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  1. #41
    Casual PvE gear progression would be pretty neat, but I feel before they add that, they need to re-do the entire loot/gear system. All the "ilvl" stuff and the numbers are confusing and way too high. I hope in the next expansion we get an item-squish, back to where people have around 20k-30k health average, like Wrath numbers. That would be nice. Also they need to get rid of ilvl, way too many people freak out about it and it is dependent, it just took the horrible add-on gear score and added it to the game, giving each person a "number" instead of their skill.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerschlag View Post
    Also they need to get rid of ilvl, way too many people freak out about it and it is dependent, it just took the horrible add-on gear score and added it to the game, giving each person a "number" instead of their skill.
    The display of ilvl primarily with a players average ilvl was due to the random queue system and needing to make players aware of the metric of which the game was using to define if someone met the requirements. In other words its a necessary evil of the random queue system and its inability to measure a person by skill. Even if a system could measure a player by skill there will be those who ether cannot meet the skill requirements or are too lazy to and will complain about being excluded.

    The ilvl display on gear makes it easier for the less discerning eyes to tell if an item is an upgrade because looking at stats is somehow "hardcore" or at least that is what a segment of casuals have said.

  3. #43
    Dungeons used to serve this purpose until Blizzard turned them into badge/point farms.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerschlag View Post
    Casual PvE gear progression would be pretty neat, but I feel before they add that, they need to re-do the entire loot/gear system. All the "ilvl" stuff and the numbers are confusing and way too high. I hope in the next expansion we get an item-squish, back to where people have around 20k-30k health average, like Wrath numbers. That would be nice. Also they need to get rid of ilvl, way too many people freak out about it and it is dependent, it just took the horrible add-on gear score and added it to the game, giving each person a "number" instead of their skill.
    Ilvl was in WoW since very start, it simply was hidden stat till late WotLK. Even if there would be no ilvl around, some items would still be weaker, some - stronger. Also in RPG, skill is heavily tied to stats. If only lol-arcade skill would matter, then any character progression would have no sense. "Item-squish" is also going against character progression, no matter how you put it.
    There's something to be said for the RPG mindset that the whole point of the game is character progression. What you want it for, or whether you need it to complete other goals is besides the point. The aim of the game is making your guy as powerful as possible for it's own sake, not killing the hardest boss. And while they're linked, they're not quite the same thing.
    Quoted for truth!
    There is one, it's called 463 heroic gear. If you never do anything harder than dungeons then you have no need for higher gear because that's the ilvl heroics are tuned for.

    Are you asking for them to create higher ilvl content that's not a raid as well? Like what? Tiers of 5-mans? I mean they could, but high end WoW has always been about raids.
    Person in 463 gear in comparison to person in 541 gear is like mosquito to god, literally. Thankfully LFR fills the gaps, but without it (as some people would want so much) - there would be not much interest playing such game. I don't know who'd enjoy being forever stuck as mosquito, while few people would be rolling all over them and content as gods.

    Meanwhile WoW always was about raids - that doesn't mean it always should be like that. Anyway, raids aren't popular, especially after raid design paradigm shift. There should be other things for people to do for character progression, with rewards not being sub-par to raid rewards. So if those rewards would be gear, it should be going up-to ilvl 541, and have solid system behind them, not a daily bag with 0,0..01 chance to contain it.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerschlag View Post
    Casual PvE gear progression would be pretty neat, but I feel before they add that, they need to re-do the entire loot/gear system. All the "ilvl" stuff and the numbers are confusing and way too high. I hope in the next expansion we get an item-squish, back to where people have around 20k-30k health average, like Wrath numbers. That would be nice. Also they need to get rid of ilvl, way too many people freak out about it and it is dependent, it just took the horrible add-on gear score and added it to the game, giving each person a "number" instead of their skill.
    They can't get rid of ilevel, it's how stat values on gear are determined. Hide it, and players will go back to one of the older methods of scoring each others' gear: gear score addons(Wrath), or straight AP/SP/HP comparisons(BC).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    There should be other things for people to do for character progression, with rewards not being sub-par to raid rewards. So if those rewards would be gear, it should be going up-to ilvl 541, and have solid system behind them, not a daily bag with 0,0..01 chance to contain it.
    It's funny to think that if this were in the game to begin with, people wouldn't bat an eyelash to it. But now, with how we are trained to the game, it seems like an outrageous idea. There is a level of effort->reward to maintain, but there could definitely be Warlock fire quest level stuff for really good items.


