View Poll Results: Should Warlocks receive a fully supported tanking specialization?

Voters
161. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, even if demonology dps will be removed in the process.

    33 20.50%
  • Yes, but only implemented in an additional fourth spec.

    42 26.09%
  • Maybe, i'm interested but it may harm the class/game as a whole.

    9 5.59%
  • Maybe, i have no interest but more options are always good.

    3 1.86%
  • No, developer ressources should be invested elsewhere.

    18 11.18%
  • No, this is not the proper direction for the game/class.

    56 34.78%
Page 17 of 18 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
18
LastLast
  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    No, the people hurt most by playing pures with the quality-of-life issues are people who primarily pug trade chat or queue LFD/LFR and those who have limited in-game time to wait forever to find a pug/queue. That is the group I'm really centering around with my arguments, who have high representation, and are arguably the target audience.
    I don't believe this is true. It's fair to say most hybrids don't make full use of their tanking capabilities as it is. Previous to loot-specs, healers were always the issue but now it always seems to be a long wait for tanks. I think it's also therefore fair to say that people who play tanks, don't want to play with random groups; I for one never join LFD alone, and am reluctant to tank LFR without either going with another tank or several DPS/Healers for 'support'. I don't honestly know a single tank who would.

    I don't see how Warlocks being able to tank themselves will fix that, when the tanks we already have are themselves taking up the option to opt-out in droves. Those few who play Warlock now and would take up tanking would be a drop in the ocean compared to those who reroll from those existing tanks; and there's nothing to say it would improve Warlock representation when you're just as at risk of alienating existing players from the class.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Locruid View Post
    Being able to change from DPS to Tank DURING A BATTLE and on the fly is a hell of a lot different than making a Lock Tank dependent on Glyph Switching which cannot be changed in combat or in BGs that are active
    I didn't mean it like that. They simply don't like having two roles in one spec and having to balance gear, passive talents ect. It is also confusing to players and can be confusing in a pvp environment. Its much easier for the developers and players to have the 2 roles in 2 specs. Blue posts back me up on this.

    As for the glyph I think its causing them grief, especially in pvp. I would expect it will be axed next expansion if they continue the no tank policy.

  3. #323
    I voted "Yes, even if demonology dps will be removed in the process" for a couple of reasons

    1. The whole "Pure" vs. "Hybrid" division is bad for the game. All pures should have one tree devoted something other than DPS.

    2. A fourth specialization isn't necessary and could be detrimental. I'm still hoping for tri-specs since their arguments against them are flimsy. Having one or two classes with 4 rather than 3 specializations muddies the waters.

    3. Having a ranged tank would provide some needed freshness to WoW.

    Finally, I agree with GC that having a glyph be so powerful that instantly changes the spec from DPS to Tank is bad game design. Could you imagine the glyph's tool tip? There is a lot more to tanking than just a % damage reduction and a taunt button. One specialization would have to be given over to tanking. Demo makes sense mechanically and in lore.

