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  1. #881
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    People respond to your claim this way because it implies that we could exist in a culture where the cause of the harm didn't exist, and because of that the action would be acceptable. It appears to diminish the validity of their feelings, even if you express the opposite.

    There is no way to have a respectful society where rape is considered unobjectionable, and because of this, your position is offensive.
    Thank you. I couldn't come up with the words to articulate that.
    Tiriél US-Stormrage

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  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    No one denies that making someone do something they do not want to do is upsetting to some degree to the person. The degree to which that person gets upset by various acts of dominance is what is influenced heavily by societal factors. If you forced me to eat a pork chop, I'd be pretty annoyed, although I don't think I'd walk away with too many mental scars. Do the same to a muslim, for whom pork is forbidden, and you have someone that will be very deeply disturbed.
    i have a feeling if someone attacked you, held you down and force fed you anything, even prying your jaws open, you'd be more than "a little annoyed".

    but you are implicitly stating that women want to be raped (which would be an oxymoron btw) in much the same way as you want to eat a porkchop, and that the only reason they wouldnt want it is because they are taught not to (like not eating certain foods).

  3. #883
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    People respond to your claim this way because it implies that we could exist in a culture where the cause of the harm didn't exist, and because of that the action would be acceptable.
    The point to be noted, that I guess I should've taken greater pains to concretely establish earlier on, is that if our culture results in harm of one sort or the other, then it shouldn't be done away with just to prevent those harms.

    My sense of ownership of my house and my various properties is a social construct. Laws, and legal documents all make them mine. If someone stole something of mine, I would feel wronged, because of that very sense of ownership. You wouldn't deny this, would you? Yet, you also wouldn't agree that I were suggesting we do away with the concept of ownership just so people can't be victims of theft anymore.

    To quote myself from a page ago, on the reasons why rape is as disturbing as it is, "Because it would be a violation of your sexual sovereignty. Your sense of dignity and modesty are thrown to the wayside and trod on repeatedly. Your autonomy over your body is compromised in a way that leaves you shaken."
    Likewise, I am in no way suggesting that society be regressed to a point where such concepts as bodily-autonomy and sexual sovereignty do no exist, just so they can't be violated.

    Following that trail of non-logic to read something into my argument, that I expressly said was not the case, is akin to saying something ridiculous along the lines of 'That guy said pedophilia involves children. He must be implying society shouldn't have babies anymore.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    There is no way to have a respectful society where rape is considered unobjectionable
    You will never see me disagree with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    your position is offensive.
    Really? I think I have the same position on rape as most people as far as its criminal nature is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Making a Muslim eat a pork chop is the same as being raped.

    Okay.
    I know many Muslims that would have you believe it's worse.
    Last edited by Velaniz; 2013-06-18 at 07:15 AM.

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Thank you. I couldn't come up with the words to articulate that.
    Happy to assist.

  5. #885
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    I know many Muslims that would have you believe it's worse.
    Well, then I can assure you they've never been raped.
    Last edited by TirielWoW; 2013-06-18 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Because even if someone is dumb, I should be polite.
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  6. #886
    Stop using the Islam argument about porkchops.

    It's incredibly silly.

    If a Muslim accidentally eats pork and feels like he did something wrong there are steps he can take to alleviate his guilt built into the religion.

    That's not apples and oranges you're comparing when you compare rape to a Muslim eating a bite of pork. It's comparing apples and quasars.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    comparing apples and quasars.
    Both can appear round.

  8. #888
    Everyone seems eager to find me revolting in one way or another, so I'll give you more reasons to.

    I think that burglary is a crime because people are entitled to ownerships of property. I must be suggesting that no one should own anything. There you go, hate away.

    I also think spousal cheating is hurtful only because of the nature of the institution of marriage that we've created. I must be a big time polygamy advocate, right? Please don't let me get away easy.

  9. #889
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    Everyone seems eager to find me revolting in one way or another, so I'll give you more reasons to.

    I think that burglary is a crime because people are entitled to ownerships of property. I must be suggesting that no one should own anything. There you go, hate away.

    I also think spousal cheating is hurtful only because of the nature of the institution of marriage that we've created. I must be a big time polygamy advocate, right? Please don't let me get away easy.
    Bless your heart. :-\ You are so special.

    I could poke holes in your logic, but it's just not worth it.
    Tiriél US-Stormrage

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  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Both can appear round.
    -----> My point

    ---> Your head

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    Stop using the Islam argument about porkchops.

    It's incredibly silly.

    If a Muslim accidentally eats pork and feels like he did something wrong there are steps he can take to alleviate his guilt built into the religion.

    That's not apples and oranges you're comparing when you compare rape to a Muslim eating a bite of pork. It's comparing apples and quasars.
    The purpose of the comparison was to highlight the effect of trauma of an act that varied with cultures. To that end, I believe the comparison worked.

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    .
    You must live in a world where people don't tell jokes, I am truly sorry.

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    You must live in a world where people don't tell jokes, I am truly sorry.
    Sorry, I missed the hidden non-written cues typed in invisible pixels.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 07:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    The purpose of the comparison was to highlight the effect of trauma of an act that varied with cultures. To that end, I believe the comparison worked.
    No, it doesn't work, one is accidentally breaking a proscription for which there are simple and easy remedies, the other is being assaulted and violated in nearly every way possible.

