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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Absolutely. Both my vanilla legendaries (Sulfuras and Thunderfury) were nothing more than random soaks, and things haven't changed up 'til now. Anyone who puts in the same time deserves the same reward from this particular effort.
    So you're saying LFR requires the same time and effort as Normal/HM? Clearly they're all on the same level since they all deserve the same loot(IE: legendaries)

  2. #302
    Herald of the Titans Auxis's Avatar
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    What if - WHAT IF!... Everyone gets the questline, but you can only get the first form of the legendary if your in LFR/normal/heroic (the quest items or whatnot could drop in all difficulties), but the next forms require items/credit from Normal/Heroic difficulty?
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  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigPapi View Post
    So you're saying LFR requires the same time and effort as Normal/HM? Clearly they're all on the same level since they all deserve the same loot(IE: legendaries)
    The people working on Normal and Heroic progression do the LFR versions of whatever bosses they didn't clear so this entire train of thought is entirely irrelevant. Those people are working harder by choice and filling in the blanks the same way other people are.

    Also a full LFR geared player with a legendary and a full Heroic geared player with a legendary will still be insanely far apart stats-wise.
    Last edited by mistahwilshire; 2013-06-19 at 02:16 AM.

  4. #304
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    What if - WHAT IF!... Everyone gets the questline, but you can only get the first form of the legendary if your in LFR/normal/heroic (the quest items or whatnot could drop in all difficulties), but the next forms require items/credit from Normal/Heroic difficulty?
    I like the idea of each difficulty dropping an item that "empowers" the legendary item to become more powerful. i.e. Let's say, 610 or so for LFR, as the baseline. The Flex item could make that 615, the normal 625, and the Heroic 630 or so. That way, every gets a legendary, and everyone has an oppurtunity to even improve that if they want to do stuff, and it's in a way that doesn't exactly "end" the storyline for LFR players. The "Empowering" items could be entirely outside of the questline themselves, and just be like an item the legendary "consumes". Everybody wins.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Legendaries have never ever ever been "hard" to get. They've been "random" to get. The current formula continues that trend exactly.
    Well to be fair that RNG was gated behind a level of raid progression and your place in the guild, and I see both factors as been more important than the RNG when it came to receiving those items.

    Sulfuras wasn't awesome because you got it with luck, it was awesome because you got it from Ragnaros.
    Glaives wasn't awesome because you got them with luck, they were awesome because you got them from Illidan.
    Thori'dal wasn't awesome because you got it with luck, it was awesome because you got it from Kil'Jaedan.
    Etc

    I don't mind the current time/commitment based model, but I do feel that the 'legendary' feeling of acquiring it is lost on certain segments of the playerbase. Unless you as a heroic/normal raider are able to completely separate yourself from LFR as option, the legendary is simply a chore and set of motions to go through to gain greater power, rather than being gated behind any actual challenge. If you are an LFR raider who doesn't really care about the lore anymore since you've killed the bosses and mostly use it as your source of character progression, it is once again a chore and a set of motions to go through to get an extra bit of power. The only people who would still get a kick out of the legendary chain are people like me who still get giddy over things like getting the blessing of all of the Celestials, every other person doing the blessing quests at the same time as me just simply went and clicked their gong without waiting, or simply spoke to Wrathion and flew off, it doesn't look like they're having fun to me.

    Blizzard's challenge with accessible PVE raid content now is to be able to keep it engaging and rewarding to all kinds of players:
    - Hardcores & Casuals
    - Heroic, normal, flex & LFR raiders
    - Lore nuts & power nuts
    - mixes of the above (Casual Heroic raiders do exist, so do hardcore LFR raiders, I view casual vs. hardcore as more a measure of time)

    How do you keep a legendary quest engaging and rewarding for all of these player groups while keeping it accessible to all player groups?
    - should difficulty of content translate to differences in the legendary chain/rewards?
    - could they provide more solo/group challenges which are as rewarding/difficult/possible to people with 500 ilvl as those with 540 ilvl?
    - what kind of balance do we need in regards to RNG/Time/Effort/Commitment?
    - what needs to happen so that NO players feel like legendaries are a chore?
    - what needs to happen so that players no longer feel that their legendaries aren't trivialised/overshadowed by people below/above their level of progression and play?

