View Poll Results: Should Warlocks receive a fully supported tanking specialization?

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161. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, even if demonology dps will be removed in the process.

    33 20.50%
  • Yes, but only implemented in an additional fourth spec.

    42 26.09%
  • Maybe, i'm interested but it may harm the class/game as a whole.

    9 5.59%
  • Maybe, i have no interest but more options are always good.

    3 1.86%
  • No, developer ressources should be invested elsewhere.

    18 11.18%
  • No, this is not the proper direction for the game/class.

    56 34.78%
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  1. #161
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    no. mages should be able to be tanks. with magic shields. not warlocks.
    Proposal
    Evidence/Contributing Factors
    Outcome, and Suggestions...


    Sorry, just putting in the definition of a full argument for people incase it's helpful. I'd love to know the reasoning why, if any, Mages have an arbitrary reason to be tanks where Warlocks don't (and I'm on the anti-hybridization side!)

  2. #162
    I would be happy to be able to use my warlock as a main tank. I was instantly amazed by the idea the minute these things came to the MoP-Beta.

    I do want to emphasize though, that the ability to tank should come with using normal cloth caster gear or wearing other types of armor thats already available with tank stats. Nobody would be happy about further bloated loot tables only because locks need cloth with parry and dodge. In my opinion there should be a conversion of caster stats to defensive stats/abilities, so regular cloth gear could be used. Maybe spirit would be a good option for that, so tank-locks need to obtain at least another set of gear to be able to fit both roles, dps and tank.

    However, I don't really see that coming.

  3. #163
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    I agree that the lack of tanks is probably due to the relative lack of rewards vs larger responsibility (are there any numbers on how Call to Arms: Tanks, the LFR/D additional reward for low-pop roles, affected the tank population?)
    Not sure. Just keep in mind that for instance, on my main my tank spec is a 3rd spec (meaning that if I want to tank, I have to respec). Since Blizzard is stubborn and somehow thinks tri-spec is "bad" (don't even start me on this), the CTA bag hardly makes up for the respec cost alone, let alone the time I put in - both to run the instances, and to respec, and to maintain a 3rd spec.

    Also, since I primarily play healers, I like to have a DPS spec as a 2nd spec (I feel heal/DPS is more useful both for quests and for random groups than heal/tank), so if I really wanted to chain CTA bags I would have to level and gear a primary tanking alt to realistically get any reward. Then we're looking at the cost of maintaining and gearing multiple alts, especially in MOP, it's still pretty bad. Basically the CTA reward bag is pitiful and hardly worth the effort, unless you have a main toon that is a tank/off-tank.

    Off-Topic: Finally for queues, at least for healing, there might be some larger responsibility, but there's also the painfulness aspect. As a healer you really have few ways to make a shitty, slow run go faster. As a DPS you can actually affect the speed of a run quite significantly, especially in LFR.

    Possible Solutions: Add tri-spec in game, and give CTA bags for LFR as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    Thinking back to DKs, you've got people who were levelling their class up to Outlands and so knew how to heal/dps with that class, meanwhile DKs had limited (infact, n the context of the Acherus zone, there's practically zero chance to learn tanking) experience, and so that friction created the infamous Hellfire Ramparts Dumb Knight that didn't know how to tank and wiped. Of course, some DKs did know, but the combination of DKs being ideal for someone who levelled a cloth or DPS class and didn't want to level a warrior, and people who had little patience for Outlands levelling made a bad combination, I remember tanking (and often DPSing) Death Knghts having a stigma around them. It's part of the reason why Monks are made at level 1.
    Thinking about it, my first DK was made pre-4.1 in Cataclysm. While I had a sort of rough time learning to tank, I feel that the learning curve has gotten significantly easier now, especially with tanks basically being Superman, and the 500% threat modifier making it a lot easier to get aggro, and with rotations being significantly more like many DPS specs. Or maybe I'm just too veteran of a player now, I can't tell.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-22 at 02:49 PM.

  4. #164
    something worked in LFR....cool story bro.

  5. #165
    Since blizzard has been slobbing all over locks this entire xpac... maybe?