  14. #894
    Quote Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
    Really, what kind of sick mental arithmetic led you to say something as absolutely vile and inhuman as this? The harm of rape is the result of rapists attacking their victims, not the result of a culture that has deemed rape inexcusable. The answer to the harm of rape, therefore is to prevent rapes from happening, not to make rape acceptable in our culture. And you wonder why people find your posts revolting.
    That was an honest-to-god typo. Missed out the "n't" after "should".

  15. #895
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    The purpose of the comparison was to highlight the effect of trauma of an act that varied with cultures. To that end, I believe the comparison worked.
    No, it just made you look worse.
    Tiriél US-Stormrage

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  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    No, it just made you look worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post

    No, it doesn't work, one is accidentally breaking a proscription for which there are simple and easy remedies, the other is being assaulted and violated in nearly every way possible.
    You must not have the same interaction with devout muslims that I do. It doesn't surprise me you find this comparison erroneous.

  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Yes, but that's not the point. The point is the low amount of punishment. I mean, how is doing community service going to deter anyone, what will it actually 'teach' them?
    Pretty much nothing. Which is sad, since it's the worst kind of result this situation could have had.

    The girl will never get over this completely, is needless to say. And even to the extent that she may come to, some kind of, terms with it, she will do it regardless of her rapists' fate. Her struggle is sadly very personal, and she is the only one to be able to succeed in coming through it. Help will of course be invaluable, but merely help.

    They, on the other hand, are going to learn nothing. Most of the repercussions of their actions will come from social stigma, to which they will have no proper way to react. So either they will leave a miserable life, end their life, or react by becoming even worse. In all cases society becomes that much worse for this.

    And all the way, nothing will be done about their family situation, which should be the one to be thoroughly investigated. Because how can a child growing up in a caring family ever do something like that unless he/she is suffering from some kind of mental defect? Either they are all mentally defective, in which case they need help; or there is something quite wrong with their family situation. And community service won't change that.

    This seems to be one of the cases where the law is almost utterly useless, providing a formal service that is extremely detached from any practical or ethical value.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-06-18 at 07:26 AM.

  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    You must not have the same interaction with devout muslims that I do. It doesn't surprise me you find this comparison erroneous.
    Unless you're Muslim yourself, I assure you I have more experience with Islam. I have worked with Muslims, come from an area of the world with quite a few Muslims, and some of my nearest and dearest friends have been Muslim.

    Do you know terms like fiqh? Kufr? Iman? Madhhab? Have you studied Islamic history? Did you go to school and prepare for a career that involves knowledge of not just Islam but the political and cultural movements within the Islamic world like salafism?

    Maybe individual Muslims would be more aghast than others at accidentally consuming pork, and accidentally committing a sin.


    If one is forced because there is no other choice, neither craving nor transgressing, there is no sin on him. - Surah 2:173

    Neither craving nor transgressing, that includes accidentally consuming pork.

    Your comparison continues to ring hollow.
    Last edited by Stelio Kontos; 2013-06-18 at 07:30 AM.

  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    Unless you're Muslim yourself, I assure you I have more experience with Islam. I have worked with Muslims, come from an area of the world with quite a few Muslims, and some of my nearest and dearest friends have been Muslim.

    Do you know terms like fiqh? Kufr? Iman? Madhhab? Have you studied Islamic history? Did you go to school and prepare for a career that involves knowledge of not just Islam but the political and cultural movements within the Islamic world like salafism?

    Maybe individual Muslims would be more aghast than others at accidentally consuming pork, and accidentally committing a sin.


    If one is forced because there is no other choice, neither craving nor transgressing, there is no sin on him. - Surah 2:173

    Neither craving nor transgressing, that includes accidentally consuming pork.

    Your comparison continues to ring hollow.
    Well, I'm certainly not a Muslim myself. I just know some Muslims, that are so veritably disgusted by pork, that they would rather be raped than be made to eat pork. Their exact words, not mine.

  20. #900
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    The sentence seems unjust. That said, Sweeden has lower criminal statistics accross the board, lower sentence, prisons more focused on rehibilitation than punishement, and has a pretty decent recividism rate (I found around 35% compared with the US 51%). They also incarcerate 69 out of 100,000 versus US 689 out of 100,000. =
    Has anyone ever considered how many rapes go unreported? Bear in mind that rape is a crime in which the alleged victim is always treated like a criminal, and often the alleged rapist is treated like a victim. Why would someone want to put themselves through that, of having their character attacked by their community on top of having already been raped? For what? 100 hours of community service as a punishment?

    Why would someone want to put themselves through that, and to even have their accusations be validated, but then be told that they are only worth 100 hours of community service?

    Have you ever considered why rape victims are told that they're so brave for having come forward? Why should seeking justice be an act of courage?

    How many of you would volunteer yourself for the abuse that is to be expected with seeking justice, if you expected your assailant to receive 100 hours of community service?
    Last edited by AndaliteBandit; 2013-06-18 at 07:43 AM.

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