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  1. #1

    Optimal elemental opener

    I've been playing around on my elemental alt a bit, and was wondering what the perfect opener would be for 100% min/maxing.

    This is what I'm thinking:

    3s left on countdown:
    1) Prepot
    2) Fire elemental

    2s left on countdown
    3) pre-casted Elemental blast

    Pull:
    4) bloodlust instant as soon as EB lands
    5) Flameshock
    6) Lava burst
    7) Stormlash totem
    8) Ascendance + Lava Burst /repeat

    Is there anything I could change?
    Im thinking you definitely want bloodlust before the flameshock right? so it becomes hasted. And Stormlash before Ascendance to it doesnt take up a global while ascendance is running.

    Was thinking about wether to stormlash first, or lava burst first. If I stormlash first, the lavaburst will benefit. But if you do lava burst first, you will have stormlash for longer during ascendance. I guess it comes down to the same thing; an extra stormlashed lava burst.

    Also do I need to pot before fire elemental so it benefits? or can I just fire ele first and then pot before the elemental blast instead?

    Is it a dps increase to use elemental blast during ascendance for the mastery buff?

    Any input is appreciated, try be as specific as possible, also if you have synapse springs/berserking racials to fit in your sequence
    Last edited by Mew; 2013-05-30 at 09:33 AM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Axylum's Avatar
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    I use ascendance in a macro with stormlash totem for optimal dps. But rather than that I almost use the same rotation as you. Not sure about EB is it more beneficial than PE?

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Ismaire's Avatar
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    There is no reason to use your pot with FET. It adapts dynamically whenver your stats change. (It's not a dot.)

    Thus use your pot right before precasting.

    There is also a comment from Binkenstein about using Unleash Flame (Element) in the moment of the pull due to the flight time of EB. You want your 30% haste from the meta when you cast flame shock (usually means +3 ticks) and this makes it way easier.

    Additionally you don't want to use BL/Hero in your opener for most (heroic) raid encounters.
    Faraleya, Orc, Shaman, attuned, EU-Blackrock, 13/13 HC, 10 man raiding

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Axylum View Post
    I use ascendance in a macro with stormlash totem for optimal dps. But rather than that I almost use the same rotation as you. Not sure about EB is it more beneficial than PE?
    Thats pretty fight dependent.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Axylum View Post
    I use ascendance in a macro with stormlash totem for optimal dps. But rather than that I almost use the same rotation as you. Not sure about EB is it more beneficial than PE?
    Yeah, don't do that. You'll be wasting 1 second of ascendance.

    OP: Don't use fire elemental before pulling has occured, it should be used inside the rotation before ascendance but after the first hit.
    I currently do: LB>Unleash elements>Fire elemental>Flame shock>Lava burst>Elemental blast>(someone else is using stormlash here)>Ascendance spam
    I believe myself that it's one of the most powerfull ones, lots of discussion has occured over the LB in start, you're free to decide yourself there.

  6. #6
    ~2 seconds
    - Pre-pot
    - Cast EB

    On Pull
    - Fire Ele
    - Flame Shock
    - LvB
    - ST
    - Ascendance

    Make sure you are spamming the heck out of Fire Ele so that if you are actually the person that pulls with your flying EB that Fire Ele is going off ASAP

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    Yeah, don't do that. You'll be wasting 1 second of ascendance.

    OP: Don't use fire elemental before pulling has occured, it should be used inside the rotation before ascendance but after the first hit.
    How come? I guess it's a matter of not delaying ascendance by a GCD (possibly have procs run out), but instead losing 2 seconds of of fire ele damage.

    I currently do: LB>Unleash elements>Fire elemental>Flame shock>Lava burst>Elemental blast>(someone else is using stormlash here)>Ascendance spam
    I believe myself that it's one of the most powerfull ones, lots of discussion has occured over the LB in start, you're free to decide yourself there.
    I guess it makes sense to open with lightning bolt, and the use ele blast right before your ascendance so you get the mastery buff up before lava spam. I'm gonna try that out.

  8. #8
    There's also the question of whether dropping Fire Elemental early is a good way to go.

