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  1. #1

    Jay Wilson and Warhammer 40k Dawn of War

    Alright this might not be strictly Diablo 3 based but since all the hate the man received after the release of Diablo 3, I thought I should put this here (Mods, if it needs to be moved, move it).

    So, I was just replaying Warhammer 40000: Dawn of War (found the CD buried somewhere and went haywire) and after finishing THE AWESOME CAMPAIGN I sat through the credits and noticed Jay Wilson as Lead Designer and Story writer. Now, don't get me wrong, he did some terrible things to Diablo as a franchise (or he might have been a scapegoat, who knows) but I really believe the guy did an AWESOME job with the Dawn of War series (yes, other people worked with him from Relic but he was a Leading man there so that puts him as responsible I guess).

    Where I am going with this? Remember at the peak of Diablo 3 backlash when the original creator criticized Wilson's team and there was strong support of him because he was the original creator of Diablo (despite not making ANYTHING of note since then). Yeah... so my point is, Wilson wasn't a bad designer and the REAL reason he was to blame for Diablo 3's many shortcomings. Maybe it was just a missed product, mismanagement, who knows. I just know that no one's perfect and while it hurts to have one beloved series spoiled, nothing is ever done for good.

    It's been a whole year since Diablo 3 has been released and Jay Wilson fired. Let's move on.

    PS: Dawn of War was / is underappreciated. Those series are awesome.
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  2. #2
    High Overlord Jaroko's Avatar
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    I think Jay Wilson did an amazing job with Diablo 3. No matter what he did, People was going to cry because i wasnt a D2 clone. Alot of people are saying stuff like " Look at all the pacths D3's gotten its so much better now " If the game ws totally broken like some haters claim.No amount of pacths would have fixed it.

    Jay Wilson was the base for this game and even know alot of people dont want to admit it. D3 wouldnt be the same without him and i HIGHLY DOUBTwith all my heart it would have been better if he wasnt the lead. He took the time and put in the effort to making it a game we all want to play and look at it now. Aton of people moaned about items being messed up but failed to see what he tryed to do. Funny because that idea is working in the game right now.

    I love the random stats on items. Nothing in BiS because there can allways be better. You can go from new to the game to billionair just by killing a zombie.
    the way i think is with each kill you make your getting a free try at the lottery. Only costs you time to play it. i think thats a great system. So yeah let the D2fanboys and PoE noobs cry. I waited 10 years for D3 and Jay Wilson made it worth the wait.
    Maturity has more to do with what types of experiences you've had, and what you've learned from them, and less to do with how many birthdays you've celebrated.

    In todays times, People are obsessed with the end of days, Claiming that these are the darkest of times. It's only when you open a History book do we realize we have no right to - Scott J Keill.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonshardz View Post
    Alright this might not be strictly Diablo 3 based but since all the hate the man received after the release of Diablo 3, I thought I should put this here (Mods, if it needs to be moved, move it).

    So, I was just replaying Warhammer 40000: Dawn of War (found the CD buried somewhere and went haywire) and after finishing THE AWESOME CAMPAIGN I sat through the credits and noticed Jay Wilson as Lead Designer and Story writer. Now, don't get me wrong, he did some terrible things to Diablo as a franchise (or he might have been a scapegoat, who knows) but I really believe the guy did an AWESOME job with the Dawn of War series (yes, other people worked with him from Relic but he was a Leading man there so that puts him as responsible I guess).

    Where I am going with this? Remember at the peak of Diablo 3 backlash when the original creator criticized Wilson's team and there was strong support of him because he was the original creator of Diablo (despite not making ANYTHING of note since then). Yeah... so my point is, Wilson wasn't a bad designer and the REAL reason he was to blame for Diablo 3's many shortcomings. Maybe it was just a missed product, mismanagement, who knows. I just know that no one's perfect and while it hurts to have one beloved series spoiled, nothing is ever done for good.

