View Poll Results: Should Warlocks receive a fully supported tanking specialization?

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  • Yes, even if demonology dps will be removed in the process.

    33 20.50%
  • Yes, but only implemented in an additional fourth spec.

    42 26.09%
  • Maybe, i'm interested but it may harm the class/game as a whole.

    9 5.59%
  • Maybe, i have no interest but more options are always good.

    3 1.86%
  • No, developer ressources should be invested elsewhere.

    18 11.18%
  • No, this is not the proper direction for the game/class.

    56 34.78%
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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.
    I really like destro too, but I'm always hesitant to bring it up when talking about how I feel in terms of the redesign since I've seen a fair few destro locks saying they don't like what blizz did to it and I rarely ever played destro until MOP, I was always affliction or demo (bar TBCs 1 button spamfest).

    I'll be sad to see ROF leave the rotation in 5.4, since I think filler will be very bland without it - an extra button added to the mix would be nice, but I've really enjoyed what they did to it so far, more so than what demo has turned into even.

    Demonology I was always fond of, even when it was a pretty poor spec in older expansions - I'd managed to drag competitive numbers out of it in tiers where it wasn't exactly your first choice. I'm still not that big a fan of meta, I liked the spec to feel a bit more pet focused - but I'll take MOP demo over Cata demo any day, MWC really left bitter memories of playing the spec in that expansion, but I'll always have a soft spot for TBC / WOTLK demo, even if it's probably mostly rose tinted glasses. Amusingly, despite my belief it should be pet centric, I'm enjoying UVOLS demo more than "normal" demo, having a horde of imps is giving me far more satisfaction than I expected - shame bad RNG can sour a pull if you just don't get any decent procs.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2013-06-27 at 11:24 AM.

  2. #342
    This would open Pandora's Box of nonsensical specs for several classes. Next thing we know, we'll have warriors and rogues healing with first aid kits or some similar stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  3. #343
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsage View Post
    This would open Pandora's Box of nonsensical specs for several classes. Next thing we know, we'll have warriors and rogues healing with first aid kits or some similar stupidity.
    a numerous people cried for lock and dk healers, calling something like black magic healing nonsense. just do a quick search and.... puke I guess

  4. #344
    For the record, and I didn't read through 18 pages of this so apologies if this was mentioned, but in MoP alpha and early beta warlock tanking was being fully developed as an end game viable role. The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

    Any-who, carry on.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  5. #345
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    For the record, and I didn't read through 18 pages of this so apologies if this was mentioned, but in MoP alpha and early beta warlock tanking was being fully developed as an end game viable role. The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

    Any-who, carry on.
    IIRC, Xel was forced to "leave" because of a) rude comments on message forums (not insulting others, mind, just using curses and being forceful and boastful in his arguments, not a fitting representation of Blizz and they weren't meant to be on forums in the first place, even he said the job and stress got the better of his ego) and b) forcing and pushing the Cataclysm spell on Warlocks despite not being suitable (it was a spell that smart melee knew to avoid, no protection against ranged, and was bugged leaving you at 1 hp) and arguing over that with the other devs. IIRC, Xel said he showed his tanking format for warlocks to another Dev who said, in as much of an exact quote as I can remember: "It's good, but it doesn't suit warlocks". You can argue the lore of Warlocks to be either full DPS, Tank, or even healers in the same way TOR managed to argue the Sith to be healers by being selfishly altruistic, but at the end of the day, it's a radical departure from the original design of Warlocks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 01:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Destruction definitely needed it. Demonology I'm torn on, I enjoyed the old playstyle well enough, so I'm not sure the changes were necessary, but I do like the results of the changes. Affliction didn't need changing, caving to the 'channelled filler' crowd and making such a radical change is I believe proving to have been a mistake.
    Affli was a bit too good on Multi-dot, of course the 5.4 shift of damage to DoTs is better than live, and I think we both agree Shadow's Embrace was tedious. Personally, I see as much difference between MG and Drain Soul as between Shadow Bolt and decimation Soul Fire, so maybe it's not meant to feel all too different as long as the damage is there. I think it suits Affli more than a casted spell, and it feels as distinct from Spriests as Destro feels distinct from Fire (similar in casts because there's only so many models in the world, but differing procs, focuses, and priorities)

