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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Dudikof View Post
    Also got our first kill using this strategy. Perfectly viable for progress but it wasn't as easy as it seemed. The comp we decided to go with was 2 tank, 2 heal and 6 dps. Our prot paladin took 3 golems and dark animus on pull and out brewmaster took 2 adds leaving everybody else with 1 apart from our rogue.

    The dps requirement is exaggerated a fair amount in this thread, our prot paladin hadn't even had the dps meta due to rerolling mid tier and our lock hadn't UVLS so couldn't play demo for its advantages on this fight and we still managed to get it down at 2:20. on average every dps was doing 200k dps and prot paladin did 600k ish, so on average ghuild ilvl is 537. We had a total of 89 wipes on this, very rng with trinket procs and if healers had anima font following them. Tank damage is insane was our main burden during progress.

    Good luck to anyone trying it, felt very satisfactory.
    Following this strategy, do you kill the golems on the tanks or do you leave them up the whole fight?

  2. #162
    Going to give this a go for our progress kill and was looking for some advice. Planning 1-2-7 but may do 2-2 or 1-3 in terms of tanks / healers.

    Tank will be a prot paladin (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yblonde/simple), and I had a couple of questions regarding glyphs/cooldowns and priorities throughout the fight. Please keep in mind that my rotation is not 100% perfect so my SOTR uptime is often lower than it should be.

    Fight specific
    1 - Looks like 3 adds at the start is the way to go + boss. How much damage reduction is needed here. Is 50% at a time enough or do I need to be stacking Shieldwall + active mitigation (another 50%) to survive?

    2 - Are killing the adds the priority or can we chain cooldowns for ~1minute to keep very high vengeance for this whole period (ie HA > shield wall > DP+AD > externals) while adds are "passively killed"?

    3 - Did you find the tanks killed the adds, or was it mainly dotters who got higher single target DPS from multidotting (Lock/boomkin/SP)?

    4 - No magic damage on tank apart from the Jolt, right (avoid the massives/anima font)?


    Paladin Specific

    1 - Holy Avenger or DP. I'm worried that I may not get back to back DP procs at the start and SOTR may fall off leading to stupid deaths early on, rather than a little bit lower SOTR uptime at the end of the fight without too much tank damage.

    2 - Does unglyphed AS hit the boss plus the adds? Or is it better to glyph it for extra boss damage and use cons/HoTR plus dotters to kill adds on the tank.

    3 - was planning to have a few sets of cooldowns to be able to tank adds for a while, but do they hit so hard that we need to stack cooldowns (some logs have nearly everything popped together at the start)?

    Thanks for any help

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by SantaMaria View Post
    Going to give this a go for our progress kill and was looking for some advice. Planning 1-2-7 but may do 2-2 or 1-3 in terms of tanks / healers.

    Tank will be a prot paladin (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yblonde/simple), and I had a couple of questions regarding glyphs/cooldowns and priorities throughout the fight. Please keep in mind that my rotation is not 100% perfect so my SOTR uptime is often lower than it should be.

    Fight specific
    1 - Looks like 3 adds at the start is the way to go + boss. How much damage reduction is needed here. Is 50% at a time enough or do I need to be stacking Shieldwall + active mitigation (another 50%) to survive?

    2 - Are killing the adds the priority or can we chain cooldowns for ~1minute to keep very high vengeance for this whole period (ie HA > shield wall > DP+AD > externals) while adds are "passively killed"?

    3 - Did you find the tanks killed the adds, or was it mainly dotters who got higher single target DPS from multidotting (Lock/boomkin/SP)?

    4 - No magic damage on tank apart from the Jolt, right (avoid the massives/anima font)?


    Paladin Specific

    1 - Holy Avenger or DP. I'm worried that I may not get back to back DP procs at the start and SOTR may fall off leading to stupid deaths early on, rather than a little bit lower SOTR uptime at the end of the fight without too much tank damage.

    2 - Does unglyphed AS hit the boss plus the adds? Or is it better to glyph it for extra boss damage and use cons/HoTR plus dotters to kill adds on the tank.

    3 - was planning to have a few sets of cooldowns to be able to tank adds for a while, but do they hit so hard that we need to stack cooldowns (some logs have nearly everything popped together at the start)?

