Okay. Blizzard needs to really make Warlock Tanks a 100% reality

[Deleted]

We're not asking for a Glyph. We're asking for a tank spec for a class that's been tanking at least 1 boss every tier since BC.

Which I'd argue is worse, since then you open the door to everyone asking for a 4th spec, which is like adding what, 4 new classes at once, while also getting them to mesh into existing classes?

[Deleted]

We're not asking for a Glyph. We're asking for a tank spec for a class that's been tanking at least 1 boss every tier since BC.

But, equally, has never been said to be a true tank class, and has been unable to tank the majority of bosses. I think having an off-tank capability is far more likely than a full-on tanking spec (honestly, right now I'd prefer DA to have a cooldown comparable to Heart of the Wild for Druids to off-tank to end this debate once and for all).

[nightfalls]

But, equally, has never been said to be a true tank class, and has been unable to tank the majority of bosses. I think having an off-tank capability is far more likely than a full-on tanking spec (honestly, right now I'd prefer DA to have a cooldown comparable to Heart of the Wild for Druids to off-tank to end this debate once and for all).

What's the point of that? Might as well just have an actual tanking spec if that's the case. And an off-tank cooldown for the DPS specs.

(and that non-tank-looking DA graphic could become a cosmetic glyph for all specs)

[Pisholina]

When Blizzard changed Death Knights to give them a proper tanking spec, they removed the ability for Unholy and Frost to tank, and for Blood to DPS. I like the change overall but, as a DPS Blood in WotLK, I was upset. Do you really want another change like that?

Also, if Blizzard implemented Warlock Tanks, they'd also have to implement Shaman tanks because they were also requested a lot, and some players acually managed to pull it off. Then, Hunters would be asking for a tanking spec, as well as Rogues and Mages. After that, healers would QQ about there obly being 5 healing and 10 tanking classes, so we would also get healing Death Knights with blood magic, Warriors with bandages, Blood Mages, Hunters shootong fruits and veggies at allies to heal them etc.

[Teye]

Also, if Blizzard implemented Warlock Tanks, they'd also have to implement Shaman tanks because they were also requested a lot, and some players acually managed to pull it off. Then, Hunters would be asking for a tanking spec, as well as Rogues and Mages. After that, healers would QQ about there obly being 5 healing and 10 tanking classes, so we would also get healing Death Knights with blood magic, Warriors with bandages, Blood Mages, Hunters shootong fruits and veggies at allies to heal them etc.

I'm so sick of hearing this childish logic. Seriously, everyone who is against Warlock tanks spits out this same line of dribble about how "everyone will want a tank spec for their class". Shamans finally having an Earth based tanking spec is logical. Warlocks having a Tank spec is logical for the 765849 reasons listed in this thread. Hunters healing and Mages tanking isn't logical, and people need to stop trying to make it a valid argument.

[Chrispotter]

We're not asking for a Glyph. We're asking for a tank spec for a class that's been tanking at least 1 boss every tier since BC.

What bosses have we "tanked" in the last 3 tiers? Im all for Tanking Spec for warlocks, im just interested if what your saying is true or not.

[Aschark]

When Blizzard changed Death Knights to give them a proper tanking spec, they removed the ability for Unholy and Frost to tank, and for Blood to DPS. I like the change overall but, as a DPS Blood in WotLK, I was upset. Do you really want another change like that?

Also, if Blizzard implemented Warlock Tanks, they'd also have to implement Shaman tanks because they were also requested a lot, and some players acually managed to pull it off. Then, Hunters would be asking for a tanking spec, as well as Rogues and Mages. After that, healers would QQ about there obly being 5 healing and 10 tanking classes, so we would also get healing Death Knights with blood magic, Warriors with bandages, Blood Mages, Hunters shootong fruits and veggies at allies to heal them etc.

dawg you just went full slippery slope

[stomination]

And most people forget that changing a pure to a hybrid doesn't stop you from dps'ing at all.

But it does change one thing that matters to pure dps classes. Rogues, Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks usually are the top dps in raids. Maybe not on every fight but on most. Taking that pure dps thing away and warlocks dps will go down to be balanced with the hybrids.

[crakerjack]

I guess im down for Warlock tanks, as long as their damage is nerfed beyond shit when they are a tank. there's no logical reason to have a huge tank minion and still be able to put out the same dps. Massive reduction in damage to compensate for the tank minion... sure, i'm down with that. It's still a stupid idea... it's more stupid than shaman tanks or any other ideas people have suggested. Warlocks will be casters, deal with it, you want to tank... reroll.