    I don't even think you'd have to do these types of paths for just solo players, groups don't seem horrible, especially with the lack of interaction already in the game.

  7. #47
    Brewmaster Detheavn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Dungeons used to serve this purpose until Blizzard turned them into badge/point farms.
    Which goes as far back as TBC, believed by a lot to be the best days of WoW, so that's really a moot point

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Baine View Post
    And in 5.2. they tried the raid faction which unlocked valor gear, which forced casuals to run LFR just to get that reputation. I would have prefered by a mile a daily quest system aside the current one in 5.2.
    You do know you have to run LFR for TWO weeks to unlock all valor gear right?

    In that time your max Valor is 2k, which is only enough to buy one item.

  9. #49
    I don't understand why WoW doesn't have better crafting rewards. So I'm this Grand imperial, high master, Illustrious Pobah, best thing since sliced bread Tailor... yet I can't make a robe that is anywhere near as good as what falls out of a giant eyeball? I mean really? So if I, this amazing tailor can't make such a robe, who the hell made it? God Himself?

    The fact of the matter is that using, the already in game, trades system is the perfect way for casuals to have an alternate avenue of gear advancement. So a tailor, with enough mats and time, could make a FULL set of cloth gear that's as good as what you can get in a raid. Need weapons? To the AH and buy a blacksmiths dagger.

    Just make all created items BoE, that means no profession is mandatory, if you can't make it - buy it. Don't have the gold? Use whatever profession you do have to make items for sell or trade.

    As far as gathering the mats, it doesn't have to be this dumbed down version we currently have of a couple types of ore, or one type of cloth, or once a day CD's. You could have a myriad of needed mats, coming from many different places. Say a vest might require a certain type of button. These buttons are only found on a certain type of mob. So even a Blacksmith would need to do more than fly in circles.

    The possibilities are endless. And not only that, it would encourage player interaction and well as get people back out into the world.
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  10. #50
    Something like Valor point is a great way to provide progression without raiders feeling mandatory (because they can also be acquired thru raids)

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ovm33 View Post
    I don't understand why WoW doesn't have better crafting rewards. So I'm this Grand imperial, high master, Illustrious Pobah, best thing since sliced bread Tailor... yet I can't make a robe that is anywhere near as good as what falls out of a giant eyeball? I mean really? So if I, this amazing tailor can't make such a robe, who the hell made it? God Himself?

    The fact of the matter is that using, the already in game, trades system is the perfect way for casuals to have an alternate avenue of gear advancement. So a tailor, with enough mats and time, could make a FULL set of cloth gear that's as good as what you can get in a raid. Need weapons? To the AH and buy a blacksmiths dagger.

    Just make all created items BoE, that means no profession is mandatory, if you can't make it - buy it. Don't have the gold? Use whatever profession you do have to make items for sell or trade.

    As far as gathering the mats, it doesn't have to be this dumbed down version we currently have of a couple types of ore, or one type of cloth, or once a day CD's. You could have a myriad of needed mats, coming from many different places. Say a vest might require a certain type of button. These buttons are only found on a certain type of mob. So even a Blacksmith would need to do more than fly in circles.

    The possibilities are endless. And not only that, it would encourage player interaction and well as get people back out into the world.
    With Virtual Realms, something like that would be possible. But I'm very wary of making someone's progress in the gearing game depend on gold. I definitely agree that the game needs more and more accessible crafting, but having it being a cornerstone of gearing would probably be a bad idea.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ovm33 View Post
    I don't understand why WoW doesn't have better crafting rewards. So I'm this Grand imperial, high master, Illustrious Pobah, best thing since sliced bread Tailor... yet I can't make a robe that is anywhere near as good as what falls out of a giant eyeball? I mean really? So if I, this amazing tailor can't make such a robe, who the hell made it? God Himself?
    Since when have they NOT had BoE crafted gear equal in power to that which drops in Normal raids ?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Casual progression outside the frame of raiding has to be balanced against the typically obsessive behavior that expresses itself in the idea that everything that provides any sort of gear seems to become 'mandatory' for many. Valor gear is fine for what it is. Getting reputation to acquire that gear is as easy now as it's ever been in MoP.
    your mind, like Blizzards, seems to be trapped in the notion that there is only one way to progress; bigger numbers on your gear.

