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  1. #1

    Haste or mastery

    Hello everyone, I have recently gotten my 4 set bonus and I am about to obtain the legendary meta and I am unsure what secondary stat I should be going for. I've seen many top shamans running haste and mastery builds, and some running a mix. Can anyone tell me what this is about and what I should reforge to? I am currently 5/13hm

  2. #2
    You didn't say what is your specialization, if you are Enhance it would be haste, but you would have to sim to be sure.
    Everything that is, is alive.

    Agaor - Enhancement Shaman

  3. #3
    Haha oh shoot, sorry about that. I am ele. Thanks for letting me know.

  4. #4
    Kinda wondering the same. I'm Elemental, 4 set bonus and getting the meta next reset. At the moment I'm gemming pure intellect for red sockets and reforging to haste. I see some Elementals gem full mastery, others full Haste, others pure intellect.

    See my legs for an example, 40 intellect gained over using gems to activate the socket bonus (80 int + 160 haste & 80 int + 160 hit). 40 int gained and hit at 15% blank.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Naelea/simple
    Last edited by Nico87; 2013-06-17 at 11:03 PM.

  5. #5
    The Patient
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    Binkenstein's recent answer on Totemspot (quoted here in part):

    Without legendary metagem:
    Haste > Mastery > Crit
    With legendary metagem:
    Haste until 4204 > Mastery = Haste above 4204 > Crit

    An easy way to work out how much Haste and Mastery you should have is to add them together, subtract 4204 for that initial target, then divide by two. This will be your Mastery target, while your Haste target is Mastery + 4204.

    Mastery Target = ( H + M - 4204) / 2
    Haste Target = Mastery Target + 4204

  6. #6
    Blademaster Kasatushi's Avatar
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    Basically with 4p/LMG u can gem/reforge/enchant 3 different ways: Haste which is a single tar inc, mastery which will b a AoE inc, or a balance build of haste and mastery. its rlly what ur the most comfortable playin with. The best way to found out if u are at the point to were u can start switchin out gems is to sim ur character after i switchd from int to haste it was about 2k inc but that was for me

    when u start to regem/forge(if u choose to do so) start off slow mabye change 2-3 pieces sim check if inc repeat there was a point when i was changing gear that i lost dps becuz i had to much haste vs other stats. You dont have to copy my gemming/forging the dmg btwn pure haste/mastery is small the only different comes on certain fights like H jin haste would b best but moments like H durumu ice walls or nest on ji-kun mastery would b best for those moments.
    Totemspot.com is great place if u have question they might alrdy b answered there, and i cant link my toon since i just made this account but my shaman is Kasatushi if u want to look at me

  7. #7
    The Patient
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    Also, the Ele shaman guide has gemming advice. Basically, it is valid to choose a balanced approach or to focus on haste or mastery.

  8. #8
    More Mastery = More haste power (best way Mastery 2:1 Haste (25 %haste/ 50% mastery)
    before 540ilvl ,4set, legendary pure int/int mastery/haste int/spirit
    *(after int haste/mastery pure haste/mastery spirit/haste/mastery)*

    if u reach above 56%mastery(u have 28%hast)
    mastery and haste has better than intelect
    and u regem like this ** u have more mast/haste and they are so much better than int then before (int 4.1++(mast/hast 3.2),but x2 and its 6.4>4.1((1024>656)DPsincrease)

    img197.imageshack.us/img197/5662/3aqpng do . before png <--(my dream build fe.)

  9. #9
    I think I deleted most of the simulation I did recently, but in my case (540ilevel, 4p, LMG, hydra/Cha Ye), simC basically told me "haste anywhere from 10k to 13k" > mastery, and that dps won't change (gemming either haste or mastery (not int)). Both graph I had for elemental blast and primal elemental were basically having haste and mastery equal up to 13k, and then statweight difference of haste-mastery suddenly drop (ie, there is no dps drop/grain by being just above or just below 13k haste, but haste suddenly lose value there). Also this was for single target. Aoe will benefit way more to mastery and crit than to haste, so if you plan to make significant amount of damage with cl on a fight, staking haste is probably a bad idea.

    I'm not sure how gear and trinket dependent this is, and how this "softcap" will evolve with gear, but I guess best is to run some extensive reforge plot (~5k range, with quite a lot of iteration. Make them run while you sleep/go to work...), ignore any "spike" that seem un-natural, and try to aim for the maximum value of the plot !

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Robula's Avatar
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    What I'm yet to find a definitive answer for yet is wether Haste or Mastery would be more beneficial for Echo/EB after recieving LMG and 4set. I'm thinking that because of LMB and Bloodlust; Mastery would be prefered to keep us away from the 50% Haste hardcap on Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst. I'm not sure if SimC or Binkenstein accounts for this in his blog post: http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=95

    Would the DPS loss of gemming/reforging Mastery > Haste be noticable? At least if we were to this we would be a lot stronger for cleave/aoe encounters. Question is, how much would our single target damage suffer?

  11. #11
    you could have just asked Foogy. im sitting in voice chat. go haste to 4204 then mastery at a 2:1 ratio. you can reforge for more mastery on AoE fights or cleave fights for a slight dps increase. the haste build is doing slightly better, and the mastery build is doing better on cleave/AoE. after the legendary meta its all preference.

