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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    You can get 522 tier Hands and Legs off Nalak. You can get Ring (2) from Oondasta, along with other slots. That leaves only Trinket (2) and weapon(s), and head slot. Head and weapon(s) can be gained from heroic scenarios at 516 ilvl. And finish off with a 496 Trinket (2) from last tier's VP vendor. That gives you an ilvl of 519.46.
    You are misinformed. To get anything from Nalak, Oondasta and heroic scenarios - you should be much more than child of Fortune itself. Especially scenarios - chance to get 516 itself is like 0,0..01, and then it should happen to be for slot you need. Which makes this grind for some particular slot to be much longer than eternity. Head from scenarios is also excluded, because it has no meta socket.

    So... even if you happened to be better than child of Fortune and grinded millions of dailies for old VP gear, that leaves you with ilvl 519.46, which is basically twice less powerful than 541. I wouldn't call it as anything even remotely close to be another progression path.

    If another progression path is to be linked with gear, it should allow you to get as high as 541 gear. Otherwise it isn't progression path, rather some time sink which ends you with things which are submediocre at best, most of progression still being pigeon-holed into raiding.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 01:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcao View Post
    The players you are refering to don't want to make any effort in order to obtain their welfare epics. In theory it's a good idea but these new generation gamers expect everything served on a plate.
    I am playing one of first MMORPGs now, which had no level cap. You always had something to aim for. Currently in WoW (and it's clones), everything is pigeon-holed in raiding activity, so once you reach lv90 (which is mostly passive process), and can't raid for this or other reason, your progress ends here. RNG bound with submediocre gear as basis of progress isn't really enticing, even D3 developers got that and introduced Paragon Levels.

  2. #22
    I probably wouldn't mind LFR too much if it wasn't so obviously set up to drag out the content as long as possible with such low drop rates. My alts geared faster during DS when I had to compete against people with rolls. I think the larger raids kinda don't help it though since while a large raid is cool it also makes for 4 hours worth of queues to do all 4 wings and then add about another 2-3 hours for running them. Where I was done with DS within a couple hours on a alt in 4.3 I now take over 6 hours to do all the wings of ToT on an alt. Since I don't care for normal raiding any longer playing my alts is one of the things keeping me entertained but I instead feel pushed to not do LFR till the next tier each time when the previous tier has its drop rate increased.
    Last edited by Mech; 2013-06-13 at 10:58 PM.

  3. #23
    I am aware there are a few quests here and there, and over time valor gets you a few items. But think of this way, if LFR didn't exist, would you be happy with those gearing options on their own? I'm not even totally concerned about what ilvl anything would be, what if you assume LFR doesn't exist, and the ilvl is just some area that is less than normal (or flex, w/e).

    I know LFR is the easiest, cheapest fix, but that seems to be selling a lot of player's short, and treating them like that's all they even want to do. $15/mo to raid in LFR to get miserable at drop rates, and berated by anyone with an attitude.


    As far "hardcore" players feeling forced to do XYZ, that's rubbish. Coming from such a player, LFR takes a fraction of an evening if you ACTUALLY feel like you're forced to do it. I know our guild did each wing the first week they were out, mostly for kicks, but interest tapered off sharply as we started to get heroic kills. BOE items of significant quality exist now, and I don't see "hardcore" players complaining they have to buy them.


    Anyway, it seems like an area of the game really tacked on as a small supplement. If players are so worried about making things everyone can see, why not make this content for that "99%" of the playerbase, that's actually fun and rewarding.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    Since I don't care for normal raiding any longer playing my alts is one of the things keeping me entertained but I instead feel pushed to not do LFR till the next tier each time when the previous tier has its drop rate increased.
    This is also one of the reasons which leads many players to play only around patch days. Why bother with super-low chance to get some crap gear trying to progress character, when you can just do LFR once to see content, and then do it with higher droprate next patch to meet ilvl for next patch's LFR.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    All this talk of needing LFR because "possibly it allowed thousands of players to raid who otherwise would have just logged off...." why can't they just make some interesting things for players that is a gear progression path and nothing to do with raids?