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".
    a) GC isn't a one man army, pinning it all on him is stupid. Fairly sure Xelnath mentioned that with demo tanking he didn't listen to enough feedback from the number guys on the team, who said that there were some major problems with the raw % dmg reductions DA put out.

    b) There were massive balancing problems, anyone who took part in the beta knows this, Xelnath mentioned it himself iirc in the "not listening to numbers guy".

    c) Xel's departure certainly was NOT over demonology tanking, if anything it was a mix of him pushing too hard for certain things for warlocks in the face of opposition from the rest of the TEAM (Not GC, they have a team of designers, not Xelnath and GC over there) - not all of these changes would have been good ones either, they have a team for a reason (see Cataclysm, Xel's pet addition that didn't fix the pvp problems we had) and he was far too open with mentioning when he wasn't happy with the way things were going on the dev side in public spaces (Again, see the Cataclysm debacle).

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    Affli was a bit too good on Multi-dot, of course the 5.4 shift of damage to DoTs is better than live, and I think we both agree Shadow's Embrace was tedious. Personally, I see as much difference between MG and Drain Soul as between Shadow Bolt and decimation Soul Fire, so maybe it's not meant to feel all too different as long as the damage is there. I think it suits Affli more than a casted spell, and it feels as distinct from Spriests as Destro feels distinct from Fire (similar in casts because there's only so many models in the world, but differing procs, focuses, and priorities)
    Thing is, we're STILL strong at multidotting, it fixed nothing and just caused a bunch of other problems that blizzard still can't find a way to deal with after a year, I'd considering being OP on a few fights the lesser of two evils than the raging mobility problems we've had and complete mess it made of afflic pvp.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    For the record, and I didn't read through 18 pages of this so apologies if this was mentioned, but in MoP alpha and early beta warlock tanking was being fully developed as an end game viable role. The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

    Any-who, carry on.
    He did, he said he had no idea how tanking worked and built it on the Wrath model. Between the amount of work it needed to bring it up to speed, and self evidently divisive nature of such a change (potentially far worse backlash than the DK tree-reassignments), the team as a whole decided to leave it out.

    I think the arguments were more about his taking on the unofficial public role of "Warlock lead", when there was never meant to be any 'class leads' for obvious reasons: That it would lead to bias which would pit them against the rest of the team, while at the same time detracting from the rest of the team's own efforts in the classes' development by making it look like it was all that one guy's work. I rather suspect he did both.

  8. #348
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post

    Thing is, we're STILL strong at multidotting, it fixed nothing and just caused a bunch of other problems that blizzard still can't find a way to deal with after a year, I'd considering being OP on a few fights the lesser of two evils than the raging mobility problems we've had and complete mess it made of afflic pvp.
    Really? I had thought the point of MG was to have Afflocks focus on single target when it's needed rather than having all DoTs and Shadow Embrace stacks on the boss, and then go multi-dot the non-crucial adds because Shadowbolting didn't do much, but I'm not that sure about how Aff went in Cata (I remember the Drain Lifing in Wrath was because Shadow Bolt was about as useful as Drain Life and at least DL gave life back). But that's getting offtopic from tanking (even though I really really miss Dark Pact).

    For the record, from Xel's apology thread:

    "Yesterday, I said some very disrespectful and selfish things about the class design team at Blizzard. They decided as a team that Cataclysm was the right spell to go with for Destruction, but in my pride, I made it about myself. I felt powerless to influence the meeting and took out my frustration publicly.

    That has led to a series of correct decisions on the part of the Blizzard, as a game designer does not speak for the company and doing so, especially in a negative light about the team he works with everyday is extremely destructive to team cohesion...."

