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  1. #1

    Bear dps problems (feeling like im holding the raid back) 10man hc

    Hey, my guilds progression is 1/13hc and atm I am always near the bottom on dps, whereas the other tank is usually way ahead, we are roughly the same gear level, me 521, him 524. He is a prot warrior.

    Now some may say it's just due to vengeance, but even at times when we have the same vengeance his dps is ahead. Based on looking at world of logs bears seem to be doing more dps on the whole than prot warriors, but im not sure what to do to increase my dps.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2...?s=1069&e=1400 - this is the logs for hc Jin'rok

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Shinryu/simple - me

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Tigzz/simple - warrior

    Any advice would be great, I just don't want to be switched out when I know it should be possible for me to be doing more dps.

  2. #2
    Yeah Swipe on singletarget?

    You ahve way to much hit like 2k. Your lacerate uptime is way to low and thrash is nr1 dmg. Dont know how that is even possible.

  3. #3
    I've reforged out all of my hit possible. TOT is a murder for hit and exp. I've been following neval's ovale script. it says to use swipe (due to the +20% from bleed) and refresh swipe whenever everything else is on cd.

  4. #4
    Are you using Nerien's Guardian script or Leafkiller's? If you type /ovale code it should say at the top of the window.

    Either way go into the options (click on the main icon) and make sure AoE is not checked. Also a good idea to make sure you have the most recent version.

    If you're using the addon properly you should have absolutely no problem doing decent damage, as long as you're actually using your GCDs and popping your damage CDs somewhat often.


    Druid / Demon Hunter SimulationCraft Maintainer

  5. #5
    I was using leafkillers but noticed it was at 5.2, changed to Nerien's 5.3 now. aoe has always been unticket. Do I want full rotation ticked or not?

  6. #6
    You're probably better off using Leafkiller's script I just hadn't gotten around to bumping the version number up to say 5.3, but it doesn't mean much. That should be fixed as soon as Nerien accepts my update.


    Druid / Demon Hunter SimulationCraft Maintainer

  7. #7
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    I think it's mostly because of vengeance and your warrior tank doing most of the tanking.

    For example on Council the warrior tank is taking most of the damage and cleaving 2 targets for majority of the fight while you're alone on the priest. Of course the warrior is going to out DPS you. A guardian on this fight is much better tanking both Sul and frost king though imo.

    On tortos you're on the boss while the warrior is on bat duty. Of course he's going to probably out DPS you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    I think it's mostly because of vengeance and your warrior tank doing most of the tanking.

    For example on Council the warrior tank is taking most of the damage and cleaving 2 targets for majority of the fight while you're alone on the priest. Of course the warrior is going to out DPS you. A guardian on this fight is much better tanking both Sul and frost king though imo.

    On tortos you're on the boss while the warrior is on bat duty. Of course he's going to probably out DPS you.
    That still doesnt explain Thrash beeing nr1 on jinrokh , the low uptime on lacerate, and swipe on a single target fight.

    Jinrokh is a two tank fight so both tanks should be tanking the same amount and in no way a warrior tank with same ilvl. Guardian should do atleast 150k dps
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-06-17 at 07:45 AM.

  9. #9
    There are some strange gem choices, I think that you could get a lot more Critical Strike rating without sacrificing your Expertise rating. You could also use the Expertise enchant on your gloves instead of running a red Expertise gem in a yellow slot - that's a real waste. If it's a yellow slot you should run a straight Crit gem unless you are doing 25 mans and need the extra Stamina. Red slot, run Exp/Crit, blue Crit/Stam or I have a couple Crit/Hit gems since I would be under cap otherwise. I only have a little higher ilvl than you and I have over 11,000 Crit rating in caster form.

    Since you have the Rune of Reorigination, you should favor Haste over Mastery, since you get bonus Haste from gear.

    On a single target fight, 75-80% of your GCD's should be Mangle and Lacerate. The rest will be either FF or Thrash. You should be able to improve your DPS by 30-40% just by changing the abilities you're using.
    Last edited by Tarazet; 2013-06-17 at 03:32 PM.

  10. #10
    Many thanks for the advice from everyone. The changes I have made thus far, are setting up ovale script properly, it now has aoe rotation unticked, this took a bit of getting used to, due to being stuck in the same mindset the last 8 months.