    People can't commit to set times, or want to deal with such environment... so create something for them unique instead of just taking existing raids and turning the slider to 1.
    Any form of gear progression is "mandatory" to hardcore raiders, who do two things with their lives:

    1) Raid and grind gear
    2) Complain on forums

    So whatever that alternative gear progression might be, the forum hardcores will be complaining that it is both "mandatory" and "for mouthbreathers."

    You really can't win.

  6. #26
    I didn't want to start the "LFR isn't real raiding debate", so that part was probably phrased poorly or should have been left out. The only reason I mentioned it was that the 522 VP gear is tied to rep as well, which you can only get from LFR/normal/heroic ToT. And rep-gated rewards don't need another conversation haha.

    I should have put a caveat at the end of my last post. I actually agree with the OP in regards to there being more paths - I really wish there were, because the path there is isn't very appealing. But I read the OP as saying "there isn't any other way". I'm not saying it's easy, or fun, or fast. I'm just saying that the alternative gear progression paths to raiding are absolutely there.

    Sure, they're not as great rewards as heroic raiding, but...do you think doing "casual" content should give the same rewards as heroic raiding? Genuine question. I, for one, don't, but I'm not going to judge someone poorly if they do. It's a pretty subjective matter.

    To take it down a pretty slippery slope, I could say "I don't play well with others and don't want to do any group-related content, why can't I get similar gear progression from solo play?". I know, I know, it's an MMO, social play is kinda the point, but where do you draw the line?

    Should you able to get the same rewards no matter how you partake in the game?

  7. #27
    The problem is just dev time. Raids aer convientent because they are gated at 1 time per week. The only other model would be something like Molten Front dailies where they gated you for about 33 days.

    it is just a sad truth of MMOs.. the devs cannot create content nearly as fast as we consume it.. so no matter what, you are going to be grinding dailies, or doing 1 raid a week as your progression.

    I also think the devs fell into this trap in WOTLK.. where it now became ´normal´ for people to be raiding the first week after an expansion hits. This greatly removes the need to do quests at level cap, then do normal dungeons, then do heroics.. then reps.. etc etc. Now instead, we finish it all in one week and start raiding.. and if you don´t raid, you are pretty much out of content. And now for raiders, it needs to be fast because of replacements. This is a raid centric game, they devs made that choice, and so there can´t really be much of an alternative advancement system outside of raiding.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    All this talk of needing LFR because "possibly it allowed thousands of players to raid who otherwise would have just logged off...." why can't they just make some interesting things for players that is a gear progression path and nothing to do with raids?

    People can't commit to set times, or want to deal with such environment... so create something for them unique instead of just taking existing raids and turning the slider to 1.
    What caliber of gear do you expect? And if you're not running raids, why would you need a full set of raid-caliber gear?

    You can gear up through dungeons, dailies, and rep. It won't be on par with normal-mode raiding, and it may be slow, but it does give something to do as you play.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    2 - Because anything you make available for casuals that gives them gear/rewards, the hardcore crew will find themselves obligated to do.
    The hardcores/nolifers dont care because they have all the time in the world to do all the grinds. It is the players with lives that care, aka casuals. It is also the casuals who dont like a challenge who will complain that the challenging content is too hard and cry for nerfs. This is the reason given by Blizzard for why Challenge modes will not reward stat based gear in order for it to remain optional in the eyes of gear hungry "casuals" that must have it all. Brawlers guild despite being unique in content doesnt get cries for nerfs because it doesnt offer gear, if it had then so called "casuals" would be crying for nerfs and complaining about inaccessible content as an excuse to get the gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I think this is a tricky one.

    Blizzard tried dailies for casuals to slowly unlock gears on their own pace. But a lot of raiders jumped in and say they are being forced to do dailies and unlock gears at an extremely slow speed.