[tangers58]

Last thing we need are more specs. Game is already watered down enough. If locks get a 4th spec then everyone will want one, and we already have 5 classes that can tank.

[nightfalls]

But it does change one thing that matters to pure dps classes. Rogues, Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks usually are the top dps in raids. Maybe not on every fight but on most. Taking that pure dps thing away and warlocks dps will go down to be balanced with the hybrids.

Now I know you play a shaman, so let me ask... is this a bad thing?

I guess im down for Warlock tanks, as long as their damage is nerfed beyond shit when they are a tank.

Why would it be, if anything, it would be buffed.

[stomination]

With the recent addition of AV giving a vengeance like effect, the only thing preventing warlocks from being full-fledged tanks with Dark Apotheosis is the artificial removal of Crit Immunity from DA form, as well as the change of Provocation to an actual taunt, and a numbers pass.


You can downplay how close warlocks are to being actual tanks as much as you want with a false slippery slope argument, but at this point warlocks could easily tank with a few, extremely easy, basic changes (which are essentially reverting old changes).

And so can every other spec.

Shamans- Frostshock rockbiter shields
Hunters- Say hello to your new main tank Cuddles the cat.
Mages- Buff that Iceward. Make that ice armor the shit.
Rogues- Combo points=longer lasting evasions! Kinda like how tanks are now with needing something to activate Shield block savage defense blah blah blah


New class Demon Hunter......Well hell you have Demon in your name and hunter so shouldnt you be able to be both tanks....Like cmon Cuddles can be main tank and I can be offtank with my demon range powers of immense whining.

---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 02:45 PM ----------

Now I know you play a shaman, so let me ask... is this a bad thing?

In terms of the large amount of the community that is crying because how KJC nerf will affect their precious dps....Then yes it would seem that it will be a bad thing for most avid pure dps players.

[Jessicka]

And so can every other spec.

Shamans- Frostshock rockbiter shields
Hunters- Say hello to your new main tank Cuddles the cat.
Mages- Buff that Iceward. Make that ice armor the shit.
Rogues- Combo points=longer lasting evasions! Kinda like how tanks are now with needing something to activate Shield block savage defense blah blah blah


New class Demon Hunter......Well hell you have Demon in your name and hunter so shouldnt you be able to be both tanks....Like cmon Cuddles can be main tank and I can be offtank with my demon range powers of immense whining.

In terms of the large amount of the community that is crying because how KJC nerf will affect their precious dps....Then yes it would seem that it will be a bad thing for most avid pure dps players.

I'll add that, in regard to the simple changes Brusalk mentions insofar as reverting the changes that were made in Beta - those changes were made, because they were grossly overpowered, and they were so, because they bore no relation to the active mitigation model of tanking that the other tanking specs use and which the game was balanced around. Those changes really aren't that simple.

[Teye]

What bosses have we "tanked" in the last 3 tiers? Im all for Tanking Spec for warlocks, im just interested if what your saying is true or not.

Spirit Kings and Lei Shi were both Warlock tanked last tier. I've kited on Heroic Tortos, and tons of Warlocks Meta tank nests on Heroic Jikun. Thinking more about it, we didn't tank anything in Dragon Soul, unless you count Meta tanking the big add on Heroic Zon'ozz. In Firelands we Meta tanked the birds on Alysrazor (500k dps anyone?) and in T11 I tanked Heroic Whelps and tanked adds on normal Maloriak. In T10 it was Blood Council, T9 we didn't tank anything that I can think of, but I'm sure we could have tanked adds on a fight or two. Naxx, we Hateful Strike tanked (Can't really count that) and pet tanked something (I can't remember what, I just know we did it.). Sunwell it was the Twins, Tempest Keep it was the Astromancer. That's as far back as I care to go, but there's probably more, and there's probably much better examples than the ones I gave.

And so can every other spec.

Shamans- Frostshock rockbiter shields
Hunters- Say hello to your new main tank Cuddles the cat.
Mages- Buff that Iceward. Make that ice armor the shit.
Rogues- Combo points=longer lasting evasions! Kinda like how tanks are now with needing something to activate Shield block savage defense blah blah blah

UGH, I have to respond to this argument for a 2nd time in a few hours...
Shamans- again, viable argument, they should get an Earth based tanking spec. They almost deserve it as much as we do.
Hunters - Pet tanking is never, EVER a good argument. A Pet doesn't move or think properly, and it simply doesn't make any sense at all with the structure of this game.
Mages - No, just no.
Rogues - Oh, you mean Monks? Yeah, they already have combo points for evasion. Not going to happen again.

