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  1. #1

    [FIRE] Armour Swapping for First Combustion

    So a while ago I was watching a Fire Mage stream Heroic Lei Shen; he used Mage Armour on the pull and once he had used Combustion, he swapped back to Molten Armour for the rest of the fight. How viable is this? I've spoken to another Mage in my guild about this and he said that all the top geared Mages were doing it; have no reason to doubt him but this was the first time (outside of the stream) I'd heard anyone else talk about it unless I've missed something!

    What do you guys thing... do you do it? If viable, what levels of gear is it viable? Here's my armory, is my gear sufficient enough to be doing this?

    I'd love to be able to this SimC if it's possible, but I'm not so proficient at it! My plan is to test it myself during HC Qon / Twins and normal Lei Shen on Monday.
    Last edited by Kasc; 2013-06-21 at 03:31 AM. Reason: Grammar and stuff

  2. #2
    It's very viable and can net you very insane combustions, afaik Kuznam started the trend and people have been following him. With the armor glyph it's like a 1 second recast so it's nothing. You will have alot of extra crit from trinket procs anyways to off set the 5 % from molten armor. The only top mage that I know of that isn't doing it is Vykina.

    And on fights where you can cleave the first combustion it's just trough the roof, (Council/ Tortos for example).

    Your gear seems more than fine for doing this it should only be a problem at 535 or lower I guess where you will suffer to much from the crit loss.

    I would recommend doing it for every Alter Time combustion but not to bother for the odd ones with only PoM.

    I don't know about SimC but SimC has been playing up for mages for a long time so not sure if its worth bothering.

  3. #3
    Using this method you hit vastly higher combustions, even more so if you are running a mastery build after the 5036 haste cap. Good RNG nets you a 300-400k ignite, leading to ~10mil single target combustion.

  4. #4
    Gotta try this when I'm back at Fire on Tortos and got my epic cloak. Spreading such a combustion to turtles will just be insane oO

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpville View Post
    Good RNG nets you a 300-400k ignite
    As much as I'd love this to be true, I find this extremely hard to believe. Do you have any logs of this? My biggest non-Mage Armour ignite has been for around 200k.
    Last edited by Kasc; 2013-06-21 at 06:04 AM.

  6. #6
    The reason vykina doesn't armour swap is down to gear. Kuznam is (almost) BiS thunderforfed, vykina is 5 ilvls behind. Between them they agreed the accepted ilvl is 545 before you should even think about using mage armour. I have this from a more than reliable source.
    Next tier i can imagine this being the norm.

  7. #7
    I am at 535 ilvl atm. I have been testing this on a few fights on pull council/tortos. And tbh it does not seem like i should be doing it, i have been getting just as high or even higher ignites with molten armor. But again this could be caused by less crits during my mage armour tries. I sit at around 48% crit raid buffed with molten and have seen ignites as high as 220-30k at max, and i am yet to beat that using mage armour.

    To me what furyspark is saying would make sense.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasc View Post
    As much as I'd love this to be true, I find this extremely hard to believe. Do you have any logs of this? My biggest non-Mage Armour ignite has been for around 200k.

    worldoflogs.co m/ reports/rt-qvz4pm7cz90pdvh7/spell/83853/?s=6061&e=6194


    That's a single combustion, 10.6 million damage, no tricks or would of been higher... (feel free to look around for the other fights too!)


    I'd say that obviously gear has some effect on how succesfull you'll be using mage armor at the start but, the main thing is

    a) Your trinkets.

    b) Your actual timing.


    It's also viable from my experience to do it on every combust that lines up with alter time (Usually you'll have 2 or 3 of those in a fight at this point in the expansion and use pot on one of them, either the one with the best trinkets up when your warrior if you have one pops skullbanner or if you aren't timewarping on the pull.)


    If i say have hydra and meta gem up on my non alter time combustion, i'll switch to mage armor for that too, i find it quite viable. Also use mage armor on primordius if you get a crit buff there, it'll buff your ignite damage for the entire fight by alot.

