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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    Here is the WoL parse of our last Council of Elders 25m hc kill. Guess what world rank I got as a frost DK, solely by looking at this (every bossmob was in cleave range all the time).

    More than the fact that frost stinks overall, the thing that bothers me the most is the blatant superiority of ranged in every aspect of this game, and Blizzards continuing bias towards them. They claim they don't want to hamstring themselves in the encounter design area by "forcing" fights that are good for melee, but when was the last time there was a fight where ranged were forced to move consistently (and when ranged actually lost DPS when moving the way we do when away from target)? When was the last time there was a raid wide silence that forced ranged into melee range? Every single tier there seems to be a fight(s) that punish melee, yet rarely are there fights that severely punish ranged. On top of that, there are often mechanics that require a ranged DPS to deal with, which indirectly punishes melee be limiting the number of raid spots.

  2. #102
    I can understand it sucks being 1st worlwide within frost DKs and being an average dps in raid but sincerly someone must be an average dps.
    Average dps is a not the issue. The span between the classes is way too large. You give the best possible gameplay but it ends up in 65% of the damage that you could do if you had played another class.
    Last edited by Thyr; 2013-06-20 at 12:49 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    More than the fact that frost stinks overall, the thing that bothers me the most is the blatant superiority of ranged in every aspect of this game, and Blizzards continuing bias towards them. They claim they don't want to hamstring themselves in the encounter design area by "forcing" fights that are good for melee, but when was the last time there was a fight where ranged were forced to move consistently (and when ranged actually lost DPS when moving the way we do when away from target)? When was the last time there was a raid wide silence that forced ranged into melee range? Every single tier there seems to be a fight(s) that punish melee, yet rarely are there fights that severely punish ranged. On top of that, there are often mechanics that require a ranged DPS to deal with, which indirectly punishes melee be limiting the number of raid spots.
    Agreed, but there are a number of encounters where ranged have to deal with abilities that melee simply don't.

    Focussed lightning on Jin'rokh
    Ranged players get the pink dinos attacking them first on Horridon
    Tortos requires a fair bit of movement/avoidance which plays to melee's strengths
    Durumu's maze is a plus for melee
    Violent gale winds on Lei Shen.

    Don't get me wrong, I do agree that a lot of encounters play to the strengths of a ranged char, that's just the way it is but I do think Blizzard are doing a far better job nowadays in terms of the "take the player, not the class" ethos.
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  4. #104
    The Patient Mizuisha's Avatar
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    Rofl is my only response.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    Here is the WoL parse of our last Council of Elders 25m hc kill. Guess what world rank I got as a frost DK, solely by looking at this (every bossmob was in cleave range all the time).
    If there's substantial cleaving going on, then showing the overall DPS is extremely biased; not every class is equal at AoE.

    Damage by actor is much better.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    If there's substantial cleaving going on, then showing the overall DPS is extremely biased; not every class is equal at AoE.

    Damage by actor is much better.
    It's council. the nature of the fight is to cleave a lot.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    It's council. the nature of the fight is to cleave a lot.
    And? This doesn't change the fact that not all classes have equal cleave/AoE capability (much more deviation than ST). Showing overall damage dealt is heavily skewing the results, and to use those results to assert the position of Frost DKs is even more misleading. Even showing damage by actor is still skewing results, but it's at least less skewed.
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  8. #108
    I don't get how damage by actor will change the numbers at all.
    DKs are generally viewed as a good cleave class too.

  9. #109
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    You're comparing a fight with 4 targets who can be continually multidotted to a spec which is good for semi-burst AoE. Multidotting=/=AoE or cleave. That's like comparing a warriors burst AoE to a rogues 2 target cleave. It just doesn't work.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    And? This doesn't change the fact that not all classes have equal cleave/AoE capability (much more deviation than ST). Showing overall damage dealt is heavily skewing the results, and to use those results to assert the position of Frost DKs is even more misleading. Even showing damage by actor is still skewing results, but it's at least less skewed.
    Well, DW frost DKs - on blizz paper - should have pretty good cleave. BUT! Aside of fight mechanics, he did a world rank 1 dps on that fight, without any wol abusing, and still, his DPS was medicore in the raid. Frustrating thing.
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  11. #111
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalamona View Post
    Well, DW frost DKs - on blizz paper - should have pretty good cleave. BUT! Aside of fight mechanics, he did a world rank 1 dps on that fight, without any wol abusing, and still, his DPS was medicore in the raid. Frustrating thing.
    On a fight that favors multidotters. Is that so weird? If you had a fight with massive AoE every 90 seconds that only lasted 8 seconds warriors would do great on it. This fight favors multidotters. It's a bad example.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    On a fight that favors multidotters. Is that so weird? If you had a fight with massive AoE every 90 seconds that only lasted 8 seconds warriors would do great on it. This fight favors multidotters. It's a bad example.
    Hmm... Sounds like Lei Shen, but ranked warriors are quite scarce there... Youre wrong.
    Cleave used to be frost DKs niche, but currently every ranged and their mother has dots which proc stuff or something as awesome as that. Instead of buffing DKs, could they set a limit to those procs off dots to not to scale dps in such a monstroys way compared to proper cleaving classes.