    Yeah its a odd one when at first the developers was acting like the VP rewards was not for raiders and that the rewards are not significant enough to mater. Then later the lead raid designer mentions that the rewards was too powerful and then later GC makes a tweet saying that the VP rewards was for raiders and that it was supposed to be something for them to do other than raiding.

    The VP gear did not have to be locked behind a reputation. It was not locked behind a reputation before and there would not have been an issue if Blizzard wasnt trying to get five man players and raiders into doing daily content that they did not want to do in the first place That is the other thing, it was not just the raiders who complained about the VP rewards being locked behind dailies, it was those who do five mans and other group based content didnt want to have to deal with a solo grind that they didnt enjoy in order to be able get access to the gear they had before just to spend the VP points they earned. The whole reason why dailies was being rewarded VP in the first place was to allow more options so that those who like dailies didnt feel like they needed to do five mans and screw over five man groups like they did back in Cata. But Blizzard got greedy and fucked it up by placing the VP rewards behind reputation in order to justify spending all those resources on dailies.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-14 at 01:01 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    What caliber of gear do you expect? And if you're not running raids, why would you need a full set of raid-caliber gear?
    I have no idea, why is LFR so necessary to so many people? I am not that level of player, so I can't tell you. I can tell you that my two alts that I throw through LFR aren't very exciting anymore. Why do I need more healing gear? So I can carry even harder in more LFRs that no one cares about? :P I haven't really done them beyond week 3 of Throne, both are at about ilvl500, and I am pretty much done caring about them. There's nothing to do with those characters.



    I am not really going to say who does/doesn't NEED gear or for what reasons, but why are we making people who don't want to/can't raid... get gear through raids? I guess is my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Any form of gear progression is "mandatory" to hardcore raiders, who do two things with their lives:

    1) Raid and grind gear
    2) Complain on forums

    So whatever that alternative gear progression might be, the forum hardcores will be complaining that it is both "mandatory" and "for mouthbreathers."

    You really can't win.
    It's not an issue, I can just tell you that now. Forum goers are really overplaying this "hardcores will do it" thing, because people did DS LFR constantly to get tier pieces and bonuses. Now they're just doing 3-4 normal runs on week one, and getting normal loot instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    The problem is just dev time. Raids aer convientent because they are gated at 1 time per week. The only other model would be something like Molten Front dailies where they gated you for about 33 days.

    it is just a sad truth of MMOs.. the devs cannot create content nearly as fast as we consume it.. so no matter what, you are going to be grinding dailies, or doing 1 raid a week as your progression.

    I also think the devs fell into this trap in WOTLK.. where it now became ´normal´ for people to be raiding the first week after an expansion hits. This greatly removes the need to do quests at level cap, then do normal dungeons, then do heroics.. then reps.. etc etc. Now instead, we finish it all in one week and start raiding.. and if you don´t raid, you are pretty much out of content. And now for raiders, it needs to be fast because of replacements. This is a raid centric game, they devs made that choice, and so there can´t really be much of an alternative advancement system outside of raiding.
    I 100% get all of your points. Dev time is precious, but this is hardly the game to be short on resources. If we were playing Lord of the Rings Online, I'd buy it. But this game has millions of people, start putting in content like it does. Just going "here's LFR, bam we pleased both player bases in one fell swoop!" is too much of a cop out. No one likes dailies, but it's all we've known since BC. Come up with something fresh, something we haven't thought of. Blizzard has a lot of talented people, get some ideas :P

    I also agree that this was sort of the route they chose in Wrath, faster gearing, and whatnot.
    Last edited by fangless; 2013-06-14 at 12:21 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    (...) you can attain 522 items in Neck, Shoulder, Back, Chest, Wrist, Hands, Waist, Legs, Ring (1) and Trinket (1). You can get 522 tier Hands and Legs off Nalak. You can get Ring (2) from Oondasta, along with other slots. That leaves only Trinket (2) and weapon(s), and head slot. Head and weapon(s) can be gained from heroic scenarios at 516 ilvl. And finish off with a 496 Trinket (2) from last tier's VP vendor. That gives you an ilvl of 519.46. Then, 8 ilvl VP upgrades on every slot and you're at 527 ilvl, without ever stepping foot in a raid other than LFR.
    That's an interesting gear list... but how much VP and rep in total would you need to get all that? There's a sweet spot between "progressing too fast and getting bored" and "feeling like you'll never finish your set before the next tier drops".