    why shouldnt it be possible to have progression that leads to a variety of better looking gear, without any increase in stats, using means outside of raids. or gear that has bonuses that are no use for raids; improved collecting, more gold from outside world mobs etc etc. allow people to work towards something that they can show off on their toon, that would be irrelevent for raiders. so then there isnt any question about it becoming "mandatory" for them.

    after all, bigger numbers are only needed for people that are stuck on the raiding rodent wheel.
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  14. #54
    We currently have two paths. There is PvE and PvP. Each rewards it's own set of gear that is not optimal for the other path. Arena and Rated BG players don't feel the need to do raids to keep up, raiders don't need to PvP to advance their own path.

    The problem with having another progression path, is that people will feel they have to do the new content for the new, "more powerful than last tier" gear. If the new gear is not more powerful than last tier, then nobody will do it, and the content will be declared pointless.

    And there lies the problem. Gear. The game revolves around it. Most of the game exists to get you more of it, and the content that doesn't is hardly used.

  15. #55
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
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    This is an excellent discussion and some very good points raised. I don't know how you could implement this without someone crying that they are being forced to run the content just so they could raid and yet reward casuals with something decent. LFR actually seems like the best option but I would love to hear other ideas.

    I do wish there were more 5 mans, that's easily my favourite type of content and I really wish there was more to begin with. Scenarios are alright but I like the group aspects of a 5 man and find scenarios tend to be a slow story that a couple random people seem to be working on at the same time. I like the idea of heroic scenarios and having to get a group but I really haven't participated yet (want to go with my buddy but he doesn't have 1 toon at 480+).

    If I was blizzard and was worried that older LFR content wouldn't be run if dungeons dropped better loot was to have a chance at LFR loot (at whatever ilvl is current for LFR - 502 right now) out of the dungeon cache, then I would have brought out dungeons at 5.1 that dropped 468s and 5.3 that dropped 473s.

    Also I don't think daily hubs should go away. If done right they are much better than the current collect X for the week, but they need to be much smaller than what we've had and there was way too much at once. Personally I think they need to split up the reputations into various methods to progress, 1 being a daily hub, 1 being pet battle related, 1 being from dungeons, 1 being from raids and even 1 for professions (turn in X amount of mats weekly or something along those lines). They'll need something to bypass those (ie the work orders we do now) or someone will complain that are doing something and it's mandatory. There really should be 2 options for each rep.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    your mind, like Blizzards, seems to be trapped in the notion that there is only one way to progress; bigger numbers on your gear.

    why shouldnt it be possible to have progression that leads to a variety of better looking gear, without any increase in stats, using means outside of raids. or gear that has bonuses that are no use for raids; improved collecting, more gold from outside world mobs etc etc. allow people to work towards something that they can show off on their toon, that would be irrelevent for raiders. so then there isnt any question about it becoming "mandatory" for them.

    after all, bigger numbers are only needed for people that are stuck on the raiding rodent wheel.
    Well, looks like the vast majority of the playerbase, both hardcore raiding and fully casual, are firmly stuck in that rodent wheel and rather unlikely to leave. Besides, more gear makes the rest of the game easier. Hell, the simple jump from upgrading my Hunter's crossbow from ilvl 450 to something out of a Heroic dungeon allowed me to kill the Kor'kron mobs in the Barrens a lot quicker than before.

    Cosmetic or non-combat effects are nice when they come as a perk of an existing path of progression. That's why I supposed mounts, pets, titles and achievements being restricted to Normal and Heroic raiding. But make all the rewards cosmetic and you'll have Challenge Modes: something a lot of people praised to the heavens and back when they were announced, but that at the end very few people effectively did.
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  17. #57
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    your mind, like Blizzards, seems to be trapped in the notion that there is only one way to progress; bigger numbers on your gear.

    why shouldnt it be possible to have progression that leads to a variety of better looking gear, without any increase in stats, using means outside of raids. or gear that has bonuses that are no use for raids; improved collecting, more gold from outside world mobs etc etc. allow people to work towards something that they can show off on their toon, that would be irrelevent for raiders. so then there isnt any question about it becoming "mandatory" for them.