    Thanks for any help
    Here's a Prot Pally point of view of the zerg, should answer all your questions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ghr49UQHPg

    This is the log for it: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1566&e=1682

  4. #164
    In reply to Deredere,
    The prot paladin killed the first upon pull by the 20 second marker when his major cd's fell off at which point it became too much damage, it allowed him to build a significant amount of vengeance though, the offtank killed off golems whilst dpsing boss, killed enough to free up healers, total 3-4 had died.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Tanks in general seem to do more damage in 25 man because things hits harder and thus gaining more vengance. And you can't just look blindly at the HP of mobs when comparing the two, you need to account for that 10 man is based for a lower ilvl due to less geardrops and lower chance for TF (so dpsnumbers might be harder to reach for a 10 man guild than a 25 man guild).

    It might just me not being used to it, but going from 13/13 25 HC to doing 13/13 10 HC, Dark animus in particular is a boss that feels a lot more clunky in 10 man compared to 25, this being mainly due to the abovementioned things with tanks.

    That said, the zerg strat is going to be easier in 10 man (if it's even doable in 25 man), but the part about the 3rd tank and that I'd say is wrong. Obviously doable with 3 tanks in 10 man aswell their damage is not the same.
    A tank that puts out damage on Animus instead of his massive, even in 10 man, will still do the same amount of DPS as an actual DPS. Point is, doing it with 2 or 3 tanks aren't going to matter if the tanks aren't stupid - they'll do the same damage no matter their spec. Thus using 3 tanks should not make or break anything damage wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by iggie View Post
    We on CN realms have to deal with an extra 5% damage/hp from everything. Sure we get a little ilevel boost, but doing this on 25? forget about it
    You're joking, right?
    Just in case you aren't - things on CN realms are actually marginally easier than on EU/US due to the whole "scaling" issue. They slapped 8% HP/DMG on all the 25 man bosses to make up for the 8 extra item levels 25 man gets. That's a flat 8% dmg/hp buff.
    Gaining 8 item levels on an item, however, has it scaling with each previous level. Therefore, let's say you've got an item with 1000 int. you'd expect 8 item levels to give it 1080 int.
    In reality, it's:
    0: 1000*1.01=
    1: 1010*1.01=
    2: 1020.1*1.01=
    3: 1030.3*1.01=
    4: 1040.6*1.01=
    5: 1051*1.01=
    6: 1061.5*1.01=
    7: 1072.1*1.01=
    8: 1082.9.

    So essentially, you gain 8.3% stats due to the higher item level, but only have to deal with 8% more hp/dmg.
    It is a very small difference, yes, but mathematically, it means you have it easier.
    (that's obviously not accounting for the fact that if you've got 8 item levels more worth of gear, it'll be far easier to reach haste-breakpoints that may otherwise not be possible, and the fact that your RPPM trinkets will be scaling wildly with the extra item levels - they have increased base stats and proc stats as can be expected, but you have more haste due to the 8 extra levels, meaning they will theoretically proc more often, leading them to be worth more for you than the west-servers).

    So... Yea.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-07-02 at 01:43 AM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You're joking, right?
    Just in case you aren't - things on CN realms are actually marginally easier than on EU/US due to the whole "scaling" issue. They slapped 8% HP/DMG on all the 25 man bosses to make up for the 8 extra item levels 25 man gets. That's a flat 8% dmg/hp buff.
    Gaining 8 item levels on an item, however, has it scaling with each previous level. Therefore, let's say you've got an item with 1000 int. you'd expect 8 item levels to give it 1080 int.
    In reality, it's:
    0: 1000*1.01=
    1: 1010*1.01=
    2: 1020.1*1.01=
    3: 1030.3*1.01=
    4: 1040.6*1.01=
    5: 1051*1.01=
    6: 1061.5*1.01=
    7: 1072.1*1.01=
    8: 1082.9.

    So essentially, you gain 8.3% stats due to the higher item level, but only have to deal with 8% more hp/dmg.
    It is a very small difference, yes, but mathematically, it means you have it easier.
    Your overall point is correct but the justification isn't quite right.

    An 8 ilvl gap should give you 1/[1.15^(-8/15)] = 1.077388x more stats, assuming no sockets (example: 2/2 upgraded renataki's soul charm has 1887 expertise, compared to 1752 on the un-upgraded version => 1887/1752 = 1.0770547 (small difference due to tooltip rounding)).