  6. #166
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    People play as dps without some extra reward to play that role, so there should not need to be some extra one for tanking or healing.
    If there is the need to bribe players, then you should take a good look at why.
    I'll start with the obvious, that even Blizzard has acknowledged it: Tanks gear quickly, both since they need a decent level of gear to raid, and because they get quick queues. Once you're geared, there's really little incentive to run 5-mans/LFR.

    For non-raiding/casual players, the simple fact of the matter is most players play DPS. Being a player that just whacks things is a far easier concept than a support player.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    That player attitude is hurting the desire to tank, and no extra amount of options will solve that. Greater responsibility, and the expected responsibility to deal with the shortcomings or downright stupid behaviour of others. Not unlike healers.
    Sucks, but if you can't deal with that, you don't belong in the role of healer or tank. In fact, if you can't absolutely deal with others making mistakes, you probably don't belong in groups at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    If a dps facepulls, tanks are expected to save them. If a dps stands in bad stuff, the healer is expected to save them. Why is there no expectation for the dps to not take that damage in the first place.
    Welcome to being a support player. That said most groups will votekick someone who continuously facepulls or dies or AFKs. Nobody has fun when an idiot is consistently (and obviously not accidentally) facepulling, including (and perhaps least of all) the other DPS.

  7. #167
    If warlocks are able to tank as good as the other classes, then their ability to tank from range will make all other tank classes irrelevant.
    If warlocks are not able to tank as good as the other classes, then what's the point outside of a few niche encounters?

    I'm not opposed to idea of giving warlocks some glyphs that reduce damage taken, but giving them a full tank spec doesn't make much sense.

    Sucks, but if you can't deal with that, you don't belong in the role of healer or tank. In fact, if you can't absolutely deal with others making mistakes, you probably don't belong in groups at all.
    That's a bit of a heavy handed statement to make.
    It is a fact of life that in most groups tanks and healers tend to work harder than other people and compensate for other people's mistakes. Is it so wrong of tanks and healers to feel wronged when they see that other people don't work as hard as they do?

  8. #168
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMOmaxi View Post
    If warlocks are able to tank as good as the other classes, then their ability to tank from range will make all other tank classes irrelevant.
    If warlocks are not able to tank as good as the other classes, then what's the point outside of a few niche encounters?
    Obviously any tanking spec for a class (whether existing or new, whether warlock or not) will end up being a primarily melee spec. Think boomkins with their ranged moonfires/wraths, in tank spec they don't really use those attacks and use mainly melee attacks.

    And obviously all specs marked "tank" are designed to be able to tank all content.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMOmaxi View Post
    It is a fact of life that in most groups tanks and healers tend to work harder than other people and compensate for other people's mistakes. Is it so wrong of tanks and healers to feel wronged when they see that other people don't work as hard as they do?
    Maybe you can think it's wrong, but if you can't deal with the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Seriously coming from a healer, 90% of those complaining and bitching about every little thing need to just shut up and heal.

    ---

    P.S. I am not afraid to use vote-kick in instances and yeah, LFR wipes can frustrate me, but after having been in truly terrible groups and then been in not-so-bad groups where I did do an extra bit of work to make the group kill the boss, most of the time people who are complaining are just... complaining.

    If a mistake happens and you lose your head, maybe you need to get off the computer for a bit. If someone's obviously trolling or (my litmus test) obviously IRL stupid, then generally the group (and not just you) will notice and kick them.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-22 at 03:07 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by MMOmaxi View Post
    It is a fact of life that in most groups tanks and healers tend to work harder than other people and compensate for other people's mistakes. Is it so wrong of tanks and healers to feel wronged when they see that other people don't work as hard as they do?
    I'm not sure I'd call that fact, I've known a fair few tanks that consider their job pretty easy (tabbing out to change their music playlists on Heroic Empress no less), and dps constantly have the "fire under their feet" feeling of constantly needing to improve, your dps is never the best you can do, thus you're always failing. Tanks, once they reach the point they're not dying, their next aim is generally to do more damage, and you'd have to be doing really bad damage to get people on your back about that.