  9. #9
    its ~28% more damage from ignite instead of 6,5% crit for pyro in bis gear. worth it if you cast at least 4-5 pyros.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    its ~28% more damage from ignite instead of 6,5% crit for pyro in bis gear. worth it if you cast at least 4-5 pyros.
    Depends on your gear and trinkes. If you have 2 trinkets that proc int, you'll gain much extra crit also so you don't need molten armor for good pyro proccs. And Mage armor gives mastery which yields bigger ignites and bigger combustions. I'd say that for prepull mage armor, you'll need like 530+ itemlevels and both int-trinkets (council + hydra) to be really worth it

  11. #11
    I only do it if I know that both of my trinkets are going to proc. And even then it can fuck up ur rng, but not by much.

  12. #12
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    I'm at 49.6% crit raidbuffed, and if my trinkets and meta proc on the pull, I can get around 250-350k ignite with a bit of luck (no hero). Usually it's between 180-250k. I have also had over 200k ignites on the 2nd alter time with only 1 trinket proc (Cha-yes).

  13. #13
    This seems like more work than i want to put in.

  14. #14
    It's all very interesting, definitely want to try this out on some farm. I'll report back.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiandrad View Post
    This seems like more work than i want to put in.
    Then don't do it and disregard this thread.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Furyspark View Post
    The reason vykina doesn't armour swap is down to gear. Kuznam is (almost) BiS thunderforfed, vykina is 5 ilvls behind. Between them they agreed the accepted ilvl is 545 before you should even think about using mage armor. I have this from a more than reliable source.
    Next tier i can imagine this being the norm.
    Not too sure about this. I am 535 atm and I have been testing this quite thoroughly. I have determined swapping on pull every time and depending on trinkets every AT combo is a pretty significant dps increase.

    Previously, without swapping, on Council (normal) for instance, I was pulling about 750k tops at beginning. This past week I utilized the swap method and peaked at about 1.3 million (logs show amost 2 million, not sure why that is):

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ab...?s=2854&e=3082

    Maybe the stars just alligned perfectly for me, but I am quite meticulous in my calculations and parsing or min/maxing and I am quite certain that swapping, even at my ilvl is a dps increase if done properly.
    Last edited by Dusteyy; 2013-06-22 at 08:37 AM.

  16. #16
    That's pretty much as you said, the stars just aligned for you.

    Vykina is a friend of mine and I've asked him personally about this and his answer was that with the current 4-set this is viable at 545 ilvl or higher.

    Next tier when we drop the four set this might change though, however I do see us swapping in BiS gear. Or with any luck going frost \o/

  17. #17
    i dont see how this is only viable above 545. 3000static mastery gives 7.5% ignite. 12% is the basic ignite. so especially on low ilvl its an increase of 60% (with 0 mastery on gear)
    so swapping to 3000mastery will get even worse with more mastery on gear.(5.4)

    obviously with 30% crit or sth like that you will have problems to get 4-5 pyros in your alter time combustion sequence. but with 40 or 45% crit mastery should be always better on average
    with 530 you can get 40% crit selfbuffed without any problems.
    Last edited by ralikonik; 2013-06-22 at 12:40 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    i dont see how this is only viable above 545. 3000static mastery gives 7.5% ignite. 12% is the basic ignite. so especially on low ilvl its an increase of 60% (with 0 mastery on gear)
    so swapping to 3000mastery will get even worse with more mastery on gear.(5.4)
    I agree, the more mastery you have the more it devalues armor swapping but for now in 545 gear it's still very good beacuse we don't have that much mastery yet but very high crit lvls.

    In lower item lvls 530-535 it's very good if you get the crits but you risk not critting as much with no 5 % extra crit from armor, it's more of a gamble but the results if you do crit alot is very amazing for the gear level.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabsy View Post
    worldoflogs.co m/ reports/rt-qvz4pm7cz90pdvh7/spell/83853/?s=6061&e=6194


    That's a single combustion, 10.6 million damage, no tricks or would of been higher... (feel free to look around for the other fights too!)
    When people say 200k combustion they generally mean "My non-crit combustion ticks were hitting for 200k and my ignite was hitting for 400k at the time i hit combustion." rather than "the weighted average of my combustion crits and non-crits was 200k"

    However, those are still some very nice combustions there.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Me222 View Post
    When people say 200k combustion they generally mean "My non-crit combustion ticks were hitting for 200k and my ignite was hitting for 400k at the time i hit combustion." rather than "the weighted average of my combustion crits and non-crits was 200k"

    However, those are still some very nice combustions there.
    Ignite hitting for 400k? Only time I saw a 400k ignite was on horridon, last phase.

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