    Generally speaking, I'll go like this (and not use raid cooldowns)

    Have Searing Totem down

    1 second before pull
    pot
    cast EB

    Follow that up with UE for the meta proc, FS, LvB and then use FE before hitting Ascendance. The UE part is important so you've got your meta proc up for FS, both for the extra 3 ticks and the higher frequency of surge chances. You can delay the FE use because while, technically speaking, it deals more damage compared with the time you put into it, delaying it until you're in combat & have a few other spells out has very little impact on its damage contribution, plus avoids wasting that initial pre-fight time. It's the same principle behind why Searing is only higher than Lightning Bolt in priority, while dealing more damage per GCD than FS or LvB.
    Sentry Totem: The new community news and advice site!

  9. #9
    only reason i would want to drop FE before i cast my spells is because dropping it during meta proc is a wasted GCD during ascendance, imo

    so my order would go FE. prepot right as GCD ends, cast EB, then EU, then FS, the LvB then asc

  10. #10
    PE is better on most fights this tier IF you have the Legendary Meta. With this being said, the best opener (ive hit 500k dps off the pull /w lust in 530ilvl gear) is:
    >Fire elem + prepot (since pot isnt on GCD) at ~3 secs from pull
    >Lightning bolt at ~2 secs or less from pull (will hit boss when the fight starts; should proc all trinkets + meta)
    >Flameshock
    >Lust if used at the start of the fight
    >1 Lava burst
    >Macro for Stormlash + Ascendance (GCD will reset by the time you start casting your next lava burst)
    >Lava burst spam and hope for instant procs

    My trinkets are: Thunderforged Wushoolay's (double upgraded, now ilvl 536) + Cha-ye's (normal; double upgraded to ilvl 530)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Armmageddon View Post
    PE is better on most fights this tier IF you have the Legendary Meta. With this being said, the best opener (ive hit 500k dps off the pull /w lust in 530ilvl gear) is:
    >Fire elem + prepot (since pot isnt on GCD) at ~3 secs from pull
    >Lightning bolt at ~2 secs or less from pull (will hit boss when the fight starts; should proc all trinkets + meta)
    >Flameshock
    >Lust if used at the start of the fight
    >1 Lava burst
    >Macro for Stormlash + Ascendance (GCD will reset by the time you start casting your next lava burst)
    >Lava burst spam and hope for instant procs

    My trinkets are: Thunderforged Wushoolay's (double upgraded, now ilvl 536) + Cha-ye's (normal; double upgraded to ilvl 530)
    I really don't understand your opening, and whatever your 2 first seconds of burst is really doesn't matter.
    First of all: you miss 3 seconds of your fire elemental doing that, that's a dps loss in the end.
    Second: Bloodlust after the flameshock? Why wouldn't you bloodlust before you apply it?
    Third: The first LB takes quite a while to reach the target, you should probably add a Unleash elements or something there.
    Fourth: By macroing stormlash+Ascendance you miss the first lavaburst of your ascendance, resulting in a dps loss.

    Your opener isn't even close to optimal, I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by orderschvank View Post
    only reason i would want to drop FE before i cast my spells is because dropping it during meta proc is a wasted GCD during ascendance, imo

    so my order would go FE. prepot right as GCD ends, cast EB, then EU, then FS, the LvB then asc
    Who said you should drop it during ascendance? Or do you mean delaying ascendance by 1 second is a dps loss? Highly doubt that unless you have Cha-ye + the valor trinket, then it may be a tiny chance that you're right.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    First of all: you miss 3 seconds of your fire elemental doing that, that's a dps loss in the end.
    Second: Bloodlust after the flameshock? Why wouldn't you bloodlust before you apply it?
    Third: The first LB takes quite a while to reach the target, you should probably add a Unleash elements or something there.
    Fourth: By macroing stormlash+Ascendance you miss the first lavaburst of your ascendance, resulting in a dps loss.

    Your opener isn't even close to optimal, I'm sorry.
    Clearly you don't understand GCD usage.

    First, the Fire Elemental has to run to the target to start dpsing. He will reach the target pretty much around the time your lightning bolt hits, therefore he'll get all the benefits from procs off his first attack.

    Secondly, I understand that I'll get 1 tic less from my flame shock but refreshing it before Lust falls off will compenstate a bit for that.

    And finally, well you dont seem to understand that lava burst is still on CD when I use Ascendance. Also, dropping a Stormlash triggers the GCD, but using ascendance itself doesnt.. whether you macro Stormlash to Ascendance or not, you still have to wait for your GCD to refresh. In both cases you cant use Lava Burst before the GCD refreshes, therefore no loss of a lava burst overall.