    That said, if you're stressing out over your group not putting in enough effort / making mistakes and being unhappy about having to cover for them, then perhaps you're in a guild that you shouldn't be in - you either need a group playing at a higher level / where everyones taking things as seriously, or a group that's at a friendly enough level that you don't mind covering for other people.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Obviously any tanking spec for a class (whether existing or new, whether warlock or not) will end up being a primarily melee spec. Think boomkins with their ranged moonfires/wraths, in tank spec they don't really use those attacks and use mainly melee attacks.

    And obviously all specs marked "tank" are designed to be able to tank all content.
    I think it's a pretty important consideration, especially with Warlocks, that if you're demanding a tanking spec, you are by proxy going to lead to demands for a melee DPS spec to sit alongside it. It's just one of those expected things; if you play a class to tank, you will attract players who like concept of melee Warlock, but not so much the responsibility of tanking.

    While I think there's definitely room in the game for another class with a tanking and ranged DPS spec, as Druids are the only class that can do that; I don't think Warlocks should be it. It just makes so much more sense to build a new Demon Hunter class which could accomodate the Demon Hunter tanking concept, alongside a melee DPS spec as well as a ranged DPS spec; rather than to give us a 4th tree which will inevitibly only lead to calls for a fifth anyway.

    I also think removing the choice of those who made an 8 year old decision to role a pure from under their nose is pretty abhorrent, regardless of how much you protest that you're "giving them more choice" or simply calling them childish/selfish or whatever (which is probably as childish or selfish as demanding the spec for your own desires in any case).

  11. #171
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Not sure. Just keep in mind that for instance, on my main my tank spec is a 3rd spec (meaning that if I want to tank, I have to respec). Since Blizzard is stubborn and somehow thinks tri-spec is "bad" (don't even start me on this), the CTA bag hardly makes up for the respec cost alone, let alone the time I put in - both to run the instances, and to respec, and to maintain a 3rd spec.

    Also, since I primarily play healers, I like to have a DPS spec as a 2nd spec (I feel heal/DPS is more useful both for quests and for random groups than heal/tank), so if I really wanted to chain CTA bags I would have to level and gear a primary tanking alt to realistically get any reward. Then we're looking at the cost of maintaining and gearing multiple alts, especially in MOP, it's still pretty bad. Basically the CTA reward bag is pitiful and hardly worth the effort, unless you have a main toon that is a tank/off-tank.

    Off-Topic: Finally for queues, at least for healing, there might be some larger responsibility, but there's also the painfulness aspect. As a healer you really have few ways to make a shitty, slow run go faster. As a DPS you can actually affect the speed of a run quite significantly, especially in LFR.

    Possible Solutions: Add tri-spec in game, and give CTA bags for LFR as well.
    Hmm, I get what you mean, but I think Blizz dislikes tri-spec because they want specs to be an inherent part of the player rather than "Oh, I'll just go X tonight, and I have Y and Z on standby" (for tri-hybrids it's the most affecting but you could argue the same of any three specs). To be fair, Dual Spec was based around an issue that doesn't exist anymore, I mean it's incomparable to levelling a Holy Priest now to how it was in Vanilla -> Wrath. I can understand what they're doing. I think the CTA were based around people who have a tank spec ready but who choose to DPS because they dislike tanking, admittedly it affects DKs and Warriors moreso than Druids, Paladins and Monks (at least those who want to go Heal/DPS such as yourself). I thought that LFR was affected by CTAs too, a shame.


    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    Thinking about it, my first DK was made pre-4.1 in Cataclysm. While I had a sort of rough time learning to tank, I feel that the learning curve has gotten significantly easier now, especially with tanks basically being Superman, and the 500% threat modifier making it a lot easier to get aggro, and with rotations being significantly more like many DPS specs. Or maybe I'm just too veteran of a player now, I can't tell.
    Trying to remember Cataclysm (in general, I wasn't playing much of WoW in Cata), but in Wrath DKs were all over the place in terms of their hectic design and odd mechanics. First you had the "Any spec can tank" aspect that didn't truly work out, then you had the fact that any DK tank could have any two/three of multiple tanking utility that was spread through the specs, etc. Combine with what was a first (non-secondary bar resource, Runes, which we have now in all three Warlock specs, Eclipse bar, Chi, etc) and there are admittedly a lot of aspects of the class that couldn't be replicated in the post-MoP WoW. Additionally, there are things that pre-MoP did that MoP and after cannot do, like having a spec devoted to both tanking and DPS, which is why they split Feral tanking to Guardian.