  4. #324
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Xelnath said himself he had no idea how tanking classes were going to work, and that what DA became was built on the defunct Wrath model of tanking. That's why it didn't work, that's it was overpowered.
    You find the defunct Wrath model of tanking that DA was built on compelling, but not the newer active mitigation model. I'm sorry, but a valid DA tank spec would necessarily be built on the latter for the purposes of game balance.
    Actually, DA uses the active mitigation model in terms of you push buttons to mitigate incoming damage, as I explained in an earlier post. Rather then reducing the damage coming in, DA either A) spends Demonic Fury on a fairly powerful absorb ability to mitigate incoming damage, or B) lowers avoidance in exchange for a decent amount of self-healing (about 3% health regen per second modified by haste), which is even stronger then DK's self healing. But, essentially, a DA lock NOT using thier active mitigation would take more damage then a DA lock using thier active mitigation. Of course, the main thing about DA locks in the current implementation is that they are a "soak" tank, akin to Wrath bears. They have higher health/passive mitigation then other tanks in order to make up for the really low avoidance. Even then, for some tanks during Wrath, there was more active mitigation then during Cata (Shield block was a quick 30 second CD with 10 second duration, Holy Shield had to be pressed every 8 seconds, and all DK tanking specs could subsitute thier main damage ability with Death Strike for additional self healing. A tank not taking advantage of these cooldowns/abilities would take more damage and require more healing then a tank taking advantage of thier cooldowns.) During Wrath, these forms of active mitigation, with the exception of DKs, were removed. Holy Shield was removed entirely and Shield Block became a 1 min CD with 10 seconds of uptime, akin to a minor cooldown. So, if anything, MoP took some of the concepts of Wrath tanking and made them more prominent- SotR is essentially a Holy Shield on a ~8 second cooldown, Shield Block has double the uptime of Wrath shield block, and the active mitigation model was moved to the other tanks.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Actually, DA uses the active mitigation model in terms of you push buttons to mitigate incoming damage, as I explained in an earlier post. Rather then reducing the damage coming in, DA either A) spends Demonic Fury on a fairly powerful absorb ability to mitigate incoming damage, or B) lowers avoidance in exchange for a decent amount of self-healing (about 3% health regen per second modified by haste), which is even stronger then DK's self healing. But, essentially, a DA lock NOT using thier active mitigation would take more damage then a DA lock using thier active mitigation. Of course, the main thing about DA locks in the current implementation is that they are a "soak" tank, akin to Wrath bears. They have higher health/passive mitigation then other tanks in order to make up for the really low avoidance. Even then, for some tanks during Wrath, there was more active mitigation then during Cata (Shield block was a quick 30 second CD with 10 second duration, Holy Shield had to be pressed every 8 seconds, and all DK tanking specs could subsitute thier main damage ability with Death Strike for additional self healing. A tank not taking advantage of these cooldowns/abilities would take more damage and require more healing then a tank taking advantage of thier cooldowns.) During Wrath, these forms of active mitigation, with the exception of DKs, were removed. Holy Shield was removed entirely and Shield Block became a 1 min CD with 10 seconds of uptime, akin to a minor cooldown. So, if anything, MoP took some of the concepts of Wrath tanking and made them more prominent- SotR is essentially a Holy Shield on a ~8 second cooldown, Shield Block has double the uptime of Wrath shield block, and the active mitigation model was moved to the other tanks.
    I can't quite figure out where you're going with this... You're telling me that DA works like a Wrath Bear, but could be modified, as other tank specs were, to have it's active mitigation and healing more prominent to bring it in line with the MoP active mitigation model? I think that's somewhere along the lines of what I'd implied and would be quite a change to the overall playstyle and bring them to somewhere akin to DKs who take more damage, but are able to heal it back to a greater degree than other tanks.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-06-25 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #326
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    6,692
    I think Blizzard really need to move away from the whole Pure DPS classes. Just look at all new classes they have added. None of which are Pure DPS. So I hope they add a fourth specialization for all classes (that don't already have four). With either the new one being Healer or Tank or changing one existing to Healer or Tank. Meaning all classes will be Hybrids.

  7. #327
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    8,653
    Quote Originally Posted by Alarinth View Post
    Not necessarily - having only absorbs and a high base health pool as well as healing reduction can make it a big strain on healers. The damage will be constant, and in most cases unavoidable.

    I was a healer for awhile. Constant damage is much easier to deal with than random spiky damage.

  8. #328
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I can't quite figure out where you're going with this... You're telling me that DA works like a Wrath Bear, but could be modified, as other tank specs were, to have it's active mitigation and healing more prominent to bring it in line with the MoP active mitigation model? I think that's somewhere along the lines of what I'd implied and would be quite a change to the overall playstyle and bring them to somewhere akin to DKs who take more damage, but are able to heal it back to a greater degree than other tanks.
    To make my point a bit clearer, DA right now utilizes active mitigation. The difference between a DA lock using active mitigation and a DA lock not using active mitigation, though, is about 13% less damage taken/self healing, a significantly bigger difference compared to other tanks, where a tank who doesn't use active mitigation will require a significantly (~30%, up to 70% in the case of Monks) larger amount of healing to remain alive.. It would only require a few tweaks in order for DA locks active mitigation to be as strong as other tanks (vengeance scaling would significantly raise the amount of active mitigation they would do, for instance)

    As I have stated before, all that would be required for warlock tanks is A) removal of DA glyph, B) addition of 4th spec that grants Dark Apotheosis/ working Provocation, and changes Shadowbolt into Demonic slash at lvl 10, and gives various tanking abilities as one lvls up, including extra armor compared to Demo's Metamorphasis and crit immunity, and C) allow the 4th spec to acquire vengeance from damage that gives SP instead of AP.