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    I know LFR is the easiest, cheapest fix, but that seems to be selling a lot of player's short, and treating them like that's all they even want to do. $15/mo to raid in LFR to get miserable at drop rates, and berated by anyone with an attitude.
    Well, the miserable drop rates are in part a direct consequence of having to avoid people who would have no business in LFR in the first place (read: raiders after every single possible advantage they can) taking advantage of the system. The second is a player issue and not a gameplay issue. Believe me, if Blizzard could shut up the crowd who berates and insults people who run LFR, they would have done it already.

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    As far "hardcore" players feeling forced to do XYZ, that's rubbish. Coming from such a player, LFR takes a fraction of an evening if you ACTUALLY feel like you're forced to do it. I know our guild did each wing the first week they were out, mostly for kicks, but interest tapered off sharply as we started to get heroic kills. BOE items of significant quality exist now, and I don't see "hardcore" players complaining they have to buy them.
    You haven't been to the official forums (or even these forums, occasionally) much, have you? There's always someone making the argument that they're forced to do LFR week after week because their guild/raid leader demands they do so. You can present the argument that those aren't "real" hardcore players, but either way there have been complaints about it ever since LFR was announced.

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Anyway, it seems like an area of the game really tacked on as a small supplement. If players are so worried about making things everyone can see, why not make this content for that "99%" of the playerbase, that's actually fun and rewarding.
    Please keep in mind that "fun and rewarding" are both very subjective terms. No one knows what the all-important silent majority thinks, because... well, they're not talking. The only thing we know is that LFR has been highly successful in terms of having people playing it. And also that some people do have fun with it (like Glitch), while others find it the greatest source of boredom this side of watching paint dry. Neither are enough to make the assumption that LFR is not fun and/or engaging for a majority of people.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    I am not really going to say who does/doesn't NEED gear or for what reasons, but why are we making people who don't want to/can't raid... get gear through raids? I guess is my point.
    Because LFR is a raid for a lot of people, with the added advantage of not having to plan your schedule around it. They want to get more gear so they can see their pretty yellow/green numbers go up. Or maybe they want to do Brawlers Guild. Or they want to do their dailies and open-world content faster/more conveniently. Or they like soloing old content. Or maybe they're just doing LFR because it's there and they can do it.
    Last edited by Holtzmann; 2013-06-14 at 12:20 AM.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I think this is a tricky one.

    Blizzard tried dailies for casuals to slowly unlock gears on their own pace. But a lot of raiders jumped in and say they are being forced to do dailies and unlock gears at an extremely slow speed.
    And in 5.2. they tried the raid faction which unlocked valor gear, which forced casuals to run LFR just to get that reputation. I would have prefered by a mile a daily quest system aside the current one in 5.2.

  13. #33
    There is one, it's called 463 heroic gear. If you never do anything harder than dungeons then you have no need for higher gear because that's the ilvl heroics are tuned for.

    Are you asking for them to create higher ilvl content that's not a raid as well? Like what? Tiers of 5-mans? I mean they could, but high end WoW has always been about raids.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 12:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I think this is a tricky one.