    However, the trouble IMO is that in theory, with 6.0 starting, a fourth spec added to Warlocks (or a spec changed/removed and replaced with a tanking spec) is that you have a LOT of Warlocks who suddenly have to relearn their class. Combine that with in PvP the people who will have to deal with Warlocks becoming a LOT sturdier than they were before, and the amount of effort the Dev team would have to put into Warlocks to make them tank worthy (I disagree with Brusalk, I don't think currently DA is tank worthy. The active mitigation is pure "shields from X% damage" and not comparable to Shield Block/Barrier, WoG/SotR, Shuffle/Stagger etc. Combined with the amount of spells that are gonna be hard to have on a tank, like Soul Fire, Drain Life/Harvest Life, Unbound Will, the question of demons, etc) it just all seems like a HUGE journey to undertake for something that the class is so undeniably split over, and we only have the vocal minority of the class on MMO-Champ or the WoW forums, imagine how the non-forum using Warlock punters will take it if the class is changed, but I digress. I'm honestly in the band of "Look, we could use this effort to make Warlock tanks, giving some happiness and some pain, or we could make a brand new class and use the mechanics we'd have used to the new class, we have none of the drawbacks of having to change an already existing class, we know that people will roll this class because even though Monks are slowly gaining pop, they're still growing in population, and we'll have new and fun aesthetics to make for the players".

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 04:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I also think removing the choice of those who made an 8 year old decision to role a pure from under their nose is pretty abhorrent, regardless of how much you protest that you're "giving them more choice" or simply calling them childish/selfish or whatever (which is probably as childish or selfish as demanding the spec for your own desires in any case).
    I think there's gonna be a response to this along the lines of "Well I didn't know what a pure was when I started playing, why should I be punished", it happens a lot in these threads, which to pre-empt is kinda a silly argument because the people who say such things must have some point learned what a pure was and stuck with their warlock, whether that was at level 32 or 90
    Last edited by Queen Ultima; 2013-06-22 at 03:34 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    I think there's gonna be a response to this along the lines of "Well I didn't know what a pure was when I started playing, why should I be punished", it happens a lot in these threads, which to pre-empt is kinda a silly argument because the people who say such things must have some point learned what a pure was and stuck with their warlock, whether that was at level 32 or 90
    I could kinda understand that argument in Classic when it took a month to get to 32... Post TBC, less so.

  13. #173
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I could kinda understand that argument in Classic when it took a month to get to 32... Post TBC, less so.
    Oh, I just used 32 as a random example of "It doesn't matter if whether levellng or at level cap when you learned what a pure was, you always had the option of rerolling", especially with heirlooms, or even guild experience bonuses which only require you to click accept to a random levelling guild invite which you are usually spammed with when you make a character.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    I think there's gonna be a response to this along the lines of "Well I didn't know what a pure was when I started playing, why should I be punished", it happens a lot in these threads, which to pre-empt is kinda a silly argument because the people who say such things must have some point learned what a pure was and stuck with their warlock, whether that was at level 32 or 90
    I'm not sure how much of a defense that is, classes shouldn't be shaped around a new players ignorance to what roles your class can and can't fill - rolling a warrior and then exclaiming that "oh, I didn't know warriors wouldn't be able to shoot things to death!" isn't much justification for them becoming hunters.