  13. #113
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Problim View Post
    Hmm... Sounds like Lei Shen, but ranked warriors are quite scarce there... Youre wrong.
    Cleave used to be frost DKs niche, but currently every ranged and their mother has dots which proc stuff or something as awesome as that. Instead of buffing DKs, could they set a limit to those procs off dots to not to scale dps in such a monstroys way compared to proper cleaving classes.
    Nah, Lei Shin isn't a good comparison either. Tortos with BS on a 60 second CD would be a good one (or if bats came every 90 seconds.)

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Nah, Lei Shin isn't a good comparison either. Tortos with BS on a 60 second CD would be a good one (or if bats came every 90 seconds.)
    They spawn every 45 so that's close enough (you know because 2x45 = 90)
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    They spawn every 45 so that's close enough (you know because 2x45 = 90)
    Sigh. The specific example was to show that if a fight favors a class for some reason, they will obviously do more damage. Being able to bladestorm every OTHER set of adds isn't good enough, hence why the analogy is flawed.

    Take a fight like Garalon before they changed how damage modifiers interacted with SS/BF for arms/rogues. It favored those classes because they were doing 300% damage instead of 250% (200%+(50% of 200%)) instead of 200%+(50% of 100%)).

    My point being, don't compare fights that heavily favor one class, spec, or strength to another who isn't strong on that front. It's flawed.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-06-21 at 12:12 AM.

  16. #116
    Last time DKs were top of the food chain? T11 release unholy prior to the 4.0.6 nerfs. Remember Heroic Halfus?

  17. #117
    I remember FL, with us cleaving on Beth(in 25man solo-standing lineup FDK was beating all, before ppl were getting legendaries....
    ....even after, Ragnaros heroic was a good representation of how viable and important to have DK on single target and cleaving

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    On a fight that favors multidotters. Is that so weird? If you had a fight with massive AoE every 90 seconds that only lasted 8 seconds warriors would do great on it. This fight favors multidotters. It's a bad example.
    Well, aside from the multidotting shaman you are right - i still think, its frustrating - but right here come the other problem: encounter mechanics and itemization: none of that supports frost DKs in thins tier (or melee generally).
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  19. #119
    The Patient Nedda's Avatar
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    Council was definitely not the best example to show my point, here comes the parse for Iron Qon as it's as close to patchwerk as it gets this tier for me (considering our tactic for Jin'rokh).



    I got ranked world #11 on this btw, Guba was world #4, the rest got #20ish and above. I will definitely stay DW Frost as long as I can outplay the weaknesses of the spec because I simply love the "machine gun style". Another aspect is that I will remain almost the only one in our raid who needs 1h str weapons, which is very important at the start of a new tier. I just got my first 541 weapon this ID and it was the first to drop in our raid, despite our progress from the very beginning. What bothers me after all though is that after 4 years of playing Frost DK at skill cap this is the first tier where I was almost (!) forced to go unholy just because the spec sucks THIS much in comparison to unholy, let alone other classes.

    /discuss

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    Council was definitely not the best example to show my point, here comes the parse for Iron Qon as it's as close to patchwerk as it gets this tier for me (considering our tactic for Jin'rokh).

    I got ranked world #11 on this btw, Guba was world #4, the rest got #20ish and above. I will definitely stay DW Frost as long as I can outplay the weaknesses of the spec because I simply love the "machine gun style". Another aspect is that I will remain almost the only one in our raid who needs 1h str weapons, which is very important at the start of a new tier. I just got my first 541 weapon this ID and it was the first to drop in our raid, despite our progress from the very beginning. What bothers me after all though is that after 4 years of playing Frost DK at skill cap this is the first tier where I was almost (!) forced to go unholy just because the spec sucks THIS much in comparison to unholy, let alone other classes.

    /discuss
    I'm not sure how people are STILL arguing against this. Nedda is 1000000% right. I've been saying this since the start of the Tier but most of the talking heads here keep saying "oh Frost is fine" and "It is only skewed because ALL the good players are playing Unholy" which is the complete and total opposite from the truth it literally BOILS MY BLOOD when they say that garbage. They even have devs believing that crap (or is it the other way around?).

    Frost doesn't have a scaling problem either. Hah.
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