  12. #12
    Kree u moved out of my channel I assumed u didn't want to talk

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Robula View Post
    What I'm yet to find a definitive answer for yet is wether Haste or Mastery would be more beneficial for Echo/EB after recieving LMG and 4set. I'm thinking that because of LMB and Bloodlust; Mastery would be prefered to keep us away from the 50% Haste hardcap on Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst. I'm not sure if SimC or Binkenstein accounts for this in his blog post: http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=95

    Would the DPS loss of gemming/reforging Mastery > Haste be noticable? At least if we were to this we would be a lot stronger for cleave/aoe encounters. Question is, how much would our single target damage suffer?
    What 50% hard cap? The hard cap for both of these spells is 100%, which means you need 53.84% haste (including aura) to hit that with one 30% haste buff, or 18.34% with two. In any case, yes, all of this is accounted for in that post, especially since you need to be able to hit over 19k haste rating to see mastery > haste (which is currently impossible)
    Quote Originally Posted by kreearra View Post
    you could have just asked Foogy. im sitting in voice chat. go haste to 4204 then mastery at a 2:1 ratio. you can reforge for more mastery on AoE fights or cleave fights for a slight dps increase. the haste build is doing slightly better, and the mastery build is doing better on cleave/AoE. after the legendary meta its all preference.
    Where do you get the 2:1 ratio from?

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Robula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    What 50% hard cap? The hard cap for both of these spells is 100%, which means you need 53.84% haste (including aura) to hit that with one 30% haste buff, or 18.34% with two. In any case, yes, all of this is accounted for in that post, especially since you need to be able to hit over 19k haste rating to see mastery > haste (which is currently impossible)
    Thanks for the reply Bink. I'm sorry, I was getting confused with the old hard cap of LvB before the cast time change. I only ask the question because for one; I really hate going under 1 second casts with BL + LMG and I see some other Shaman (Leeds from Method) going full out Mastery. I guess the best answer is to chardev my character with different stats and see what exactly the DPS loss would be from going Mastery heavy.

    Thanks.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robula View Post
    Thanks for the reply Bink. I'm sorry, I was getting confused with the old hard cap of LvB before the cast time change. I only ask the question because for one; I really hate going under 1 second casts with BL + LMG and I see some other Shaman (Leeds from Method) going full out Mastery. I guess the best answer is to chardev my character with different stats and see what exactly the DPS loss would be from going Mastery heavy.

    Thanks.
    Leeds has been the only Shaman I've seen going pure mastery gems and just all out dumping all he can into it. But I follow Leeds a lot and he changes things up so much in his gearing I can't help but believe he constantly experiments on his own just because he can in his position.

    The majority of Ele Shamans I've looked at are leaning more towards the pure haste gemming (myself included). I initially noticed it on Brightleaf of BL then started going through top parses on certain fights looking at each Shaman as I went down the list. The gem change was somewhat surprising to me as it honestly never set in my head that not gemming Int would be a better option. After Sim testing my character with gem swaps I gained roughly 5-7k DPS base from swapping my gems to raw haste, int/haste, and haste/spirit... to match socket bonuses that were worth it or just flowed properly.

    After talking to another fellow Ele a few days after my gem change he swapped over and noticed a DPS increase as well.
    Seems gemming haste is a direct benefit, I haven't really experimented with mastery gems as of yet... as the sims didn't leave a noticeable impression on me.

  16. #16
    It really depends on fights, mastery outperforms haste on AoE and haste outperforms mastery on single target, you should gem according to fight.

  17. #17
    Sorry, but this whole discussion is very confusing.

    Should I now aim for maximum amount of haste?
    Or should I try to have a certain ratio? If, then which stat is the one with the higher value?

    As far as my own simulations go, having a Echo+PE build, haste is superior to mastery and haste x 2 > int (25k Iterations, Low World lag, 350 sec fights, Average Player Skill, Heavy Movement Fight).

    This did not even change when gemming full haste, so I am currently sitting at ~10.500 haste and ~9500 mastery @529ilvl.

  18. #18
    High Overlord transorD's Avatar
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    Just to be sure I'm getting it right, we shouldn't be using pure Int gems as ele?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by transorD View Post
    Just to be sure I'm getting it right, we shouldn't be using pure Int gems as ele?
    This happens at higher gear levels, and there is an easy explantion for it. It is because INT provides diminishing returns, whereas your secondary stats do not. This is similar to how armor provides diminishing returns for tanks

    e.g. Lets say you sim at 100k DPS and each point of int bumped up your DPS by 1000 (a 1% gain). Well, after adding 100 Int, adding anymore will STILL raise your DPS by only 1000 per point (a .5% dps gain), whereas it takes 450 Haste to give you 1% more whether you are at 10% haste or 30% haste

    The reason you see INT's value go up as you gear more is because your raised secondary stats prop it up, but eventually if you collect enough INT (theoretically, Not possible with current gear) even 1 secondary stat point > 1 INT

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    This happens at higher gear levels, and there is an easy explantion for it. It is because INT provides diminishing returns, whereas your secondary stats do not. This is similar to how armor provides diminishing returns for tanks

    e.g. Lets say you sim at 100k DPS and each point of int bumped up your DPS by 1000 (a 1% gain). Well, after adding 100 Int, adding anymore will STILL raise your DPS by only 1000 per point (a .5% dps gain), whereas it takes 450 Haste to give you 1% more whether you are at 10% haste or 30% haste

    The reason you see INT's value go up as you gear more is because your raised secondary stats prop it up, but eventually if you collect enough INT (theoretically, Not possible with current gear) even 1 secondary stat point > 1 INT
    It's not quite diminishing returns in the traditional sense. Strictly speaking, diminishing returns is getting less output from more input (ie: a log curve). Int will still add the same amount of damage as you increase it in a linear fashion, but due to positive feedback adding more Int also increases the damage gained from all other stats (and vice versa). The reason that secondary stats are worth more now is that we essentially have "too much" Int so that the influence of Int on other stats is much greater than how Int is being affected in return.

    It's why Int is now worth more in T15 than it was in T14, but the gain is proportionally less than the gain for Haste & Mastery.

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