    The presence of sockets actually increases the relative gain (slightly). Each socket is worth 80 primary stats and 120 secondary stats (distributed) toward an item's budget, and this is preserved as the item is upgraded. Take one of the celestial cloaks as an example:

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=98148

    Going from 0/2 to 2/2 upgrades...

    [1.077388*(1716 agility + 80 agility)] - 80 agility = 1854.98 agility

    [1.077388*(918 crit + 40 crit)] - 40 crit = 992.137 crit (40 = 120 divided by 3 total secondary stats on the item; repeat this calculation for haste/mastery).

    In other words, +8 ilvl gave +8.07% more secondary stats and +8.10% more primary stats in this case (base - taking the static socket into account brings the total gain below 8% again).

    Now, the real heart of the issue is that stats scale off of one another (e.g. each point of haste improves the value of your crit/mastery/primary stat, and the same holds true for any permutation thereof), so an ~8% increase in stats will translate into a more-than-8% increase in DPS/HPS/etc. The exact rate at which your performance increases with gear will vary by spec (some specs scale better than others), but a good estimate might be some ~1.3-1.7% improvement for every 1 average ilvl increase (compounding). In other words, increasing your average ilvl by 8 points is probably worth some ~10.9% to ~14.4% improvement in performance for most specs.

    * EDIT: And all of the above assumes constant fight length. Since boss HP/damage is only going up by 8% while DPS is going up by ~10-15%, fights will be shorter, which will lead to better uptime on heroism/bloodlust + many dps cooldowns.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-07-03 at 12:10 AM.

  7. #167

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Deredere View Post
    Following this strategy, do you kill the golems on the tanks or do you leave them up the whole fight?
    Already explained this on an earlier post but once again, MT kills 1x golem at the pull since he should pretty much get insta vengeance capped. 3x Golems + Boss is way way way to spiky we found. 2x golems + boss can still be a little spiky here and there but it really helps lower the DPS requirement. Leave the rest of the golems up and let them wail on your tank for the duration of the fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SantaMaria View Post
    Going to give this a go for our progress kill and was looking for some advice. Planning 1-2-7 but may do 2-2 or 1-3 in terms of tanks / healers.

    Tank will be a prot paladin (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yblonde/simple), and I had a couple of questions regarding glyphs/cooldowns and priorities throughout the fight. Please keep in mind that my rotation is not 100% perfect so my SOTR uptime is often lower than it should be.

    Fight specific
    1 - Looks like 3 adds at the start is the way to go + boss. How much damage reduction is needed here. Is 50% at a time enough or do I need to be stacking Shieldwall + active mitigation (another 50%) to survive?

    2 - Are killing the adds the priority or can we chain cooldowns for ~1minute to keep very high vengeance for this whole period (ie HA > shield wall > DP+AD > externals) while adds are "passively killed"?

    3 - Did you find the tanks killed the adds, or was it mainly dotters who got higher single target DPS from multidotting (Lock/boomkin/SP)?

    4 - No magic damage on tank apart from the Jolt, right (avoid the massives/anima font)?


    Paladin Specific

    1 - Holy Avenger or DP. I'm worried that I may not get back to back DP procs at the start and SOTR may fall off leading to stupid deaths early on, rather than a little bit lower SOTR uptime at the end of the fight without too much tank damage.

    2 - Does unglyphed AS hit the boss plus the adds? Or is it better to glyph it for extra boss damage and use cons/HoTR plus dotters to kill adds on the tank.

    3 - was planning to have a few sets of cooldowns to be able to tank adds for a while, but do they hit so hard that we need to stack cooldowns (some logs have nearly everything popped together at the start)?

    Thanks for any help
    We 1 tank 2 healed pretty easily. Our protadin constantly got globaled which resulted in about 75% of our wipes. First off Holy Avenger is a must. You literally need to blow every single defensive you have at the pull as you will be taking around 1.5 million DPS until first golem is dead, so yes to answer your question pop every CD that you have and any external that you can get, the damage at the pull is no joke and is absolutely insane. Not sure what healers you have but we had a Disc + Mistweaver. Cocoon + Pain Sup @ the pull + Holy Avenger + AD + Unglyphed DP, followed by GoTK after pain sup wore off and he would still sometimes die. After the first golem is dead the damage is extremely manageable. You will be healing your self back up so quick + having massive Sacred Shield absorbs that it doesn't even matter if your CD-less. You + RDPS should mark/kill 1x golem @ the pull. RDPS should only DoT it and you should focus on killing it, should only take a few seconds for it to die.