    So, he wasn't forced to leave purely over tanking, and people blaming GC should probably pay more attention to Xel's prior posts.
    Last edited by Queen Ultima; 2013-06-27 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #349
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
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    Really? I had thought the point of MG was to have Afflocks focus on single target
    It was, and it completly guted the dot and the mechanics tied to it. SB:SS made us the best choice in multidoting in mop, not the dots itself.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    Really? I had thought the point of MG was to have Afflocks focus on single target when it's needed rather than having all DoTs and Shadow Embrace stacks on the boss, and then go multi-dot the non-crucial adds because Shadowbolting didn't do much, but I'm not that sure about how Aff went in Cata (I remember the Drain Lifing in Wrath was because Shadow Bolt was about as useful as Drain Life and at least DL gave life back). But that's getting offtopic from tanking (even though I really really miss Dark Pact).
    It is and it does, it was meant to replace the unpopular Shadow Embrace debuff, while at the same time offering the Cataclysm Drain Life build's purportedly popular 'feel'.

  11. #351
    TBH shamans were begging for a tank spec long long before locks were =p

  12. #352
    I think it would be nice, vangeance would either give spell power or still attack power but make your pet deal more damage n stuff.
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/97457-scissors is not a sword... or at least thats what my mom told me when I was 6.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    Really? I had thought the point of MG was to have Afflocks focus on single target
    It was the intent and it works, to an extent - it's arguably been toned down a little (ymmv), but affliction hasn't budged from being great at multidotting and demonology is doing absurd things with UVOLS.

    I just don't consider it a good trade to go from
    1) Dominates the few multidot fights we get
    to
    2) Still very strong at multidot fights, now feels like a shadowpriest, plagued by a multidude of pvp problems over an entire expansion, having major problems balancing movement (KJC malarkey).

    I'm glad they're trying to fix problems, the soul shard system did NOT work for affliction in Cata - it really needed a revamp, but I think the changes revolving around multidotting / MG were a case of swing and, not quite miss, but they hit the ball through someones window, breaking it and not accomplishing much.

  14. #354
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    It was the intent and it works, to an extent - it's arguably been toned down a little (ymmv), but affliction hasn't budged from being great at multidotting and demonology is doing absurd things with UVOLS.

    I just don't consider it a good trade to go from
    1) Dominates the few multidot fights we get
    to
    2) Still very strong at multidot fights, now feels like a shadowpriest, plagued by a multidude of pvp problems over an entire expansion, having major problems balancing movement (KJC malarkey).

    I'm glad they're trying to fix problems, the soul shard system did NOT work for affliction in Cata - it really needed a revamp, but I think the changes revolving around multidotting / MG were a case of swing and, not quite miss, but they hit the ball through someones window, breaking it and not accomplishing much.
    Y'know, sorry to go off on a tangent, but is there anything left to say about warlock tanks anymore or are we just gonna focus on Afflocks in this thread xD I mean, sorry, I'm waiting for Brusalk or Voidspark to come in and start this back up on the pro-side with more than "I want" or "I don't want", but....

    Actually, I'm going to go full circle and use this argument: Look at this small, immeasurable change: Affliction Warlocks, who previously Dotted and used Shadowbolt, get their nuke changed from a cast-time spell to a channel. Functionally, they're very much the same, you spend 2.5 seconds on Shadowbolt you get damage, you spend X seconds on MG (for lack of lookng at the full-cast time) you get damage. Sure, MG has the DoT mechanic on it, but arguably you spend the same time MGing as you do Shadow Bolting, or at least if the current rotation was the same save for the nuke the priority wouldn't be much different even if the feel and extra ticks are. Yet it's still a splitting factor in the community. Some people say it makes them feel like Shadow priests (personally I think channels make Aff feel as much as Shadow as cast-times make Destruction feel like Balance, it's just a mechanic that's honestly a little underused, but I digress, each to their own and valid opinions). Now this is a very small change, but big consequences, and it's a factor the community can't decide on because of those differences (Shadow Embrace vs Malefic Grasp's debuff) that make such a BIG difference in play. So, when you look at Warlock tanking in the view of the Affliction changes, you see that it'll probably be the one thing that wholly divides the Warlock community (heck, it's only really comparable to "Are Warlocks a pet class") if it's introduced. At least, that's my view on things, not being an elite or H raider I can't say much about the effects of Warlock tanking mechanically, whether ranged or not.

    Anyway, thank you for clearing that up (I'm not a huge Affli fan admittedly). Got a bit tangenty there. Keep watching the skies... I mean skies. (That joke really doesn't work over text).

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