    Besides, warlocks are pretty clearly casters. Tanks aren't exactly associated with men in dresses throwing magic.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Ultima View Post
    Oh, I just used 32 as a random example of "It doesn't matter if whether levellng or at level cap when you learned what a pure was, you always had the option of rerolling", especially with heirlooms, or even guild experience bonuses which only require you to click accept to a random levelling guild invite which you are usually spammed with when you make a character.
    Yep, get it was a random example, just emphasising the difference in levelling speed back then compared to today. Levelling was a considerable investment of time, and realising 'too late' would be a very big deal. If you met someone with a level capped alt back then it was like "Woah", now if they don't have 3 alts you think they're weird

  16. #176
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'm not sure I'd call that fact, I've known a fair few tanks that consider their job pretty easy (tabbing out to change their music playlists on Heroic Empress no less), and dps constantly have the "fire under their feet" feeling of constantly needing to improve, your dps is never the best you can do, thus you're always failing. Tanks, once they reach the point they're not dying, their next aim is generally to do more damage, and you'd have to be doing really bad damage to get people on your back about that.
    Agreed. I do concede that DPS is probably the easiest role to learn; that said, I do think it's the hardest to master.

  17. #177
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yep, get it was a random example, just emphasising the difference in levelling speed back then compared to today. Levelling was a considerable investment of time, and realising 'too late' would be a very big deal. If you met someone with a level capped alt back then it was like "Woah", now if they don't have 3 alts you think they're weird
    Heh, my bad xD I remember the days when I thought a Succubus was a rare and illusive demon. And now, she's my bestest friend/demon.

  18. #178
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I also think removing the choice of those who made an 8 year old decision to role a pure from under their nose is pretty abhorrent, regardless of how much you protest that you're "giving them more choice" or simply calling them childish/selfish or whatever (which is probably as childish or selfish as demanding the spec for your own desires in any case).
    1) That choice isn't removed as we discussed there is only dual-spec. Hence a class with two DPS specs means you can have your pure: just make both your specs the DPS specs.

    2) The only arguments I've heard against having pures in the game at all are: a) I like having 3 DPS specs, and b) I don't want to be pressured to tank/heal.

    However, for a) I contend that 3 DPS specs is bad whether or not you have a tank/heal spec or not. For b), my contention is this: If all classes were hybrids, you would have no more pressure to tank/heal than you do now. If anything, you'd have less.

  19. #179
    If you get lock tanks, then I want rogue tanks.
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Agreed. I do concede that DPS is probably the easiest role to learn; that said, I do think it's the hardest to master.
    I think one of the biggest things is just that it's hard to tell if a tank is good or great, once they've hit the point where they're not dying / a pain for healers to keep alive and they're doing moderate dps, it's hard to see much improvement, even if it is there. DPS constantly have to be both fighting their fellow dpsers for ranks within the raid, and themselves to push harder each week and improve your dps figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    2) The only arguments I've heard against having pures in the game at all are: a) I like having 3 DPS specs, and b) I don't want to be pressured to tank/heal.

    However, for a) I contend that 3 DPS specs is bad whether or not you have a tank/heal spec or not. For b), my contention is this: If all classes were hybrids, you would have no more pressure to tank/heal than you do now. If anything, you'd have less.
    I presume that's a typo and you mean "arguments for having pures"?

    I like being a pure, it's given me 3 different ways to approach an encounter, allowing me to minmax my performance, which has been vital in some encounters (hah, affliction on spine), and at others just let me flat out perform infinitely better (demo on council, destro on horridon etc). It's also let me change what I play over the years, despite changes, without ever being left without a dps spec I enjoy - I've always raided as affliction, but spent a lot of time in TBC and WOTLK and Cata as demo, since I didn't enjoy destro, this expansion has seen me as mostly affliction, but playing a fair bit of destro since I don't like what they've done to affliction or demo - if I were to lose any one of those specs I'd have been left for a period of time throughout my time warlocking where I probably didn't have a dps spec I enjoyed, let alone a spec that was effective for some fights.

    As for the second point, my guilds had plenty of turbulence with tanks over the years, as one of the more stable members of the bunch, I'd feel obliged to tank at some point or another if the option was available to me, I'm not going to make a bunch of friends cancel a raid when I can spec into being a tank, I don't hate them enough.

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