    after all, bigger numbers are only needed for people that are stuck on the raiding rodent wheel.
    My wife would be all over gear that increases bonuses outside of raids (the improved collecting or more gold). However the gear would still have to increase in level or it would lose it's interest because she wants to be able to kill things fast too, even though she's completely casual. Whenever she does group with our guild she doesn't want to hold anyone back or be the worst in the group.
    Last edited by dryankem; 2013-06-14 at 03:34 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    All this talk of needing LFR because "possibly it allowed thousands of players to raid who otherwise would have just logged off...." why can't they just make some interesting things for players that is a gear progression path and nothing to do with raids?
    Believe me, I have been asking that question since the start of Cataclysm. At that point they decided that non-raiding players were going to cap their gear out at 346 and that was that. Then they realized that the non-raiders were unable to attain a foothold in the new raids so they made the previous tier raid gear attainable through JP. Still, there was no sense of progression because it was still a matter of grinding out the same 3 heroic dungeons repeatedly for the VP/JP to buy gear and valor cap was easily attainable in a couple of nights. That's pretty much why I started raiding. I eventually came to the realization, however, that it was silly of me to do content that I simply don't enjoy just to have a sense of progression. The game just wasn't fun any more so I unsubscribed. Your question is definitely relevant to players like me.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    I can't wrap my head around you not seeing gear progression paths that aren't raiding. I'm not going to go over the things previous posters have mentioned, but I'll put something new out there - purely from an ilvl-perspective, you can attain 522 items in Neck, Shoulder, Back, Chest, Wrist, Hands, Waist, Legs, Ring (1) and Trinket (1). You can get 522 tier Hands and Legs off Nalak. You can get Ring (2) from Oondasta, along with other slots. That leaves only Trinket (2) and weapon(s), and head slot. Head and weapon(s) can be gained from heroic scenarios at 516 ilvl. And finish off with a 496 Trinket (2) from last tier's VP vendor. That gives you an ilvl of 519.46. Then, 8 ilvl VP upgrades on every slot and you're at 527 ilvl, without ever stepping foot in a raid other than LFR.

    Please, tell me more about your lack of gear progression options outside of organised raiding?

    I agree with this guy completely. My question to the casual players is if you can obtain that high of an ilvl without stepping foot in a raid, why do you want more more more? You don't need any higher ilvl for the content you are doing. If you aren't going to raid normal or heroic there is no reason to have that high of an ilvl.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Besides, more gear makes the rest of the game easier. Hell, the simple jump from upgrading my Hunter's crossbow from ilvl 450 to something out of a Heroic dungeon allowed me to kill the Kor'kron mobs in the Barrens a lot quicker than before.
    This is precisely why my mind just shuts off when I see players make the argument, "Why do you want raiding gear if you're not raiding?" Notice that no one is clamoring for PvP gear now, and they weren't doing so before it was nerfed either. That's because PvP gear is only useful for PvP. Raiding gear, on the other hand, is useful for pretty much everything, including PvP. That's why people want raiding gear. If they really wanted to make raiding gear exclusive they would add a stat or alter the mechanics of an existing stat (like hit rating) to make raiding gear exclusively relevant to raiding. Then they could have a separate gearing progression for raiders and non-raiders and no one would complain.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisxor View Post
    I agree with this guy completely. My question to the casual players is if you can obtain that high of an ilvl without stepping foot in a raid, why do you want more more more? You don't need any higher ilvl for the content you are doing. If you aren't going to raid normal or heroic there is no reason to have that high of an ilvl.
    You're sort of ignoring the fact that the raid gear is far superior to LFR gear (despite claims to the contrary). Also, you get gear far faster in a real raid because a month into the raid most of your team members are fully decked out so if you're still short an item it's pretty much guaranteed to be yours when it drops. In LFR you're always stuck with a 15% chance of a drop and a 1/3 chance for the drop you want, giving you a defacto chance of 5% for your desired drop. You're not going to convince me that pugging through content you didn't want to do in the first place with 24 strangers, many of whom are just along to troll you, for a 5% shot at your gear is a progression path that is comparable to actual raiding.

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