    It's been a whole year since Diablo 3 has been released and Jay Wilson fired. Let's move on.

    PS: Dawn of War was / is underappreciated. Those series are awesome.
    Surprise.

    Jay Wilson created WH40/ Dawn of War ... but he ALSO was Lead Designer of ... Company of Heroes, an even BIGGER blockbuster.

    COH is considered to be one of the best games launched in the first decade of this decade and it has Jay Wilson's name all over it.

    That was the reason why Rob Pardo hired him btw.


    TLDR: Don't believe kids on the internet: check sources first.

  4. #4
    Diablo 3 got hung by the internet lynch mob because a launch title was expected to be as polished as a game that had an expansion and a few years after of patching, balancing, and tweaks, all of which came from large-scale, player-based feedback and data. Diablo 2, pre-expansion, was plagued with balance, itemization, etc. issues. But the internet was different back then, and nobody harped on it cause it wasn't "as great as Diablo!". Technology also didn't jump as far between those two titles.

    Diablo 3 is a fantastic game for what it is. I do and don't agree with the Auction House. I do agree it's safer than 3rd Party sites. I don't like that it seems the only real way to see upgrades is there (mostly cause RNG is RNG, and swings badly more often than not). Itemization is their next hurdle they are tackling, which will likely help restore more faith in the game. I'm considering going back to play a "Self-Found Only" character in Hardcore with a friend or two, since I've done nothing in Hardcore, not much to impact me really from my main Normal account.
    Games are not necessarily "easier" today. You are just a better player.
    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
    Many players expect to be wow'd with every release of a beloved franchise.
    These are generally NOT the fault of the developers, but the fault of many players over-hyping and/or setting expectations too high.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    Diablo 3 got hung by the internet lynch mob because a launch title was expected to be as polished as a game that had an expansion and a few years after of patching, balancing, and tweaks, all of which came from large-scale, player-based feedback and data. Diablo 2, pre-expansion, was plagued with balance, itemization, etc. issues. But the internet was different back then, and nobody harped on it cause it wasn't "as great as Diablo!". Technology also didn't jump as far between those two titles.
    You know. The genius part of all this is, well, they didn't need to go through that process again. They have the notes. They have the research done. What happened in Diablo II vanilla, and how did the expansion make it so popular. Every little thing people complained about when it was released- it wasn't as though it came out of left field. It's like making another model upgrade of an existing car. "Hey, we had updated a different model truck this year, are there lessons we could apply that could help us with this new model for this car?" "Nah." It's asinine. I fully expect people to latch onto that analogy and go off on tangents.

    I'm tired of people pointing out one or two good things people done in their life as though it exonerates them, like how nobody dared point out Rare's garbage track record in the years after Goldeneye lest they were burned at the stake like a silly whore, or how upset people were when Lucasart's went under. Jay Wilson made Company of Heroes, which is largely overrated, and Warhammer. Whoopee. That sure didn't help him in D3 did it? Yes people were expecting a far better product on release than they got. They had good reason to.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    You know. The genius part of all this is, well, they didn't need to go through that process again. They have the notes. They have the research done. What happened in Diablo II vanilla, and how did the expansion make it so popular. Every little thing people complained about when it was released- it wasn't as though it came out of left field. It's like making another model upgrade of an existing car. "Hey, we had updated a different model truck this year, are there lessons we could apply that could help us with this new model for this car?" "Nah." It's asinine. I fully expect people to latch onto that analogy and go off on tangents.