I guess im down for Warlock tanks, as long as their damage is nerfed beyond shit when they are a tank. there's no logical reason to have a huge tank minion and still be able to put out the same dps. Massive reduction in damage to compensate for the tank minion... sure, i'm down with that. It's still a stupid idea... it's more stupid than shaman tanks or any other ideas people have suggested. Warlocks will be casters, deal with it, you want to tank... reroll.

We're not looking to pet tank, bro. Also, our current tank form has the dps of a wet noodle. It would be buffed dramatically.

Last thing we need are more specs. Game is already watered down enough. If locks get a 4th spec then everyone will want one, and we already have 5 classes that can tank.

People said this when Druids got a 4th spec, yet the only class verbally rallying for a 4th Spec is Warlocks. Probably because we rightfully should already have one.

[Deleted]

We're not asking for a Glyph. We're asking for a tank spec for a class that's been tanking at least 1 boss every tier since BC.

What did we tank in Naxx? Ulduar? ToC? BOT? ToT4W? etc.etc.etc.

You should say, we tanked a boss in SSC, in TK, in BT, in Sunwell and in ICC. Narrows it down to 4 tiers, out of 16. 5 bosses out of lolhowmany

[A Dark Knight]

tanking nest for 5 sec isnt tanking teye, nor is kitting considered tanking, jsut casue u can survive more than other classes running away doesnt mean you are a tank.

Also we should get a tank spec and mages is "No, just no"

[Deleted]

Spirit Kings and Lei Shi were both Warlock tanked last tier. I've kited on Heroic Tortos, and tons of Warlocks Meta tank nests on Heroic Jikun. Thinking more about it, we didn't tank anything in Dragon Soul, unless you count Meta tanking the big add on Heroic Zon'ozz. In Firelands we Meta tanked the birds on Alysrazor (500k dps anyone?) and in T11 I tanked Heroic Whelps and tanked adds on normal Maloriak.

I'm not sure any of those can be even remotely put in the same catagory as Leotheras / blood council / twin emps, there's a difference between tanking something and it being intended.

As Filth nicely posted, it's been a grand total of 5 or so bosses that we've been intended to tank, if we start including fights we've kited or tanked for a few seconds, then hell - hunters have been doing that since UBRS.

[Teye]

What did we tank in Naxx? Ulduar? ToC? BOT? ToT4W? etc.etc.etc.

You should say, we tanked a boss in SSC, in TK, in BT, in Sunwell and in ICC. Narrows it down to 4 tiers, out of 16. 5 bosses out of lolhowmany

Bro, let me make this simple for you. If we gain a Tanking spec, your precious dps won't go to shit and no one is going to force you to tank or re-roll. After reading this thread, those are literally the only two reasons you've got for not wanting a Warlock tanking spec.

[Raugnaut]

If they wanted you to be a full time tank, they would:
1) Make it baseline, not a glyph.
2) Remove Demo's ability to be a DPS spec.
3) Create tank cloth for only you to wear.

Allright, I need to make a number of things clear, because this, right here... Is ignorant of numerous things blizz has ALREADY done in the game.

1) Baseline, not glyph, yea. It would most likely be made a 4th spec, akin to how feral was seperated into Guardian/Feral.

2) There would be no need to remove Demo's dpsing ability. Remove the DA glyph, and make it a 4th spec. Easily done, and Demo doesn't have retarded survivability at a button push anymore.

3) There would be no need to make tank cloth. Blizzard seems to be moving AWAY from dodge/parry for tanks. Guardians, Monks, and Paladins avoid Dodge/Parry at nearly all costs- its thier worst defensive stats when compared to hit/expertise/haste/mastery, and crit for Monks/Paladins. Only Warriors and DKs still use dodge/parry- Warriors also want to hard cap expertise/hit, as well as get mastery. DKs are the only tanks that don't really care much about hit/expertise- those are more DPS stats for DKs, it gives about the same amount of DS/min as haste, but gives more dps. 1/5 tanks that actually use "pure" tanking stats, 2/5 that use dodge/parry. The majority of the tanking classes use dps gear for thier tank set.