    It's not a simple problem. Difficulty needs to come with more incentive without letting people miss out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drudatz View Post
    dont you get tired doin the same raid every week sometimes without even advancing a bit AND
    once you got your legendary what are you gonna do with it when you done all the bosses? sit in sw/og and shine hey look im a leet hc player with a binary-legendary and feel like you ARCHIVED something? roflmao
    Some people do enjoy the gameplay and the comadarie that comes along with heroic raiding.
    Not advancing a bit can be stressful but where's a challenge without stress? I like challenge personally.
    Once (and if, I'm a casual heroic raider) I finish the tier I'll enjoy a job well done then get ready for blizzard's next delivery of content.
    And lastly, I don't think many people enjoy archiving things, many people enjoy achieving things though!


    Quote Originally Posted by Drudatz View Post
    How can you compare a bad shooter game to a RolePlayin-Game?
    thats like comparing a bike to a formel 1 car....
    HOW DARE YOU
    Last edited by Radio; 2013-06-19 at 02:36 AM.

  6. #306
    I don't mind LFR players getting it, but could we get a higher drop chance the higher difficulty it is? It's dissapointing putting in so much more effort (don't say it's not, heroic raiding IS more effort than lfr) yet still getting 1 secret a week on heroic modes.

    Something like:
    Heroic - 35% chance
    Normal - 30% chance
    Flex - 25% chance
    LFR - 20% chance

  7. #307
    Herald of the Titans Auxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I like the idea of each difficulty dropping an item that "empowers" the legendary item to become more powerful. i.e. Let's say, 610 or so for LFR, as the baseline. The Flex item could make that 615, the normal 625, and the Heroic 630 or so. That way, every gets a legendary, and everyone has an oppurtunity to even improve that if they want to do stuff, and it's in a way that doesn't exactly "end" the storyline for LFR players. The "Empowering" items could be entirely outside of the questline themselves, and just be like an item the legendary "consumes". Everybody wins.
    Is that like how the Breath of the Black Prince works, may I ask? I haven't bothered finishing the sigils yet.

    And it seems like a nice idea; better than mine at least.
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  8. #308
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    Is that like how the Breath of the Black Prince works, may I ask? I haven't bothered finishing the sigils yet.

    And it seems like a nice idea; better than mine at least.
    That just gives you a +500 stat gem for sha touched weapons

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigPapi View Post
    So you're saying LFR requires the same time and effort as Normal/HM? Clearly they're all on the same level since they all deserve the same loot(IE: legendaries)
    Same time (once on farm). Different effort. Your effort is already rewarded with mounts, thunderforged gear, and higher ilevels. What do you need, a sandwich and a pony, too?

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Same time (once on farm). Different effort. Your effort is already rewarded with mounts, thunderforged gear, and higher ilevels. What do you need, a sandwich and a pony, too?
    The pony will do. Maybe that will be the new reward for Flex and up.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by cmennare View Post
    Like it or not casuals make up a large percentage of the game right now and they pay the same subscription as hardcore raiders, Blizzard understands this and appreciates this which is why there is some gear available to casuals so that they may have a chance to play the game and not wipe over and over. This would discourage them and they would quit paying to play, and Blizzard understands that also. There is a bunch of gear that casuals will never get and is only available to hardcore raiders or PvPers. That is the reward system that Blizzard has set up, 1 little cloak is not going to upset the balance of Azeroth, so let them have it. Chances are the next patch after 5.4 will offer higher ilvl gear to HC players anyways.
    Blizzard understands that casuals make up their playbase but they don't appreciate it, they rue it. They are pumping out more content then ever as fast as they can, yet still are losing subs by the million. The accessibility, lack of depth, simplicity, repetitiveness that defines wow now was put into the game for the sake of casuals who couldn't be bothered to actually learn the complexities of the game. Millions have quit and will continue to do so.

    The game is a pale, shallow imitation of what it once was; and we can thank Blizzard's attempt to cater to mainstream casuals for that.

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  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Well to be fair that RNG was gated behind a level of raid progression and your place in the guild, and I see both factors as been more important than the RNG when it came to receiving those items.
    On the "your place in the guild" thing...this was a HORRIBLE aspect of previous legendaries. This was nothing more than a toxic drama-political nightmare for many many many guilds and it simply destroyed a lot of them.

    Progression has also typically been over and on farm by the time the majority of the legendaries were actually obtained, with the exceptions of the BT Glaives and Dragonwrath which were actually still useful in the next tier. Vanilla legendaries are a bit of a different case since there wasn't as much artificial week to week gating on them with collection aspects.

    This is really the first time Legendaries have been realistically obtainable and useful for progression. That alone outweighs everything from my perspective. I have never ever not cleared a raid tier in WoW before it was outdated and this is the 2nd time anyone in my guild has actually had legendary items during progression and not after it.

