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  1. #1
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    [shadow PvP] "From Darkness, Comes Light" + crit stacking in PvP (5.3)

    Next week I'll hit 25.000 conquest points and the first thing I will do is exchanging all the haste gear I have with crit gear. I'll drop the 8085 haste cap and stack crit and int. Up until now I wasted some sockets by geming haste instead of intellect to get the haste cap. Now I'll gem only intellect to reach 17904 => mind Spike crits for over 75k in arenas on 65% resi players. To get as many mind spike crits as possible, I'll reforge into crit, crit only.

    "From Darkness, Comes Light" makes 75k crits possible because of the 150% increased damage (which scales with intellect very well).

    As opposed to "Solace and Insanity", you can do insane damage while moving with 2 instant mind spikes and 1 instant mind blast.
    Since 5.3 hit, there are tons of physical-damage combs (namely hunter, feral, warrior, ret, rogue, monk, dk, enhancer). They will nearly always train you as a shadow priest. And when they do, it takes forever to build up 3 orbs and then when you start your insanity-mind flay you will get kicked or stunned (at least in 2000+ arenas). This is where your crit gear and "From Darkness, Comes Light" comes in handy. You just keep dotting everything on the field, while running away from the meeles chasing you. As a result you will get TONS of procs, especially in 3s. If VT is up on 3 targets, you can be sure to get 2-3 instant mind spike procs every 5 seconds critting for 75k each (if you are lucky). This causes extrem pressure, even though you are always on the run.

    DP + 2x MS (instant) + 1x MB (instant) with VT+SW:P on the target, damages the opponent for around 250.000 damage in 3-4 seconds. Sounds op? It is.

    I hope this helps some of you to get up some pressure in arenas, even if you get trained all the time.

    Cheers

    edit: why I gave up the 8085 haste? I prefer 17904 int, 21% crit and 75k crits over the one additional tick.
    Last edited by Rinnegan; 2013-06-18 at 01:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Proc mind spikes do not give stacks of glyph of mind spike since 5.1 so you're relying on getting 3 VT casts off without anyone stopping you or making you fuck around juking so the first one you got off falls before you get a third up you're still relying on DI for the instant mind blast which you cant afford to not use immediately leaving it sitting off cd is bad enough but it can be dispelled. Even if you get lucky with mind spikes you might as well have gotten peels when you went to go for a kill or a hard swap using SW:I because it will always do more damage than 2 mind spikes in 2-3 channels, WAY more, and you're going to need to be able to free cast at some point or another no matter how you play. No point doing sub optimal damage because it can be countered, everything can be countered.
    Last edited by Vicarious; 2013-06-18 at 04:54 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicarious View Post
    Proc mind spikes do not give stacks of glyph of mind spike since 5.1 so you're relying on getting 3 VT casts off without anyone stopping you or making you fuck around juking so the first one you got off falls before you get a third up you're still relying on DI for the instant mind blast which you cant afford to not use immediately leaving it sitting off cd is bad enough but it can be dispelled. Even if you get lucky with mind spikes you might as well have gotten peels when you went to go for a kill or a hard swap using SW:I because it will always do more damage than 2 mind spikes in 2-3 channels, WAY more, and you're going to need to be able to free cast at some point or another no matter how you play. No point doing sub optimal damage because it can be countered, everything can be countered.
    not really sure what you are trying to say here.

    I know about the glyph. You can get 2 mind spike procs from 1 VT if you are lucky. So there is no need to keep up 3 VTs at the same time.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    not really sure what you are trying to say here.

    I know about the glyph. You can get 2 mind spike procs from 1 VT if you are lucky. So there is no need to keep up 3 VTs at the same time.
    he's saying that you're assuming a type of match which doesn't exist in-game (one where the spriest isn't trained and interrupted to hell), and at that you're only getting RNG 'pressure' assuming you can sneak out the hardcasts for VT.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    he's saying that you're assuming a type of match which doesn't exist in-game (one where the spriest isn't trained and interrupted to hell), and at that you're only getting RNG 'pressure' assuming you can sneak out the hardcasts for VT.
    I'm assuming a type of match where the priest is trained all the time, nonstop, fulltime, until the end. That is why I came up with the "From Darkness, Comes Light" + crit gear idea.