Warlock tanks would most likely favor hit cap, mastery, and haste. Blizz COULD throw in spirit->defense conversion, thus making 4 specs that can use spirit cloth, but its not 100% likely to happen.



Now, heres a little trivia that not many people know- during the MoP beta, Warlocks were a full-fledged tank for about a month. They could tank bosses just as well as other tanks, take about the same amount of damage as other tanks, and generate about the same amount of threat as other tanks. There were 3 changes blizz made, though, that turned Warlock tanks into sub-par tanks. The first is that they removed the crit immunity from warlock tanks (biggest right here). The second is that they removed Provocation, the warlock tank's taunt, from working on raid bosses. The final change was the change to vengeance to be 2% of unmitigated damage, compared to 5% of mitigated damage. These 3 changes turned Warlocks from a soak-tank that could tank as well as any other tanks into a subpar tank.

When warlock tanks will happen, they will get a new, 4th spec, most likely called Apotheosis. Picking the spec would grant them Dark Apotheosis, which would give 500% extra threat, Provocation, 15% extra magical/physical DR, gain crit immunity, and transform Shadow Bolt into Demonic Slash. Shadow Ward would turn into Fury Ward (Costs 200 Demonic Fury, absorbs x, which is either= to Stamina or 2x SP, no CD, and can stack) around lvl 30ish, when other tanks get thier active mitigation. They would most likely get a passive that increased thier armor, causing them to be close to armor cap (~70% DR vs bosses to allow for growth over tiers). Soul Fire would be changed into an instant cast DF dump for more damage, comparable to how other tanks have a resource dump for +damage and -mitigation (Heroic Strike, BoF, NS/HS, Maul). Soul Shatter would work as a 6 second AoE taunt, rather then a threat dump. They would gain Vengeance akin to other tanks, except that it grants SP instead of AP, and thier mastery would increase the passive DR from DA by x% (~5% baseline), increase the amount of absorption from FW (~30% baseline) and increase the amount of baseline healing from Drain Life/Harvest Life (~.5% extra life regen baseline).

A few other changes would be things like Demonic Slash's cooldown is affected by haste (4.5 base recharge, 3 charges, generates 80 Demonic Fury), a passive that gives you a chance to generate double the amount of Demonic Fury based on crit chance (making crit a mitigation-based rating) increased HP (They would have the most HP out of all tanks), and old Soul Link, causing 20% of all damage to be transfered to the pet (If the warlock takes Soul Link, it becomes a 8% baseline mitigation or something. If the warlock takes Sacrifice, it increases health by 10% in addition to w/e Soul Link does). Finally, each pet out will do a different thing to help out with mitigation- Felhunters would generate extra demonic fury. Imps would give a powerful heal to the warlock tank. Succubus would grant a 20% damage reduction, 1 min CD to the warlock. Voidwalker would be able to help tank.

Thus, we would have a tank that could have multiple, different playstyles in 1 spec. Do you sacrifice your pet to gain increased health? Do you take a baseline mitigation, or a huge absorb, or the most powerful 50% damage reduction CD? If you use a pet, which would you have, more damage mitigated, a large healing cooldown, a small mitigation cooldown, or Blueberry tank?

All this would be awesome, and Warlocks would still have the option to dps as Demo.

[Theronus]

Allright, I need to make a number of things clear, because this, right here... Is ignorant of numerous things blizz has ALREADY done in the game.

1) Baseline, not glyph, yea. It would most likely be made a 4th spec, akin to how feral was seperated into Guardian/Feral.

2) There would be no need to remove Demo's dpsing ability. Remove the DA glyph, and make it a 4th spec. Easily done, and Demo doesn't have retarded survivability at a button push anymore.

3) There would be no need to make tank cloth. Blizzard seems to be moving AWAY from dodge/parry for tanks. Guardians, Monks, and Paladins avoid Dodge/Parry at nearly all costs- its thier worst defensive stats when compared to hit/expertise/haste/mastery, and crit for Monks/Paladins. Only Warriors and DKs still use dodge/parry- Warriors also want to hard cap expertise/hit, as well as get mastery. DKs are the only tanks that don't really care much about hit/expertise- those are more DPS stats for DKs, it gives about the same amount of DS/min as haste, but gives more dps. 1/5 tanks that actually use "pure" tanking stats, 2/5 that use dodge/parry. The majority of the tanking classes use dps gear for thier tank set.

-snip-

Exactly this, especially the bolded part.
The 4th spec could also have "Demon Aspects" spells instead of pets, they could work like stances/presences.