    Blizzard tried dailies for casuals to slowly unlock gears on their own pace. But a lot of raiders jumped in and say they are being forced to do dailies and unlock gears at an extremely slow speed.
    I'll bet you for every raider bitching about dailies there were 50 non-raiders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 12:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    That's an interesting gear list... but how much VP and rep in total would you need to get all that? There's a sweet spot between "progressing too fast and getting bored" and "feeling like you'll never finish your set before the next tier drops".
    My main finished buying her VP gear and started doing VP upgrades last week. Took a while I guess, personally I thought the time flew by. Notably, I got at least half my VP gear before I got an LFR drop for that slot. And I'm still only 4/12 Titan Runestones lol.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 12:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    I am aware there are a few quests here and there, and over time valor gets you a few items. But think of this way, if LFR didn't exist, would you be happy with those gearing options on their own? I'm not even totally concerned about what ilvl anything would be, what if you assume LFR doesn't exist, and the ilvl is just some area that is less than normal (or flex, w/e).
    What if LFR, NM and HM all didn't exist? No raids in the game at all. If that were the case the highest ilvl in the game would still be 463 blues.

    Of course if that were the case we'd all be complaining about the lack of new content. So I guess Blizzard would replace raids with higher difficulty/ilvl heroics and scenarios (and CMs). It could happen I suppose. I don't think it will though. Blizzard likes the bigger feeling raids have with the larger number of players.

    The way the game works now, if you only do dungeons then you can slowly get raid gear and "progress" your gear, but it's kind of weird because you're using gear intended for much more difficult content to overpower the content you "like" to do. I mean if Blizzard really considered "dungeon only" players a discrete group of players they would probably do something like put an ilvl cap on dungeons so all your gear scaled down to 463. Or not let you get VP in dungeons. Thing is, they don't. They view dungeons as a stepping stone to raids.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2013-06-14 at 01:00 AM.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post

    What if LFR, NM and HM all didn't exist? No raids in the game at all. If that were the case the highest ilvl in the game would still be 463 blues.

    Of course if that were the case we'd all be complaining about the lack of new content. So I guess Blizzard would replace raids with higher difficulty/ilvl heroics and scenarios (and CMs). It could happen I suppose. I don't think it will though. Blizzard likes the bigger feeling raids have with the larger number of players.
    To be fair in all likelihood they'd be adding 5 mans then and in that case the highest ilvl would be whatever the newest 5 mans gave.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    That's an interesting gear list... but how much VP and rep in total would you need to get all that?
    Because I'm bored at work, I'll have a go... for the worst case scenario, where we remove all RNG drops, where you fill every slot that VP gear is available for, you buy 502 crafted weapons, ring (2) and trinket (2) would be 496 from last tier's VP vendor, and head would be 522 crafted (precious meta gem slot!!), and assuming you're a fresh 90 catching up, and that you're a dual weilding class, and coming into 5.2 with 0 VP saved:

    Shado-Pan VP items total is 15000 VP by my count, old tier VP items is 1500, upgrade total on 16 pieces is another 8000VP for 24500. So that's 25 weeks of VP capping. 5.2 went live on March 5th. 5.4 doesn't have a release date yet, but as long as it doesn't hit before August 27, you'd be able to farm enough VP for all those items and upgrades before the next tier. And that gear would give a 524 ilvl when fully upgraded.

    Again, I can't imagine this would be much fun, but for a casual player who can't raid normals onwards, it's possible. And you would need to run a lot of ToT lfr for the Shado-Pan rep, but getting all 4 wings done each week isn't too hard.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    Because I'm bored at work, I'll have a go... for the worst case scenario, where we remove all RNG drops, where you fill every slot that VP gear is available for, you buy 502 crafted weapons, ring (2) and trinket (2) would be 496 from last tier's VP vendor, and head would be 522 crafted (precious meta gem slot!!), and assuming you're a fresh 90 catching up, and that you're a dual weilding class, and coming into 5.2 with 0 VP saved:

    Shado-Pan VP items total is 15000 VP by my count, old tier VP items is 1500, upgrade total on 16 pieces is another 8000VP for 24500. So that's 25 weeks of VP capping. 5.2 went live on March 5th. 5.4 doesn't have a release date yet, but as long as it doesn't hit before August 27, you'd be able to farm enough VP for all those items and upgrades before the next tier. And that gear would give a 524 ilvl when fully upgraded.

