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  1. #901
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    The purpose of the comparison was to highlight the effect of trauma of an act that varied with cultures. To that end, I believe the comparison worked.
    No, it just made you look worse.
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  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    No, it just made you look worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post

    No, it doesn't work, one is accidentally breaking a proscription for which there are simple and easy remedies, the other is being assaulted and violated in nearly every way possible.
    You must not have the same interaction with devout muslims that I do. It doesn't surprise me you find this comparison erroneous.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Yes, but that's not the point. The point is the low amount of punishment. I mean, how is doing community service going to deter anyone, what will it actually 'teach' them?
    Pretty much nothing. Which is sad, since it's the worst kind of result this situation could have had.

    The girl will never get over this completely, is needless to say. And even to the extent that she may come to, some kind of, terms with it, she will do it regardless of her rapists' fate. Her struggle is sadly very personal, and she is the only one to be able to succeed in coming through it. Help will of course be invaluable, but merely help.

    They, on the other hand, are going to learn nothing. Most of the repercussions of their actions will come from social stigma, to which they will have no proper way to react. So either they will leave a miserable life, end their life, or react by becoming even worse. In all cases society becomes that much worse for this.

    And all the way, nothing will be done about their family situation, which should be the one to be thoroughly investigated. Because how can a child growing up in a caring family ever do something like that unless he/she is suffering from some kind of mental defect? Either they are all mentally defective, in which case they need help; or there is something quite wrong with their family situation. And community service won't change that.

    This seems to be one of the cases where the law is almost utterly useless, providing a formal service that is extremely detached from any practical or ethical value.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-06-18 at 07:26 AM.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    You must not have the same interaction with devout muslims that I do. It doesn't surprise me you find this comparison erroneous.
    Unless you're Muslim yourself, I assure you I have more experience with Islam. I have worked with Muslims, come from an area of the world with quite a few Muslims, and some of my nearest and dearest friends have been Muslim.

    Do you know terms like fiqh? Kufr? Iman? Madhhab? Have you studied Islamic history? Did you go to school and prepare for a career that involves knowledge of not just Islam but the political and cultural movements within the Islamic world like salafism?

    Maybe individual Muslims would be more aghast than others at accidentally consuming pork, and accidentally committing a sin.


    If one is forced because there is no other choice, neither craving nor transgressing, there is no sin on him. - Surah 2:173

    Neither craving nor transgressing, that includes accidentally consuming pork.

    Your comparison continues to ring hollow.
    Last edited by atsawin26; 2013-06-18 at 07:30 AM.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    Unless you're Muslim yourself, I assure you I have more experience with Islam. I have worked with Muslims, come from an area of the world with quite a few Muslims, and some of my nearest and dearest friends have been Muslim.

    Do you know terms like fiqh? Kufr? Iman? Madhhab? Have you studied Islamic history? Did you go to school and prepare for a career that involves knowledge of not just Islam but the political and cultural movements within the Islamic world like salafism?

    Maybe individual Muslims would be more aghast than others at accidentally consuming pork, and accidentally committing a sin.


    If one is forced because there is no other choice, neither craving nor transgressing, there is no sin on him. - Surah 2:173

    Neither craving nor transgressing, that includes accidentally consuming pork.

    Your comparison continues to ring hollow.
    Well, I'm certainly not a Muslim myself. I just know some Muslims, that are so veritably disgusted by pork, that they would rather be raped than be made to eat pork. Their exact words, not mine.

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    The sentence seems unjust. That said, Sweeden has lower criminal statistics accross the board, lower sentence, prisons more focused on rehibilitation than punishement, and has a pretty decent recividism rate (I found around 35% compared with the US 51%). They also incarcerate 69 out of 100,000 versus US 689 out of 100,000. =
    Has anyone ever considered how many rapes go unreported? Bear in mind that rape is a crime in which the alleged victim is always treated like a criminal, and often the alleged rapist is treated like a victim. Why would someone want to put themselves through that, of having their character attacked by their community on top of having already been raped? For what? 100 hours of community service as a punishment?

    Why would someone want to put themselves through that, and to even have their accusations be validated, but then be told that they are only worth 100 hours of community service?

    Have you ever considered why rape victims are told that they're so brave for having come forward? Why should seeking justice be an act of courage?

    How many of you would volunteer yourself for the abuse that is to be expected with seeking justice, if you expected your assailant to receive 100 hours of community service?
    Last edited by AndaliteBandit; 2013-06-18 at 07:43 AM.

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    Well, I'm certainly not a Muslim myself. I just know some Muslims, that are so veritably disgusted by pork, that they would rather be raped than be made to eat pork. Their exact words, not mine.
    Yes, of course your anecdotes of what "my Muslims acquaintances say" is a better source on accidentally eating pork than the Qu'ran itself.

    Stop with this feeble defense of an indefensible comparison.

  8. #908
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    Well, I'm certainly not a Muslim myself. I just know some Muslims, that are so veritably disgusted by pork, that they would rather be raped than be made to eat pork. Their exact words, not mine.
    And it's almost certain they've never actually been raped if they can say something like that.

