons: Scenarios are easier to create than full Dungeons, because their art assets are all reused from the open world.

    2 - Because anything you make available for casuals that gives them gear/rewards, the hardcore crew will find themselves obligated to do. A new progression path that gives people Valor points or LFR-level gear? A lot of people who have no business doing that content will start arguing that's yet another thing they must do to keep their competitive edge. That's happening with LFR already, and that's with LFR taking very little time to do. Imagine if the "casual progression" path required hours to do (even if they can be broken up)? The casuals themselves probably wouldn't mind (hey, gear is gear), but the folks who are super-focused on efficiency would get all up in arms about having to "waste" even more time doing stuff outside of Raids.


    Now, I'm not being completely dismissive of the idea. I'd love to have a separate method of character advancement that wasn't about running LFR, because I personally find raiding in general rather boring (move out of fire, do rotation, repeat ad nauseum). I just haven't heard any good ideas on how to implement it without hitting the two issues I mentioned. Your suggestions are very vague. In this case, the devil is in the details.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  5. #5
    You have the progression in terms of valor grinding. Or investing here and there into crafted stuff, if acquiring gold is your thing. Raid gear is needed for raiding itself, the rest of the game is neutered to the point of not really requiring it to accomplish anything.

    My version of this question is 'why is fighting the only way to progress my character in a meaningful way', but that's a question for the genre in general rather than WoW specifically.
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  6. #6
    challenge modes, arena, rbg and brawlers guild would come to my mind.

  7. #7
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Casual progression outside the frame of raiding has to be balanced against the typically obsessive behavior that expresses itself in the idea that everything that provides any sort of gear seems to become 'mandatory' for many. Valor gear is fine for what it is. Getting reputation to acquire that gear is as easy now as it's ever been in MoP.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You have the progression in terms of valor grinding. Or investing here and there into crafted stuff, if acquiring gold is your thing. Raid gear is needed for raiding itself, the rest of the game is neutered to the point of not really requiring it to accomplish anything.

    My version of this question is 'why is fighting the only way to progress my character in a meaningful way', but that's a question for the genre in general rather than WoW specifically.
    Well, why would you need gear if you're not going to use it anywhere? To get gear, we should be doing something with said gear. There's some LFR bashing regarding how someone can just AFK through it, but most people actually do like watching the big yellow numbers becoming higher as they progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalo View Post
    challenge modes, arena, rbg and brawlers guild would come to my mind.
    Arena and RBGs are PvP activities. RBGs take considerable time to set up (and play, depending on the teams and the map). Challenge modes are basically the opposite of casual content, given you pretty much need a well-coordinated group to get through them. Brawlers' Guild... alright. But raiders would also have the upper hand on that, given they naturally have better gear (and again, would feel mandated to do Brawlers' Guild if it had any gear rewards).
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Two reasons:
    1 - Because raiding content is already being created. It makes great economic sense to use the assets you have, and it frees them the manpower to work on different things. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons there are so many Scenarios out there and few new Dungeons: Scenarios are easier to create than full Dungeons, because their art assets are all reused from the open world.

    2 - Because anything you make available for casuals that gives them gear/rewards, the hardcore crew will find themselves obligated to do. A new progression path that gives people Valor points or LFR-level gear? A lot of people who have no business doing that content will start arguing that's yet another thing they must do to keep their competitive edge. That's happening with LFR already, and that's with LFR taking very little time to do. Imagine if the "casual progression" path required hours to do (even if they can be broken up)? The casuals themselves probably wouldn't mind (hey, gear is gear), but the folks who are super-focused on efficiency would get all up in arms about having to "waste" even more time doing stuff outside of Raids.


    Now, I'm not being completely dismissive of the idea. I'd love to have a separate method of character advancement that wasn't about running LFR, because I personally find raiding in general rather boring (move out of fire, do rotation, repeat ad nauseum). I just haven't heard any good ideas on how to implement it without hitting the two issues I mentioned. Your suggestions are very vague. In this case, the devil is in the details.
    I'm quoting this entire post in the hopes that people read it before posting. It's spot on.

    I'll flesh out one of the points that was touched on implicitly.

    The basic question is: What ilvl is on the gear? If it's lower than LFR (say 496 during t15), then relatively few people will run the content. The only players being served are those who (1) don't want to raid at all, even convenient raids such as LFR/flex but (2) still want some kind of progression. You're one of those people (edit: No, wait, you're 11/13H progressed in T15...so this isn't even for you...), but that seems to be a small minority (for those that I've met).