    The SP scaling would be the only potential problem from what I could see in implementing Warlock Tanks.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  9. #329
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    To make my point a bit clearer, DA right now utilizes active mitigation. The difference between a DA lock using active mitigation and a DA lock not using active mitigation, though, is about 13% less damage taken/self healing, a significantly bigger difference compared to other tanks, where a tank who doesn't use active mitigation will require a significantly (~30%, up to 70% in the case of Monks) larger amount of healing to remain alive..
    So a question: Most tanks have two forms of active mitigation: Physical and proactive (shield of the righteous, shield block, blood shield, etc.) and magical and reactive (word of glory, shield barrier, death strike), etc. My question, could you think of a proactive AM ability that would be unique? (Fury Ward by the way, is not very unique on its own right now).

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    As I have stated before, all that would be required for warlock tanks is A) removal of DA glyph, B) addition of 4th spec that grants Dark Apotheosis/ working Provocation, and changes Shadowbolt into Demonic slash at lvl 10, and gives various tanking abilities as one lvls up, including extra armor compared to Demo's Metamorphasis and crit immunity, and C) allow the 4th spec to acquire vengeance from damage that gives SP instead of AP.
    SP/AP has been done (paladins), obviously extra health armor and crit immunity are (relatively) easy to tune and add, glyph needs to be gone. So my opinion: the actual demon model (not the crappy wings one) should be used for a tank form and possible a non-tank (maybe only some dps spec) form. Personally I still think that the wings model should be a glyph (and just the model!) for all specs sort of like Treant Form.

    Having not really touched DA itself with a 10 foot pole, what would be unique about this compared to other tanks? Not in terms of look but playstyle?

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    So a question: Most tanks have two forms of active mitigation: Physical and proactive (shield of the righteous, shield block, blood shield, etc.) and magical and reactive (word of glory, shield barrier, death strike), etc. My question, could you think of a proactive AM ability that would be unique? (Fury Ward by the way, is not very unique on its own right now).
    First question is straightforward in my opinion. Fury Ward absorbs the same type of damage as the other physical/proactive abilities. As for a magical/reactive ability, have DA form not consume charges on Healthstones when used, and have a lower cooldown at the cost of fury. Lore wise it could be something like infusing the healthstones with demonic fury and then eating that.

    That way you have Fury Ward to prevent physical, and you have healthstones to heal back up some burst magic damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    SP/AP has been done (paladins), obviously extra health armor and crit immunity are (relatively) easy to tune and add, glyph needs to be gone. So my opinion: the actual demon model (not the crappy wings one) should be used for a tank form and possible a non-tank (maybe only some dps spec) form. Personally I still think that the wings model should be a glyph (and just the model!) for all specs sort of like Treant Form.
    I think a good solution would be giving Demonology the green Meta form, and giving DA the purple Meta form (the purple one even looks more ragged and torn up).
    Alternatively Demonology can get the wings (temporarily becoming a half-demon) and DA can get the full Meta form model (fully becoming a demon to tank).


    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Having not really touched DA itself with a 10 foot pole, what would be unique about this compared to other tanks? Not in terms of look but playstyle?
    The number of potential choices when tanking is amazing. DA can talent/pet-sac to be better at different types of tanking roles at the cost of not being as good elsewhere.

    Dark Regen for a 2min CD, or Soul Leech for a damage -> mitigation passive, or Harvest Life for a fury builder/AoE threat generator/self-heal.
    Soul Link + GoSac for 20% max health, SacPact for a substantial absorb shield every 1 min, or DB for absorbing huge hits at the expense of higher damage taken later on.
    The new breath of gul'dan talent on PTR for a front-conal slow, or shadowfury for a aoe stun.
    AV for doing more damage to stuff attacking you. KjC if you need to move a lot (not really applicable come 5.4). MF for when you have to pick up lots of mobs that are spread out.


    DA has Soul Fire for doing lots of threat for fury, and then Fury Ward for an absorb with a high fury cost. The bigger pool of fury and 2 charges of Fury Ward means that DA tanks can choose when they want to use their active mitigation more, allowing for less damage taken by better timing Fury Wards at the cost of more damage taken while post-poning it.