    Honestly, I'm pretty sure that you dont have much progression on your shaman, because you don't seem to know much about the usage of flame shock either. Shamans stack haste, therefore you're always gonna hit your Flame shock's haste breakpoint no matter what. You're already (supposedly) getting 13 tics of it before it runs out, with Lust it'll be 14 tics since you're above your breakpoint. If you know how to play Ele, you should kow that Flame Shock must never fall off, which means that it should be refreshed before it falls. Therefore, you probably wont even use that extra tic in the end..

    A link to your character would be nice, I'm curious to see your stats and stuff. apparently I can't link mine yet, I haven't been posting enough on the forums or whatever.

    P.S.: Unleash Elements is a complete waste of a GCD this tier.. It shouldn't even be on your bars imo.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Armmageddon View Post
    Clearly you don't understand GCD usage.

    Secondly, I understand that I'll get 1 tic less from my flame shock but refreshing it before Lust falls off will compenstate a bit for that.
    You should always refresh during lust/heroism, even if you FS after lust/heroism - FS = 30 sec, Lust = 40 sec. So what are you gaining? Because at the moment, you are only loosing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armmageddon View Post

    And finally, well you dont seem to understand that lava burst is still on CD when I use Ascendance. Also, dropping a Stormlash triggers the GCD, but using ascendance itself doesnt.. whether you macro Stormlash to Ascendance or not, you still have to wait for your GCD to refresh. In both cases you cant use Lava Burst before the GCD refreshes, therefore no loss of a lava burst overall.
    So, your LvB is on CD, you use Ascendance and Ascendance resets LvB CD and you could simply start to cast LvB - but you waste your first second of Ascendance for Stormlash, because...why?

    Maybe I am also just to stupid - enlighten me please.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Xentres View Post
    So, your LvB is on CD, you use Ascendance and Ascendance resets LvB CD and you could simply start to cast LvB - but you waste your first second of Ascendance for Stormlash, because...why?
    I just tried it out, and you save maybe 0.5s of Ascendance if you dont macro the two together. 0.5s is not enough time to cast two LvB, therefore when you macro the two together you only gain hand movement (you press one keybind in a 1 second time frame instead of 2 buttons in that same 1 second time frame).

    The first second of Ascendance is only "not wasted" if you dont use Stormlash at all on the pull.

    Also, keep in mind that clicking Ascendance does not reset the GCD of LvB, only LvB's internal CD.

  15. #15
    stormlash + ascendance together is pure fail, you can write a 700 page blog about it, you're still losing out not casting lava burst the instant you pop it. luckily for me i run 25man and my stormlash is usually 3rd or 4th and i'm well finished with ascendance.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Armmageddon View Post
    Clearly you don't understand GCD usage.

    First, the Fire Elemental has to run to the target to start dpsing. He will reach the target pretty much around the time your lightning bolt hits, therefore he'll get all the benefits from procs off his first attack.

    Secondly, I understand that I'll get 1 tic less from my flame shock but refreshing it before Lust falls off will compenstate a bit for that.

    And finally, well you dont seem to understand that lava burst is still on CD when I use Ascendance. Also, dropping a Stormlash triggers the GCD, but using ascendance itself doesnt.. whether you macro Stormlash to Ascendance or not, you still have to wait for your GCD to refresh. In both cases you cant use Lava Burst before the GCD refreshes, therefore no loss of a lava burst overall.

    Honestly, I'm pretty sure that you dont have much progression on your shaman, because you don't seem to know much about the usage of flame shock either. Shamans stack haste, therefore you're always gonna hit your Flame shock's haste breakpoint no matter what. You're already (supposedly) getting 13 tics of it before it runs out, with Lust it'll be 14 tics since you're above your breakpoint. If you know how to play Ele, you should kow that Flame Shock must never fall off, which means that it should be refreshed before it falls. Therefore, you probably wont even use that extra tic in the end..

    A link to your character would be nice, I'm curious to see your stats and stuff. apparently I can't link mine yet, I haven't been posting enough on the forums or whatever.

    P.S.: Unleash Elements is a complete waste of a GCD this tier.. It shouldn't even be on your bars imo.
    Don't bring progression into theory discussion, it's a invalid discussion technique and doesn't prove any of the points in the thread. Having good progress doesn't automatically make you good. I'm the pretty much the only person named Telefonorm, finding me shouldn't have been that hard. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...onorm/advanced So what's your legendary progression that makes you superior? Anyways, back to the discussion.

    Let's start from the bottom. Unleash Elements are indeed quite useless, except when it comes to the first burst, this is because you want your flameshock to get the 30% extra haste benefit from your meta gem, which almost always procs off the first hit. UE hits the target directly, where LB doesn't, so by using UE you almost always get a buffed flameshock, where you never get it using your opener.

    You do understand how extra ticks function, right? If you have 11 ticks, and you refresh it at last tick, the last tick gets extended to your new flame shock, this was changed quite a while ago for all the dot effects in the game pretty much. So i really don't understand your example of not "using" the last tic. You'll always use the extra ticks, as long as you don't refresh it too early (more then ~3 seconds before it falls off).

    The Ascendance macro: Your lavaburst doesn't have a GCD, your character got a GCD, which gets triggered by casting most of your spells, ascendance does not trigger a GCD however, which is why you should macro it into your lava burst. Ascendance does not trigger while mid-cast of a spell either. Your GCD from your last Lava burst will have reset (or have 0.1 seconds left) when you pop ascendance, if you decide to use stormlash there, you'll have to wait an extra 1 second before starting your burst. This 1 second will result in lower dps, an easy way to combat this is to just: Stormlash>Lava burst>ascendance macro.

    We are talking about an OPTIMAL opener here, loosing a tick of your flame shock will almost always be a dps loss, a very tiny of course, but still doesn't justify it when better openers exist.

    Fire elemental:
    Try dropping your fire elemental at a dummy and doing nothing, you'll see that the fire elemental doesn't attack. Now try casting a Lightning bolt, your fire elemental won't react until your LB cast is finished. This means that your fire elemental will stand still doing nothing for 2 seconds if you pop it before the fight, which results in a dps loss in the end. Once again, you may see a gain in the first 20 seconds, as it got a 100% uptime there, but your fire elemental will generally deal less total damage.

    P.S.: Elemental blast sims higher on fights will little movement, no matter if you have the legendary meta gem or not.

  17. #17
    Sounds about right to me.

  18. #18
    Pre pot 2 seconders before the pull
    lightning bolt / elemental blast
    fire elemental and lust
    flame shock
    stormlash totem
    Any racials/tinkers/on use trinkets you may have.
    lava burst
    -lava surge proc if any
    ascendance

    First lightning bolt reaches the target just before flame shock, procing the meta for it, also making fire ele attack right away.
    I'd imagine at 15k haste you'd have to stand at about 37-38 yards to pull it off, but It works just fine for me with 13k haste at max range, but it shouldn't be a problem since due to elementals closer you are to boss the better.
    Last edited by Ellger; 2013-06-03 at 01:44 PM.

  19. #19
    Pre pot 2 seconders before the pull
    blood lust
    fire elemental
    flame shock
    lava burst
    elemental blast
    stormlash totem
    Any racials/tinkers/on use trinkets you may have.
    -lava surge proc if any
    ascendance
    i prefer this one so i can use the EB proc with ascendance

  20. #20
    With EB I'm doing (using Wooshlays and Hydra), assuming no hero on pull

    -2.5 Seconds
    Fire Ele
    Pot

    -1 Sec
    Lightning bolt
    Stormlash
    Flame Shock
    UE
    LvB
    EB
    Ascendandce

    Reason I put Stormlash so early is because My LMG always procs off the first thing I cast, in this case, LB. The flight time of LB give me 1 global before I get the 30% Haste, so I use Stormlash to line that up. If Stormlash and LMG are lined up like this, you're guaranteed the 30% for the entire duration of Stormlash, increasing how much you utilize it.
    FS is the first the that I cast with the legendary meta. I use UE now so that my Hydra will have time to proc from FS's first tic before LvB and EB to both gain benefit from it. Normally, My wooshlays will proc off of lightning bolt at the very beginning, the first 4 to 5 seconds are used for FS, UE, LvB, then EB. Now when I enter Ascendance, my Ascendance gets the last 15 seconds of Wooshlays , the most powerful it can get, and all of Hydra's proc, as its also 20 seconds, and all of EB, assuming no Surge procs.

    TLR, my methods gets the most out EB, my trinkets, and my stormlash that I use. The only variance I have is whether or not LMG procs again during Ascendance giving Ascendance full haste as well, which I've seen is about 50% to 75% of the time. I can't really cater to this, as it would mean I wouldn't cast EB or SL at all until after Ascendance.
    Last edited by Zixan; 2013-06-06 at 08:40 PM.

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