    Which I honestly find hard to believe.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
    To all practical intents and purposes those are your own words.

    And again, if they ate pork by mistake they won't be disgusted by virtue of them chewing on pork. The disgust only comes from (probably a misguided) interpretation of scriptures once they are informed it's pork. Someone held down and gang raped is traumatized by virtue of heir bodily sovereignty being deprived, and won't possibly mistake it for consensual sex. It's a terrible analogy.
    I guess that what he's trying to argue is that if the culture is such as where women are raised not to believe they have any right to bodily sovereignty regarding sex, the emotional impact of rape is lessened.

    But not because culture makes it all better... but because it's a culture forcibly supresses the self-preservation drive on women! Which is pretty sick in itself.

  10. #910
    I'd rather not continue to discuss the validity of the details of my analogy in light of the grander scheme here, especially not when the point is so sorely missed. The point was to highlight how the same act can induce different levels of trauma depending on the standards of the culture one is in, which shouldn't so much require analogies to demonstrate as common sense and a basic understanding of the workings of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    I guess that what he's trying to argue is that if the culture is such as where women are raised not to believe they have any right to bodily sovereignty regarding sex, the emotional impact of rape is lessened.

    But not because culture makes it all better... but because it's a culture forcibly supresses the self-preservation drive on women! Which is pretty sick in itself.
    There really ought to be a prize for the millionth or so person to misinterpret what I said.

  11. #911
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    I'd rather not continue to discuss the validity of the details of my analogy in light of the grander scheme here, especially not when the point is so sorely missed. The point was to highlight how the same act can induce different levels of trauma depending on the standards of the culture one is in, which shouldn't so much require analogies to demonstrate as common sense and a basic understanding of the workings of society.
    If you think you're digging yourself out of the hole you dug, I'm sorry to inform you that you're just digging the hole ever deeper with every single post you make.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    If you think you're digging yourself out of the hole you dug, I'm sorry to inform you that you're just digging the hole ever deeper with every single post you make.
    I wish you'd elaborate a bit more rather than make assertions like that that leave me scratching my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
    As it is, the only basis for your claim that culture is the reason rape is traumatic, is still "because Velaniz says so".
    Read my posts starting from page 38.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
    I did. None of it contains a single valid reason. As I have stated earlier, you started from a false premise.
    What is my false premise? That the rights sexual-sovereignty and self-autonomy are social constructs? Or that Social Cognitions have the power to invoke a fear or trauma that isn't already deep-rooted in our psyche?

  14. #914
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    What is my false premise? That the rights sexual-sovereignty and self-autonomy are social constructs? Or that Social Cognitions have the power to invoke a fear or trauma that isn't already deep-rooted in our psyche?
    I dunno. She could be referring to how you decided that you lived 10,000+ years ago and know how society worked back then even though they left no written record and this shit isn't exactly recorded in the fossil record.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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  15. #915
    Boo Hoo, let me dial WHINE-1-1 and call you a wambulance.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    I dunno. She could be referring to how you decided that you lived 10,000+ years ago and know how society worked back then even though they left no written record and this shit isn't exactly recorded in the fossil record.
    That was a conjecture that was derived from the facts we have today.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 04:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Celinee View Post
    Boo Hoo, let me dial WHINE-1-1 and call you a wambulance.
    If that's directed at OP, then you must think the law handled the situation well? How is it you feel it was just, when it fails on the fronts of restorative justice to the victim, rehabilitative action for the perpetrators, and deterrence for would-be rapists?

  17. #917
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    That was a conjecture that was derived from the facts we have today.
    Please tell me that you're not actually trying to say that there are women in the world today who have been raped and are not actually suffering trauma because their culture doesn't recognize rape.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Please tell me that you're not actually trying to say that there are women in the world today who have been raped and are not actually suffering trauma because their culture doesn't recognize rape.
    There isn't a culture in the world today that is like that.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    What is my false premise? That the rights sexual-sovereignty and self-autonomy are social constructs? Or that Social Cognitions have the power to invoke a fear or trauma that isn't already deep-rooted in our psyche?
    Believe it or not, rape as such exists beyond human culture. Plenty animal species have 2 pathways for sex: female accepts male for mating, they might or might not perform a mating ceremony, and then comes sex... or male rapes female while female resists physically.
    The females of every mammal and bird species are hardwired to mate with males of their chosing. Doing so is in their best interest because since the female is the one that gets pregnant/incubates/raises the offspring, they don't want to waste that energy with the offspring of males of lower quality.
    So females resist rape instinctively, and rape can only be consumed if the female is overpowered. In any case, the females react with the self-preservation drive kicking in.

    The only social construct is what some cultures have, that women don't even have the right to chose sexual mate, that they don't have the right to resist it.
    Last edited by jotabe; 2013-06-18 at 09:17 AM.

  20. #920
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaniz View Post
    There isn't a culture in the world today that is like that.
    Then how are you concluding anything?
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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