  13. #313
    What do you care? It's a game with a bunch of strangers. Doesn't matter at all in real life. Get your priorities straight.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by thedingleberry View Post
    What do you care? It's a game with a bunch of strangers. Doesn't matter at all in real life. Get your priorities straight.
    It's an mmo. So what other players do or have will always affect you or other people in some way. Get your genre right.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    It's an mmo. So what other players do or have will always affect you or other people in some way. Get your genre right.
    Which in this particular case the effect is absolutely nothing. If anything it's just beneficial when random strangers in a 5man or something have a legendary and do more DPS and speed things up.

    I don't see any negatives.

  16. #316
    Epic! Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    On the "your place in the guild" thing...this was a HORRIBLE aspect of previous legendaries. This was nothing more than a toxic drama-political nightmare for many many many guilds and it simply destroyed a lot of them.

    Progression has also typically been over and on farm by the time the majority of the legendaries were actually obtained, with the exceptions of the BT Glaives and Dragonwrath which were actually still useful in the next tier. Vanilla legendaries are a bit of a different case since there wasn't as much artificial week to week gating on them with collection aspects.

    This is really the first time Legendaries have been realistically obtainable and useful for progression. That alone outweighs everything from my perspective. I have never ever not cleared a raid tier in WoW before it was outdated and this is the 2nd time anyone in my guild has actually had legendary items during progression and not after it.
    Not saying that the previous legendary systems were great by any means, was just trying to explain why I didn't feel like Vanilla/BC legendaries were merely RNG fests (which is the argument the poster I quoted put forth).

    Every system of legendaries has had some form of weakness.

    All legendaries pre-Wotlk had the issue of "only one player can get them at once, and they take forever to get, and very few players will end up with them before they're irrelevant to progression".

    When Valanyr came about, blizzard tuned up the accessibility knob a tad and generally someone with 30 fragments was someone who could kill Yogg+1, but you could still only work on one healer at once and if they quit the game or left the guild you were in trouble.

    Shadowmourne was the next experiment, while still similar to Valanyr it segmented the collection process so that you could have multiple people working on different stages at once. It also varied up the RNG with a few static collection/boss challenge based requirements. Tarecgosa's staff and the Fangs of the Father both used similar systems. The problem was these legendaries stopped working so well in the age of LFR and accessibility, and there was still the issue of guild politics, classes/players feeling left out in general.

    So in MoP, they make legendary collection a massive expansion wide quest chain with mixes of RNG collection, static collection and solo challenges, and they made it accessible to anyone and everyone who was willing to put the time in.

    Pros of this system:
    - everyone can get a legendary if they want
    - no problem with guild politics and preference
    - mix of completion requirements
    - long-term player investment
    - lore tie ins
    - useful and relevant to progression guilds

    Cons of the system:
    - can create rifts in progression guilds with players who are behind
    - rewards such as the stats gem and prismatic socket lack a legendary feel, the meta gem is a lot better in this regard
    - some weird requirements such as the PVP quests to get the prismatic socket, feels very forced and for some players frustrating
    - over-use of RNG, needs more balance
    - solo scenario that doesn't make it completely and utterly clear that it may not be your gear that's failing you
    - can feel more like a chore than a legendary quest (once you're onto your third RNG collection quest...)
    - no tie-ins to raid difficulty, unlike non-legendary gear

    Some suggestions that I think would improve the legendary quest for everybody:
    - every reward has some kind of proc or visual benefit which goes beyond "500 agi"
    - let players nurture their legendary rewards for the entire expansion instead of having to drop them
    - make them independant to individual gear slots so that they aren't added to the gear acquiral/maintenance budget
    - let players improve the power of their rewards by completing certain raid difficulty milestones AND/OR make the acquisition of the legendary rewards noticeably faster based on difficulty
    - make rewards have some procs and/or benefits that are class specific and some that are role specific
    - if the quest is going to be RNG, give a guaranteed drop mechanism somewhere so that players know there's an ending, unlike pre-fix secrets, runestones and sigils
    - give some kind of a way for someone who's finished to help a guildie catch up faster (this will be harder though)

    I'm open for discussion.

  17. #317
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    The quest chain is so grindy that I wonder, maybe the sane people are the people who don't finish it.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    The quest chain is so grindy that I wonder, maybe the sane people are the people who don't finish it.
    AFKing in LFR takes a lot of effort.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    AFKing in LFR takes a lot of effort.
    You can kill 750 mobs on the Isle of Thunder while you're AFK?

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You can kill 750 mobs on the Isle of Thunder while you're AFK?
    Depends if you're willing to give someone 20-30k gold.

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