    I'm tired of people pointing out one or two good things people done in their life as though it exonerates them, like how nobody dared point out Rare's garbage track record in the years after Goldeneye lest they were burned at the stake like a silly whore, or how upset people were when Lucasart's went under. Jay Wilson made Company of Heroes, which is largely overrated, and Warhammer. Whoopee. That sure didn't help him in D3 did it? Yes people were expecting a far better product on release than they got. They had good reason to.
    I can understand where you are coming from with this and I agree to a point, for you see, everyone can have a bad game in the industry - we don't really know what actually happened during the development of Diablo 3 so we can't just put the blame on one single person (you'd think that Rob Pardo would oversee the work of a man who's worked on some of the biggest RTS game out there for a genre he's never worked on). I think the fault lies in the company and their recent inability to not give a flying fuck about the state of their games (remember how they used to delay / cancel games because it didn't meet their quality standards... you know what happened to that particular notion - Activision.) So yeah, we are entitled to ask for a better product (especially after a decade of waiting) but it is a tad unreasonable to flame just one person for its failure.
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  7. #7
    Guy really should stick to making RTS games.

  8. #8
    And coincidentally, he has moved to Blizzard's unnamed project (one can hope for warcraft 4, I want epic rts campaign after 12 years).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonshardz View Post

    PS: Dawn of War was / is underappreciated. Those series are awesome.
    Yeah...and no. The game is fun for starters but gets boring really fast. Also, the campaign is NEVER like a Blizzard game with cutscenes between the missions and well written plots for each faction also with their cutscenes.

    At best you just get some light engine generated "cutscenes" just for one faction, while the other(s) is just there so the main faction has something to fight.

    If the DoW games had all that, it would be A LOT more interesting.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Beazy's Avatar
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    I have played and beat all the DoW games. I loved them. Played DoW2 co-op campaign with my brother and it was a freaking blast.

  11. #11
    As I pointed out when people first started trying to boo Jay Wilson off stage, it still feels and looks to me as though his hand was forced with Diablo 3. The original 2010 previews and such had no inkling of the Auction House being such a major part, he had a ridiculous amount of things planned for the game. Then in mid 2011, when you see him in interviews and such, he looks depressed and exhausted. He's drained and explaining constantly how the auction house will work and why it will be a good thing. In the 20 minute gameplay preview from 2010, they emphasise the focus on gearing via killing mobs and looting. That disappears the following year.

    And again, someone who can put together DoW and CoH is not the type of person who suddenly dumps an auction house in their game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    Yeah...and no. The game is fun for starters but gets boring really fast. Also, the campaign is NEVER like a Blizzard game with cutscenes between the missions and well written plots for each faction also with their cutscenes.

    At best you just get some light engine generated "cutscenes" just for one faction, while the other(s) is just there so the main faction has something to fight.

    If the DoW games had all that, it would be A LOT more interesting.
    Are you serious? You do realise that there's over an hour of storyline cutscenes and plotting in just Dawn of War 1, vanilla, right?



    Part 1. Of 5.

    2003 - Homeworld 2 - Additional Design Support
    2004 - Warhammer 40k Dawn of War - Design and Story
    2006 - Company of Heroes - Senior Designer

    Dawn of War 2 has nothing to do with him.

    And as a conclusion, I don't believe that Jay suddenly went nuts and decided to try and push something like the Auction House, especially since he was such a big fan of Diablo 2.

  12. #12
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudomix View Post
    And coincidentally, he has moved to Blizzard's unnamed project (one can hope for warcraft 4, I want epic rts campaign after 12 years).
    I'd say it's more likely to be Legacy of the Void.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaroko View Post
    I think Jay Wilson did an amazing job with Diablo 3. No matter what he did, People was going to cry because i wasnt a D2 clone. Alot of people are saying stuff like " Look at all the pacths D3's gotten its so much better now " If the game ws totally broken like some haters claim.No amount of pacths would have fixed it.

    Jay Wilson was the base for this game and even know alot of people dont want to admit it. D3 wouldnt be the same without him and i HIGHLY DOUBTwith all my heart it would have been better if he wasnt the lead. He took the time and put in the effort to making it a game we all want to play and look at it now. Aton of people moaned about items being messed up but failed to see what he tryed to do. Funny because that idea is working in the game right now.