    I am also now looking much more closely at my log to check uptimes on my spells.

    Tarazet- is there any chance you could post your armory so I can have a look at it please.

  11. #11
    1) # of Mangles is way too low.
    2) Stand in puddles when tanking since your Static stacks will always be low at this point.
    3) Lacerate uptime was super low.
    4) Do not use Swipe EVER for single-target.
    5) If you're tanking with a warrior you don't need to hit FFF that much unless Thrash has not fallen off yet (Mangle -> Lacerate -> X -> Lacerate).
    6) Cooldown usage is ok, but try and time them better so you don't lose a bunch at the end.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lsmf5 View Post
    Many thanks for the advice from everyone. The changes I have made thus far, are setting up ovale script properly, it now has aoe rotation unticked, this took a bit of getting used to, due to being stuck in the same mindset the last 8 months.

    I am also now looking much more closely at my log to check uptimes on my spells.

    Tarazet- is there any chance you could post your armory so I can have a look at it please.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...razet/advanced

    Unfortunately, you really do have a monstrous amount of Hit on your gear. As you replace the valor pieces with ToT drops that should start going down. For now, you might want to go with lower ilvl pieces that don't have Hit.

    For way of comparison, I did 133K on heroic Jin'Rokh in that gear (though we wiped at 6% in our best attempt).
    Last edited by Tarazet; 2013-06-17 at 06:19 PM.

  13. #13
    FWIW: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1571&e=1758

    188k on our last kill. Kind of inflated when you end during a puddle phase though. Fasc got over 210k

    My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Arielle/simple (have Vial in for CMs, swap that out for a 530 Rune).
    Fasc: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ar/Fasc/simple

  14. #14
    Deleted
    I understand that hit is a pain, primarily due to your weapon and VP trinket. But why are you over 400 over the expertise cap? This is with plenty of reforging into expertise.

    Otherwise the suggestions made by other people here has been pretty sound. Dont use an aoe rotation for single target, optimize uptimes and cooldowns. Im personally not a fan of NV, but whatever floats your boat. If you ever use HotW, make sure to abuse the dps potential of it when youre not tanking.

  15. #15
    I'm not sure I don't think the armory has updated since I last reforged, as I had it down to 15.03% exp last night and same amount of hit.

    This is a more up to date wol:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a1dcwturyg7so88m/

    I've noticed that I need to improve my sd %as I keep forgetting at times, am tempted to just turn off recount so I never care about dps.

    I use hotw at times, might try using it a bit more, I just like the healing component of nv paired with berserk or incarnation.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    I understand that hit is a pain, primarily due to your weapon and VP trinket. But why are you over 400 over the expertise cap? This is with plenty of reforging into expertise.

    Otherwise the suggestions made by other people here has been pretty sound. Dont use an aoe rotation for single target, optimize uptimes and cooldowns. Im personally not a fan of NV, but whatever floats your boat. If you ever use HotW, make sure to abuse the dps potential of it when youre not tanking.
    NV is very strong on alot of fights. HotW is very strong on some fights but most of the fights NV wins especially in 10m hc. Jinrokh horridon council tortos jikun and iron qon are all fights where NV is better in terms of utility, not sure about dps but in most of those fights you cant use HotW properly.

  17. #17
    ?

    You can totally use HotW on Jin'Rokh, Horridon, Ji-Kun and Qon if you plan it right.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    ?

    You can totally use HotW on Jin'Rokh, Horridon, Ji-Kun and Qon if you plan it right.
    You can, but Nature's Vigil lines up with Lightning Storm, so it's a helpful healing cooldown. Granted that it probably won't be needed once people figure out how to do the mechanics properly.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    ?

    You can totally use HotW on Jin'Rokh, Horridon, Ji-Kun and Qon if you plan it right.

    Not saying you cant use them, but NV in puddle is is really strong Im tanking while the debuffs are beeing dispelled so i use NV during that time to top everyone as fast as possible since i use Incarnation it makes the boss easier for the healers to get the dispelling right.

    On horridon I use NV cause I tank gates 2-4 cause we found druids to be the best at tanking the gates. And with berserk and NV and last phase incarnation with NV is better than HotW.

    On jikun i use NV every time im tanking a guardian so we dont need a healer for guardian and the following aoe. And when im tanking jikun I use NV with the feeding buff, with incarnation and NV its helps alot during aoe phases.