    Again, I can't imagine this would be much fun, but for a casual player who can't raid normals onwards, it's possible. And you would need to run a lot of ToT lfr for the Shado-Pan rep, but getting all 4 wings done each week isn't too hard.
    Hey, thanks for the numbers! Let's take a look at them-- oof! I think you could upgrade that to "no fun at all"! Even if you cut that in half to account for luck and so on, that'd be 12 weeks, three full months of capping Valor every single week. How much would that be/how far would you get with that if LFR didn't exist at all?

    One serious problem is that relying on vendor gear diminishes/removes one of Blizzard's most important elements when it comes to gearing: things just randomly dropping for you. Knowing what you invariably need two more weeks of grinding out Valor to buy an item is far less exciting than running a dungeon/raid and seeing an item you can use drop immediately.

    It's kind of weird that the system Blizzard implemented strictly as a catch-up mechanism for when you're unlucky in raids (badge/point gear in general) is being used a possible main source of gearing for casuals in some no-LFR scenarios here. I don't think that works, at least not alone. Even PvP gearing, that's by definition a point based grind, still has unpredictability in the sense that you winning or losing your match (something that is beyond your full control, although you can affect it) affects your Honor/Conquest point income. Some measure of unpredictability must be involved in the short term, otherwise the excitement of working towards a new piece can very quickly turn into boredom and burnout.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  17. #37
    Oh absolutely, I wouldn't do that if you paid me. If you refused LFR, you wouldn't get rep at all past Shado-Pan neutral and you'd only be able to get the Neck at 522, which would defeat my whole argument You'd be stuck with 489/496 vendor gear in every other slot except feet and head (crafted 522) and weapon(s) (crafted 502) and possibly crafted 496 chest and hands as well, but even a lot of that is tied to rep, and it'd more be a case of grinding dailies with 4 or 5 factions instead of just grinding VP and LFR. Don't think I can be bothered going into all those numbers, but somewhere in the vicinity of 500-505 ilvl after upgrades would be about right. But you'd get there a heap faster, since the old VP items cost half as much now. But you'd want a lot of gold for all the crafted things as well...about 100k at least, going off prices on my server.

    I agree entirely on the lack of excitement. What I've just described sounds like some kind of awful chore, playing solo doing repetitive content just to get sub-par gear (although I'd say ilvl 524 is quite a bit above par). But it kind of irks me a bit when people start these "why am I forced into doing dailies/lfr/raiding/whatever to get big rewards" threads. What's really being said is "I want the best rewards available from doing whatever I like in the game". And unfortunately that's not really how any game works, at least in my experience.

    The OP mentioned Brawlers Guild giving rewards, and that's a good idea, haven't set foot in there personally but I've heard it's pretty challenging at the higher ranks. I'd have no issue with that giving progressively higher ilvl rewards as you rank up. But as soon as you put anything with an ilvl higher than normal mode raiding, you'll get a lot of people complaining that they have to suddenly finish the brawlers guild to get that upgrade they need for raid progression. Whether they need it or not is going off topic a bit, but my point is that you can't please everyone all the time, and Blizzard has a ridiculously number of bases they're trying to cover. Which is, again, another topic.

  18. #38
    You know what awesome is about gear progression outside of raids?
    Knowing it will benefit you, you're guild, and serve you long and well for raids.

    Without intentions to raid I can't see this "gear progression" have much meaning outside of raids.
    So I assume it's merely for farming older raids or Brawler's Guild better.

  19. #39
    There's something to be said for the RPG mindset that the whole point of the game is character progression. What you want it for, or whether you need it to complete other goals is besides the point. The aim of the game is making your guy as powerful as possible for it's own sake, not killing the hardest boss. And while they're linked, they're not quite the same thing.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Complaints and threats of unsubbing are still complaints and threats of unsubbing. You can see the upheaval within the community (which is made, in its essence, of the minority of players who are vocal about what they think) when a group thinks it's being ignored. Do it deliberately and watch the storm in the teacup threaten to flood the entire coffee table.
    A group will yell and make a lot of noise simply because they can.

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