    For Glyphs our Protadin used AS + BH + Focused Wrath. Focused Wrath is normally an extremely useless glyph but for some reason unglyphed holy wrath would constantly pull adds of off our healers which caused quite a few instant wipes.

    No magic dmg apart from jolt as you mentioned, but be extremely careful with anima font and rings. If either hit you, you will more often then not, die. Our protadin would literally have 17k overkills from getting hit by anima font -.- the worst part is you can't really dodge font when your stuck in rings (which is where he would always get hit), so make sure the melee dps who is clearing does it immediately and clears the same orb/side every time as soon as it goes out.
    Last edited by Sting123; 2013-07-03 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #169
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Hi,

    we are currently trying the dark animus zerg tactic.
    We had a couple of good pulls, best was like 8% when he enraged.

    Our problem however seems to be our warlock. He just doesn't pull those damage numbers other warlocks do.

    Can you browse over his logs/armory and give me some feedback please.
    We really need to improve the warlock damage cause everybody else pretty much plays at their limits dps wise. Numbers looks fine for the rest afaik.

    He runs with ULVS (530 itemlevel).

    His Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...elira/advanced

    Our Logs:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...=10920&e=11069
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...=10441&e=10576
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...=12371&e=12526
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=9232&e=9376
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...=11859&e=12007

    Thanks alot guys!

    Greets
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Prot Paladin / Blood DK

    Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/plageriemu

    Battle Tag: Riemu#2789

  10. #170
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    Your Mages and Rogue is pretty low also, not just the Warlock. Obviously the Warlock can do better, but he's not the main reason you're not meeting the DPS check.

    The Warlock isn't making use of his UVLS crit trinket proc to spread crit dooms. His corruption and shadowflame uptimes seem very low also.

  11. #171
    Hi, our guild is going to try animus on sunday. I(brm monk) will be off tanking two adds but i have some question about it.
    Do Both adds have to be linked? And second, do they have to attack me from behind in order to give me more vengeance, or just at the side(im a bit scared cause keg smash can hit both)
    Sorry for my english and thanks for the help =)

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Krige View Post
    Hi, our guild is going to try animus on sunday. I(brm monk) will be off tanking two adds but i have some question about it.
    Do Both adds have to be linked? And second, do they have to attack me from behind in order to give me more vengeance, or just at the side(im a bit scared cause keg smash can hit both)
    Sorry for my english and thanks for the help =)
    You should have them in front of you, you don't get less vengeance when you avoid an attack. Also they are unlikely to die to kegsmash since the take significantly less AoE damage.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Killuha View Post
    You should have them in front of you, you don't get less vengeance when you avoid an attack. Also they are unlikely to die to kegsmash since the take significantly less AoE damage.
    Ok, we will see tomorrow, thanks you so much for the help mate, really apreciate it

  14. #174
    We started out trying to do this, both 1-3 and 2-2 (Though 2-2 for WAY less attempts, I think if we had persevered we may have done it with 2-2).

    Ultimately, we just couldn't make it work, entirely due to survivability issues. We had more than a few attempts look really good for a while but ultimately our prot pally was getting gibbed too often. It felt kind of pointless bashing our heads against the wall with the zerg when we could just spend time learning it the "right" way so we'll probably not try any more of the zerg. Just too little signs of progress, seems very "all or nothing".

  15. #175
    Why would you use 2 tanks for this? 1 tank, 2 healers. Maybe 1 healer.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Why would you use 2 tanks for this? 1 tank, 2 healers. Maybe 1 healer.
    because a good tank, with 2-3 adds on him all fight does WAY more than a dps.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphenz View Post
    because a good tank, with 2-3 adds on him all fight does WAY more than a dps.
    He also requires healing. (very heavy healing with 3 adds) Better to drop to one healer and get one more dps. Thats how we're planning it for our sub 1:50 kill anyway.

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