    But on all those bosses you can argue about taking HotW or NV both are strong and in terms of dps if you keep up vengeance the extra dps will not be that much, but the heaing from NV is much better on those fights.

    On iron qon: NV is so strong on this fight. I tried HotW but NV heal is so much stronger, during fire phase and dog phase there is no reason not to take NV, it make this fight so much easier. It gives you the extra dmg when you need it it heals the lowest target for alot with high vengeance.

    On all fights you listed HotW=NV but on iron qon NV is way stronger. While dogs are active last phase a druids does aroung 100k hps for 10seconds and about 50-75k for the rest of NV. Plus NV will be ready for smash again.

  20. #20
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Not saying you cant use them, but NV in puddle is is really strong Im tanking while the debuffs are beeing dispelled so i use NV during that time to top everyone as fast as possible since i use Incarnation it makes the boss easier for the healers to get the dispelling right.

    On horridon I use NV cause I tank gates 2-4 cause we found druids to be the best at tanking the gates. And with berserk and NV and last phase incarnation with NV is better than HotW.

    On jikun i use NV every time im tanking a guardian so we dont need a healer for guardian and the following aoe. And when im tanking jikun I use NV with the feeding buff, with incarnation and NV its helps alot during aoe phases.

    But on all those bosses you can argue about taking HotW or NV both are strong and in terms of dps if you keep up vengeance the extra dps will not be that much, but the heaing from NV is much better on those fights.

    On iron qon: NV is so strong on this fight. I tried HotW but NV heal is so much stronger, during fire phase and dog phase there is no reason not to take NV, it make this fight so much easier. It gives you the extra dmg when you need it it heals the lowest target for alot with high vengeance.

    On all fights you listed HotW=NV but on iron qon NV is way stronger. While dogs are active last phase a druids does aroung 100k hps for 10seconds and about 50-75k for the rest of NV. Plus NV will be ready for smash again.
    On Jin'rokh, your dps would benefit from taking HoTW instead of NV, and you would provide a much stronger healing cd during the lightning phase. Your NV heals are not really doing much in comparison to your actual healers healing in terms of topping people after dispels.

    NV is nice on the doors on horridon, I will agree, however the last phase will go far faster if your co-tank tanks and you hotw dps once the war god is dead. HoTW was also useful earlier on in progression as it gives you a bit more hp which was quite useful. Now though, you could make a good argument for using either talent on that fight.

    On Ji'kun, you are using 3 healers anyways, so I'm not entirely sure what the benefit of what you describe is to be honest. Not to mention, again, with the feed buff, hotw dps is very high, and it means again, your co tank can actually do some damage also.

    As for Iron Quon:
    If you look at your own logs, NV is only peaking at 40k hps on iron quon. HoTW will heal far stronger, if that is really needed at this point. AND as you 2 tank it, you'd do more damage also if you took heart of the wild.

    Of course, there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, all I'm trying to do is provide a counter argument. Both HoTW and NV are useful for us at the moment, and depending on your own play style, raid setup, healing competency, fight tactics and a variety of other things, you take the one you feel is the best. It really isn't a "one size fits all" type of talent tier. I'd say the pros and cons can be as follows:

    Hotw:
    Pros:
    -Better dps on fights where you 2 tank (particularly if its a short fight)
    -Better healing for the duration of hotw, but less healing overall throughout the whole fight.
    -More HP should you need it for any given fight mechanic.

    Cons:
    -Slightly lower dps than NV on fights that you will always be tanking something and/or cannot use HoTW for dps
    -In order to provide the (tbh quite OP) healing, you cannot do much dps
    -Can be sometimes clunky to work it in to a fight to make the most use of it

    NV:
    Pros:
    -Better dps on fights where you are always tanking and/or solo tanking
    -Much shorter cd on the healing ability which can line up nicely with frequent dmg phases (i.e. rampages on megaera, lightning on jin'rokh etc.)
    -Buffs your burst dps and doesn't prevent you from dpsing if you need to heal.
    -Relatively simple to use vs hotw.

    Cons:
    -Slightly lower hp, but this shouldn't matter much as most people will over gear the content they are going in to.
    -Slightly Lower dps on fights that require tank switches.
    -Much weaker healing than HoTW.

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