    If the ilvl is higher or equal to LFR, then see Holtzmann's discussion of progression raiders feeling bitter at being obligated.

    Isn't it ridiculous that adding new content would be a problem? Yet, that's the reality in this case: Blizz risks angering or frustrating a larger portion of the community than the content's target player-base. That doesn't add up, especially if you consider the limited development resources the new content would take to create.
    Last edited by Manhands; 2013-06-13 at 09:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post
    The basic question is: What ilvl is on the gear?
    If another route of progression is to be tied with gear (which isn't the only factor which could be in progression), then it should yield competitive rewards with raiding progression. As someone rightfully noted, LFR, scenarios, VP - they are rather starting points of raid progression. VP is useless without doing LFR, so that leaves us with LFRs and scenarios, both of which drop gear, which is worse than crap, with a chance like 0.0001%.
    If the ilvl is higher or equal to LFR, then see Holtzmann's discussion of progression raiders feeling bitter at being obligated.
    Those are small minority, and there are 2 kinds of progression raiders, ones are those who would die if saw someone else with same gear as him, and there are those progression raiders who would embrace and enjoy new aspects of game. Game would be much better without first kind of those anyway.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Those are small minority, and there are 2 kinds of progression raiders, ones are those who would die if saw someone else with same gear as him, and there are those progression raiders who would embrace and enjoy new aspects of game. Game would be much better without first kind of those anyway.
    Complaints and threats of unsubbing are still complaints and threats of unsubbing. You can see the upheaval within the community (which is made, in its essence, of the minority of players who are vocal about what they think) when a group thinks it's being ignored. Do it deliberately and watch the storm in the teacup threaten to flood the entire coffee table.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Complaints and threats of unsubbing are still complaints and threats of unsubbing. You can see the upheaval within the community (which is made, in its essence, of the minority of players who are vocal about what they think) when a group thinks it's being ignored. Do it deliberately and watch the storm in the teacup threaten to flood the entire coffee table.
    Whatever, they can leave if they can't live with it. As you pointed yourself - it is minority, and a minority of progression raiders (not even progressions raiders themsevles), who play not for the game but for opportunity of being "exclusive". Most of them probably not into raiding themselves, some people who are so vocal on same LFR nowadays, not even playing WoW for quite a time.

    So, it is better if they will be ignored, than the rest of the players.

  13. #13
    Progression aside I do think Blizzard has been hurting themselves by not adding 5 mans and daily areas now. Given the problems are probably more varied than that but a game doesn't lose 4 million subscribers in a year (primarily with casuals judging by their recent remarks) solely because the game is old. 5 mans gave a nice quick rewarding way to gear a character up while with LFR you sit in a queue for almost an hour and leave with nothing most the time and, in the end, WoW's entire end-game is based around gear so when you spend over 6 hours doing 4 LFR wings and have nothing to show for it you aren't pushed to want to do it again after the first couple times.
    Last edited by Mech; 2013-06-13 at 09:33 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    All this talk of needing LFR because "possibly it allowed thousands of players to raid who otherwise would have just logged off...." why can't they just make some interesting things for players that is a gear progression path and nothing to do with raids?

    People can't commit to set times, or want to deal with such environment... so create something for them unique instead of just taking existing raids and turning the slider to 1.


    Stuff like Brawler's Guild, could have loot as you went along. More personal class quests. Dungeons that mattered. Adventurer style stuff that got you items if you explored a lot.


    Why is the only solution raiding? There are a ton of MMO games out there now, just go steal some ideas from them. Seems so short sighted from a company that used to have great ideas.
    I think this is a tricky one.

    Blizzard tried dailies for casuals to slowly unlock gears on their own pace. But a lot of raiders jumped in and say they are being forced to do dailies and unlock gears at an extremely slow speed.

    Blizzard created crafting for casuals to slowly get mats and create gear upgrades. But a lot of raiders jumepd in and say they are being forced to craft to prepare for raid.

    If brawler or pet battle gives out any sort of significant rewards, you will hear raiders jump in and say now they are being forced to do brawlers and pet battle.

    Basically, as soon as Blizzard add something for casual to unlock slowly for gear progression, raiders will jump in and moan about how slow it is. Then proceed to blame blizzard for forcing them to do all these extra stuff when all they wanted to do is raid. I think it will be extremely difficult for Blizzard to come up with a gear progression path for casuals to slowly progress on their own pace without raiders flipping the table and whine on forums. Even if Blizzard put in a flag that says "if you raid normal or heroic, these rewards will be blocked" to thawrt raiders feeling forced, raiders will still complain about casuals gettin "welfare epix" and scream game being dumbed down and unfair treatment.