    DA also must keep up a passive enfeeblement aura to debuff mobs around them (at the additional cost of fury). HoG allows for AoE threat + fury generation when there's lots of mobs.

    Demonic Slash has a 10 yard range and high fury generation as well as a low-ish recharge with 3 max stacks.

    Immolation Aura allows you to do AoE threat at the cost of fury, while at the same time continuing to use other attacks (unlike monks for example who must channel Crane Kick)

    Corruption for fury generation allows the multi-dotting playstyle as a tank.


    As for pet sac, you can sac an Imp for a dispel. Voidwalker for a Max Health CD. Succ for a AoE knockback. Felhunter for a second interrupt (at range, long cd). (Carrion Swarm is the first, melee, short cd)


    I can go on more but a lot of that is very unique to DA tanks when compared to other tanks.

  11. #331
    If you want a warlock tanking spec, then you'll have to give up demo as a DPS spec. I think allot of locks won't be down to being forced out of demo DPS.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by re1gn1te View Post
    If you want a warlock tanking spec, then you'll have to give up demo as a DPS spec. I think allot of locks won't be down to being forced out of demo DPS.
    That's a false dichotomy fallacy. There's no reason why it cannot be implemented as a 4th spec.

  13. #333
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    425
    I think it's asking for too much, they already gave warlocks a ton of love, and you can already tank to an extent.

  14. #334
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Nagrand Arena
    Posts
    1,465
    I think it's asking for too much, they already gave warlocks a ton of love, and you can already tank to an extent.
    They gave a warlocks ton of work, not love. They took from us numerous things away after 7 years of perfectly good design which no one asked for and gave us dumbed down mechanics and gimmicky stuff.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    They gave a warlocks ton of work, not love. They took from us numerous things away after 7 years of perfectly good design which no one asked for and gave us dumbed down mechanics and gimmicky stuff.
    I'm not sure I'd call demo perfectly good design, but I'll agree wholeheartedly on affliction - that was changed far too much, fairly sure GC mentioned that affliction was one of the more "complete" feeling specs at some point in cata, it's soulshard system needed reworking, but not the complete overhaul we got.

    Change isn't always necessarily for the best, and certainly not always desired or an indication of affection.

  16. #336
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'm not sure I'd call demo perfectly good design, but I'll agree wholeheartedly on affliction - that was changed far too much, fairly sure GC mentioned that affliction was one of the more "complete" feeling specs at some point in cata, it's soulshard system needed reworking, but not the complete overhaul we got.
    One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.

  17. #337
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Nagrand Arena
    Posts
    1,465
    One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.
    I was intrigued with the mop design of destro at first by the looks on the ptr

    BUT

    once 5.0 droped I litteraly lost HALF of my binds. The spec, while a bit complicated in cata, lost too much depth in mop. And even the single target rotation for RoF is going to be toned down in 5.4. I would trade mop destro for the improved imp cata any day, at least in cata there was a bit of rotation diversity.


    I'm not sure I'd call demo perfectly good design, but I'll agree wholeheartedly on affliction - that was changed far too much, fairly sure GC mentioned that affliction was one of the more "complete" feeling specs at some point in cata, it's soulshard system needed reworking, but not the complete overhaul we got.
    Never had problem with demo, but yeah, mop now feels smoother. But affly is just torn out both pvp and pve wise, the spec feeling is just not here and I 100% blame it on MG, which I could kinda bear with, and SB:SS which i deeply despise. KJC even made things less interasting.

    But this is off topic, nvm
    Last edited by Naztrak; 2013-06-27 at 10:21 AM.

  18. #338
    No, developer ressources should be invested elsewhere.


    why?


    because rogues should tank befor warlocks :P

  19. #339
    Pit Lord Blitzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,380
    Only if I can keep Demonology dps, but if they decided to change it, I doubt they'd keep it.

    Blood Dks say hello
    “It is either easy or impossible.” - Salvador Dali

    WoW characters:
    Blitzo[Warrior] -Rex[Hunter] -Jax [Warlock] -
    Gluttony [Mage]

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.
    Destruction definitely needed it. Demonology I'm torn on, I enjoyed the old playstyle well enough, so I'm not sure the changes were necessary, but I do like the results of the changes. Affliction didn't need changing, caving to the 'channelled filler' crowd and making such a radical change is I believe proving to have been a mistake.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •