PRISM - The USA is watching you

[Deleted]

"The US government searched for detailed information on fewer than 300 phone numbers last year, according to a government paper.

They were among millions of phone and email records collected by the National Security Agency (NSA) in 2012, it says."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22925892

[Deleted]

[Tastyfish]

Post it pads. The ultimate solution to Kinect cam paranoia.

take a look at the guy making porn with it.
http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/xbox-kinect-porn-sex/

[Deleted]

snip

If we're to quote founding fathers, what about Jefferson saying the Constitution should be changed/reviewed every what, 19 years I think it was... Because the current generation shouldn't be ruled by the previous generation. Basically, times change, get with it.

[Adam Jensen]

Appeal to authority fallacy. What makes Franklin so special that he's automatically right?

[Deleted]

Appeal to authority fallacy. What makes Franklin so special that he's automatically right?

Because the founders appear to be demigods.

[GreatOak]

I thought the world already knew our federal government was run by un-American criminals. Sadly most Americans don't care or are too blinded by partisan politics to do anything. A large minority of the people who know about these types of things (civil liberty infringements) even support these policies.

---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 12:56 PM ----------

Because the founders appear to be demigods.

They are when compared to the person taking up space in the White House right now.

[Skroe]

If we're to quote founding fathers, what about Jefferson saying the Constitution should be changed/reviewed every what, 19 years I think it was... Because the current generation shouldn't be ruled by the previous generation. Basically, times change, get with it.

You're exactly right. Also that statement about Jefferson is revealing. He believed this his entire life. The problem is it's entirely impractical. His statement, his entire philosophy of the perpetual revolution... well revolutions are are a blood business. Many thousands died in the American one. And frankly the wrong people, the people willing to go to extremes, seem to come out on top.

Jefferson would have basically doomed the United States to ongoing political instability. There would never be long term or permanent resolution to controversies and political disagreements. Every 20 years, everything would be back on the table for renegotiation.

I think this is relavatory. People on the internet quote - and more often misquote - the Founders as if their word and ideas were the only important and worthwhile thoughts on the subject of how man shall live uttered since the early 19th century. Will Jefferson's believe here, along with many others they shared showed that for all the good they brought about, they also had some pretty awful ideas as well. There innate distrust of National Banks for example, consigned the United States to 120 years of economic volitility. To them it was principle. But in the modern world, when reforming a newly liberalized (or in some cases created) country, a national banking system of one of several models is one of the FIRST things created. John Adams supported the Alien and Sedition acts to the bitter end. Many early 19th century Americans believed that expansion of the United States via the Louisiana Purchase was horrifically unconstitutional.

Old ideas uttered by people of authority aren't necessarily good ones, but foil up there was attempting to make a point that works only if you're incredibly uninformed. It's ironic really. The President saying those words is a Black Man. Shall we go look at the Constitution and examine the 3/5s clause, where people of our President's skin color were owned as property and only counted as 3/5ths a person? Because that's a James Madison winner right there.

Lastly it is kind of ironic Benjamin Franklin uttered those words, because that is exactly what the United States did within his life time, to protect itself from British and French predation. After all, States and their citizens give up certain rights and liberties to Federal Power in the Constitution itself. With respect to the quote, that is a damnable compromise... something most human beings would call sensible.

[Deleted]

I thought the world already knew our federal government was run by un-American criminals. Sadly most Americans don't care or are too blinded by partisan politics to do anything. A large minority of the people who know about these types of things (civil liberty infringements) even support these policies.

This made me chuckle, like Americans can't be criminals....

They are when compared to the person taking up space in the White House right now.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the fact that you where 300 years old and knew the founders personally :-)

[JayJay09]

Appeal to authority fallacy. What makes Franklin so special that he's automatically right?

You have to understand that this is a setback. Liberty has always been held the highest common property. That's what every democratic nation must strive for.

What Obama is supporting is a surveillance society and most importantly it also affects non-Americans. The internet, although invented in the US, is used by the whole world and no one owns it per se. The goal of connecting the world can only be achieved by not cutting the internet's ideals of freedom, otherwise its users are ultimately nothing but puppets of governmental and corporate ideas of the world.

This is closer to the ill conceptions of communism than anybody could want.

[GreatOak]

This made me chuckle, like Americans can't be criminals....

Their behavior is blatantly un-American in my opinion. I wasn't implying that Americans can't be criminals.

[Deleted]

I think this is relavatory. People on the internet quote - and more often misquote - the Founders as if their word and ideas were the only important and worthwhile thoughts on the subject of how man shall live uttered since the early 19th century.

Quoting people who haven been dead for centuries makes you look smarth

-Men in general are quick to believe that which they wish to be true-
Julius Caesar

Their behavior is blatantly un-American in my opinion. I wasn't implying that Americans can't be criminals.

What is un-American behavior? You are talking about how 300mill+ people are supposed to live and believe, pick your words with care.

[Catta]

This made me chuckle, like Americans can't be criminals....



I'm sorry, I must have missed the fact that you where 300 years old and knew the founders personally :-)

The founders who would have had the guy in the white house clapped in chains and dragged to the cotton fields.

[GreatOak]

The founders who would have had the guy in the white house clapped in chains and dragged to the cotton fields.

Which ones? Franklin wouldn't have.

[Skroe]

I thought the world already knew our federal government was run by un-American criminals. Sadly most Americans don't care or are too blinded by partisan politics to do anything. A large minority of the people who know about these types of things (civil liberty infringements) even support these policies.

---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 12:56 PM ----------



They are when compared to the person taking up space in the White House right now.

Dude, if you wanna change it, you gotta win the argument. And by the way, it's a medium-sized majority who support. Frankly, plenty of Americans just simply disagree with you. You may think they don't care or aren't blinded. But plenty just think it's sensible.

Like I truly don't even understand what the point of this entire "debate" if you want to call it that anymore truly is. The vast majority of Congressmen, Senators, the President and career defense officials have rallied around this. Polls show that while Americans have serious concerns, they generally support it.

The side against it has no allies of any kind of political power, they don't have the numbers... and I'm not even sure what the end game here is. Is it to complain loudly? You mean for the next week when even the most strident of people against it get bored and do something else?

I see this fundamentally as a conflict of world view because idealists and realists. In a way it's kind of like religious conservatives and abortions. Many occupy this fantasy land where America is a righteous-under-god abortion-free zone, but it's never gonna happen. Not in a million years. But they still believe it and try and try, but they've done nothing but a couple of stunts and nipping low hanging fruit like partial birth abortions.

People who are against this spy program are exactly the same. What's your strategy? How are you going to get 218 congressmen, 60 senators and a President on your side? Because the political consensus in this country, which has since 2004 at least, not punished elected officials of a certain mindset on security matters, is not with you. If you can change that equation, it's really a discussion worth having. Otherwise it's entirely conjectural, up along the lines of "why doesn't the US actually build the Starship Enterprise".

That's kind of the sad and pathetic part about Edward Snowden. He gave up his entire life to fight a policy most voters agree with, the political consensus is steadfastly defending, to start a debate that really isn't much of one in an political environment where because this is pretty uncontroversial past a certain point, is already moving past it. Basically, he gave up his life for less than nothing.

[Vasti]

This would be the PERFECT timing to release watchdogs!
PRISM is Watchdogs dream PR stunt, they couldn;t do it any better than this.
(also, am I the only one thinking watchdogs would make a great movie set-up?)

ANYWAY

US government just lost a ton of welll to be honest they enver did have that much respect from me, but whatever they had left....it's been severely cut...
Not because of PRISM by itself (we all kinda suspected it was happening and is partially the reason for why my respect for them was initially so low) but more by the way they are handling it

[GreatOak]

We're taking this to the SC where it's likely to be shut down like similar cases in the past. You talk about the establishment being united, but so are many people regardless of political affiliations

[Skroe]

Which ones? Franklin wouldn't have.

Do you really want us to build a list of all the bad ideas the founders had?

I named a few in my original post.

Jefferson - The Perpetual Revolution
Adams - The Alien and Sedition Acts
All the Founders aversion to a national banking system
The founders disdain for expanding Westward.
Their distrust for a standing armed forces despite modern history's long experience of professional forces stabilizing agent in young countries.
The Right to Vote only being afforded to White Male Land Owners
Their skeleton of a Judicial System which they almost completely ignored that was built up by non-Founders on the Supreme Court in the 19th and 20th centuries (starting of course, with Marbury v madison.
The original manner in which Senators were selected (by the State Legislatures).

These are all entirely bad ideas, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. And they were reformed by successors who said "we have a foundation that's good, but we can do better".

[Austilias]

Appeal to authority fallacy. What makes Franklin so special that he's automatically right?

The same question applies to Obama. Looking at the two quotations however, it seems to me that only people who would disagree with Franklin's stance on liberty and security are afflicted with a manner of Stockholme Syndrome wherein the captor is government.

---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 02:26 PM ----------

Do you really want us to build a list of all the bad ideas the founders had?

Their bad ideas do not negate their good ones; nor do they make Obama's ideas on liberty/security and privacy have any more merit than what little (if any) they currently have.

[Adam Jensen]

The same question applies to Obama. Looking at the two quotations however, it seems to me that only people who would disagree with Franklin's stance on liberty and security are afflicted with a manner of Stockholme Syndrome wherein the captor is government.

---------- Post added 2013-06-16 at 02:26 PM ----------



Their bad ideas do not negate their good ones; nor do they make Obama's ideas on liberty/security and privacy have any more merit than what little (if any) they currently have.

First of all, I never said Obama was right either. And secondly, their bad ideas point out that the founding fathers are only human and make bad judgments, even if they had many good ideas.