    So in the end, the problem is in the community and less on the game design imo.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    Progression aside I do think Blizzard has been hurting themselves by not adding 5 mans and daily areas now. Given the problems are probably more varied than that but a game doesn't lose 4 million subscribers in a year (primarily with casuals judging by their recent remarks) solely because the game is old. 5 mans gave a nice quick rewarding way to gear a character up with with LFR you sit in a queue for almost an hour and leave with nothing most the time and in the end WoW's entire end-game is based around gear so when you spend 6 hours doing 4 LFR wings and have nothing to show for it you aren't pushed to want to do it again.
    Please, please no more Daily Quest hubs. Give me more instanced content, more long quest lines, procedurally-generated quests (go to [place] and [verb] [amount] of [noun]), places I can grind mobs for rare drops, even hula-hoop tournaments, but no more Daily hubs.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Please, please no more Daily Quest hubs. Give me more instanced content, more long quest lines, procedurally-generated quests (go to [place] and [verb] [amount] of [noun]), places I can grind mobs for rare drops, even hula-hoop tournaments, but no more Daily hubs.
    I admit daily hubs in too large of numbers can be annoying but outside 5 mans they are one of the best ways to drag out content. Otherwise you get 5.3 where you're done with everything in 1 day. Even 5.4 doesn't seem to offer much outside the raid given it will have no daily area (Timeless Isle is for Wrathion's quest and the world bosses) and no more 5 mans are in MoP. Scenario's could have been a nice replacement to an extent but they aren't nearly rewarding enough to want to do more than once a day. Personally I expect a complete 180 on a lot of MoP design decisions come the next expansion.

  17. #17
    I can't wrap my head around you not seeing gear progression paths that aren't raiding. I'm not going to go over the things previous posters have mentioned, but I'll put something new out there - purely from an ilvl-perspective, you can attain 522 items in Neck, Shoulder, Back, Chest, Wrist, Hands, Waist, Legs, Ring (1) and Trinket (1). You can get 522 tier Hands and Legs off Nalak. You can get Ring (2) from Oondasta, along with other slots. That leaves only Trinket (2) and weapon(s), and head slot. Head and weapon(s) can be gained from heroic scenarios at 516 ilvl. And finish off with a 496 Trinket (2) from last tier's VP vendor. That gives you an ilvl of 519.46. Then, 8 ilvl VP upgrades on every slot and you're at 527 ilvl, without ever stepping foot in a raid other than LFR.

    Please, tell me more about your lack of gear progression options outside of organised raiding?

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Dungeons that mattered.
    Nail? Meet head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    ...without ever stepping foot in a raid other than LFR.

    Please, tell me more about your lack of gear progression options outside of organised raiding?
    So, you're having to raid? I'm glad we ironed that out.

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans crakerjack's Avatar
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    Idk man... that seems a bit much... I loved WoW for what it was and I endured the changes... I was fine with them until cata... once cata hit, I decided that too many things had changed and it was time for me to part ways. I started playing because I loved co-op games... one of my favorite co-op games was the lord of the rings twin towers and return of the king for PS2... when I found out about WoW from playing custom matches on WC3... I opt for the beta and started playing. I loved the challenge of leveling... you literally had to use everything just to kill mobs and you'd have to drink/eat afterwards... every level was an achievement... that ding sound... saying in guild chat "Ding" and everyone would say gratz. Now you can get to level 20 in an hour with only using 1 ability. I remember elite quests, having to ask random people to help and some times they would, other times they wouldn't. When I did my first 40 man... I was blown away how fun it was and I thought that maybe in the future I could see 100 man raids, taking down huge raid bosses that azzeroth has never seen. Sadly the game went the opposite direction and focused more on smaller raids... I didn't mind 10/25, they were fine. I really liked how as a guild we had to split up into separate raids... we kind of made a competition out of it in the guild and would make trades with our rosters. Eventually we'd form back together to do gruuls/mag/SSC/TK/BT/hyjal and we'd have the the time of our lives... if this pattern got 13 million people to play at one point... what was so wrong with it? Now that subs dropped and continue to do so... don't you think these constant changes are to blame? Don't you think based on past experiences that reducing raids even more would lead to more sub losses? I don't care where the game heads now, I don't play it, but people will continue to quit the more you change it... people who started in wrath/cata/mop think WoW should be one way, but it should be other way considering it got more people to play in the first place.
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  20. #20
    The players you are refering to don't want to make any effort in order to obtain their welfare epics. In theory it's a good idea but these new generation gamers expect everything served on a plate.

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