    I love the random stats on items. Nothing in BiS because there can allways be better. You can go from new to the game to billionair just by killing a zombie.
    the way i think is with each kill you make your getting a free try at the lottery. Only costs you time to play it. i think thats a great system. So yeah let the D2fanboys and PoE noobs cry. I waited 10 years for D3 and Jay Wilson made it worth the wait.
    I wasn't a D2 clone either.

    Joke aside,

    If the game ws totally broken like some haters claim.No amount of pacths would have fixed it.
    It is, there are several things broken at the fundamental level and it will most likely stay that way until expansion. An example would be the itemization, mainly the stats system.
    Last edited by Elenion; 2013-06-18 at 06:40 PM.

  14. #14
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    And a fix to that is upcoming, but it won't happen until after BlizzCon. They want to do a sweeping overhaul all at the same time instead of a few tiny things here and there at a time. (see the DiabloFans front page for the latest news on that)

  15. #15
    Don't really give a rats ass about Jay Wilson. All I know is that he's a bitch that publicly wrote stupid stuff on twitter/facebook about David Brevik, and by that he can go fuck himself.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesta View Post
    Don't really give a rats ass about Jay Wilson. All I know is that he's a bitch that publicly wrote stupid stuff on twitter/facebook about David Brevik, and by that he can go fuck himself.
    I'm not sure why people seem to care so much about David Brevik in particular. Yes, he worked on Diablo and Diablo 2, but it appears to me that it was his team that made the game great in the end, not him specifically.

    Especially considering he gave himself the title of Hellgate: London's "Game Visionary" and also the following quote from Gazillion Entertainment:

    “We admire Blizzard and Blizzard games. David was asked about Diablo 3 and gave his honest opinion and we stand by him 100%. Marvel Heroes is David’s vision and is the spiritual successor to Diablo 2. We’ll be in closed beta soon, so visit MarvelHeroes.com if you want to check it out.” – Leo Olebe, VP Marketing Gazillion Entertainment.

    So yeah. Marvel Heroes is the Diablo 3 he would've made.

  17. #17
    People are expecting $60 for thousands of hours fun.
    Is that possible?

    Blizzard is expecting the AH to be a cash cow without new contents every a few months.

  18. #18
    Diablo 3 was good, but I love the Dawn of War series! Didn't know Jay Wilson made it though, have to say he should have stuck with RTS games. And to be honest, I can't be upset over his comment about David Brevik. That guy put together a long interview just to talk trash about how glad he was that nobody else was capable of making a great ARPG (no, really, he actually said that- never mind that everything he made outside of Diablo 2 is trash and there's amazing stuff like Path of Exile out), and Jay just made that comment to comfort his upset team members in what he thought was a private conversation.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldryth View Post
    (no, really, he actually said that- never mind that everything he made outside of Diablo 2 is trash and there's amazing stuff like Path of Exile out), and Jay just made that comment to comfort his upset team members in what he thought was a private conversation.
    No, he didn't. He was being as tactful as possible dealing with a reporter who tried to goad him into saying negative things about the current iteration of Diablo 3. One of Wilson's team posted it on his facebook whining about being 'thrown under the bus' and Wilson said 'fuck that loser' pertaining to Brevik.

    And Dawn of War, while an amusing single player, had balance problems out the ass.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    No, he didn't. He was being as tactful as possible dealing with a reporter who tried to goad him into saying negative things about the current iteration of Diablo 3. One of Wilson's team posted it on his facebook whining about being 'thrown under the bus' and Wilson said 'fuck that loser' pertaining to Brevik.

    And Dawn of War, while an amusing single player, had balance problems out the ass.
    "I am also a little happy, which I hate to say, it shows that the people that were involved in Diablo really did matter, and so I am happy that it has come to light that how talented that group was and how unique and special that group was. I am hoping that, as this happens very often in the industry, you see it with Call of Duty and things like that , when the people leave the game changes and it shows how critical people are in this industry." - David Brevik.

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