    You can easily fake and then cast VT at all 3 targets. Mind blast is the problem because you have to "aim" which is pretty hard to do against, for example, a 2.2 feral.

    And as I said, as soon as you have 3 VTs up and running, you get 2-3 mind spikes every 5 seconds (I did some testing) ... hardly "RNG pressure" but rather insane constant pressure and when you combine it with DP your target is doomed.

    Playing this spec at 2150 rating even against caster combs, because they can't avoid mind spikes as opposed to insanity. Every second game we win is because I'm able to run after the healer at 50% increased movement speed (feathers) while hitting him with 75k crits constantly. He can't hide behind any pillar.

    "From Darkness, Comes Light" is just awesome.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    I'm assuming a type of match where the priest is trained all the time, nonstop, fulltime, until the end. That is why I came up with the "From Darkness, Comes Light" + crit gear idea.

    You can easily fake and then cast VT at all 3 targets. Mind blast is the problem because you have to "aim" which is pretty hard to do against, for example, a 2.2 feral.

    And as I said, as soon as you have 3 VTs up and running, you get 2-3 mind spikes every 5 seconds (I did some testing) ... hardly "RNG pressure" but rather insane constant pressure and when you combine it with DP your target is doomed.

    Playing this spec at 2150 rating even against caster combs, because they can't avoid mind spikes as opposed to insanity. Every second game we win is because I'm able to run after the healer at 50% increased movement speed (feathers) while hitting him with 75k crits constantly. He can't hide behind any pillar.

    "From Darkness, Comes Light" is just awesome.
    Faking 3 people 3 times to get 3 VT on them all will not work, and if by some miracle you do get all three up, by the time the third one is up the first one will likely be dropping soon.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    Faking 3 people 3 times to get 3 VT on them all will not work, and if by some miracle you do get all three up, by the time the third one is up the first one will likely be dropping soon.
    yes that is the playstyle that comes with "From Darkness, Comes Light": dot everything all time time and cast all your proccs inbetween (you are also allowed to clip your dots even when there are 4-5 seconds left because you won't get that additional tick from 8085 anyways, because you don't have 8085 haste.

    You hardly ever have to fake 3 times, maybe 2 times against 2 meeles but that is pretty rare.

  8. #8
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    75k crit at 150% means 50k crit without FDCL, against 65% resilience means 150k crit before resilience, 110k crit before power, means 55k non-crit before power, resilience and FDCL buff. Mind Spike scales 1300 + 130% of spellpower, so a 65k non-crit before all those other factors means you have 49k spellpower, in your full pvp gear (because I'm assuming a high amount of power). Granted I haven't used FDCL in some time, but is your mind spike really hitting for 75k in arena? That seems about 2.5 times stronger than I'd expect.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    75k crit at 150% means 50k crit without FDCL, against 65% resilience means 150k crit before resilience, 110k crit before power, means 55k non-crit before power, resilience and FDCL buff. Mind Spike scales 1300 + 130% of spellpower, so a 65k non-crit before all those other factors means you have 49k spellpower, in your full pvp gear (because I'm assuming a high amount of power). Granted I haven't used FDCL in some time, but is your mind spike really hitting for 75k in arena? That seems about 2.5 times stronger than I'd expect.
    75k after all those factors, not before

  10. #10
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    75k after all those factors, not before
    That's my point, in full PvP gear he'll have around 22k spellpower, not anywhere near the 49k spellpower (unattainable) needed to have 75k Mind Spike crits in arenas.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    That's my point, in full PvP gear he'll have around 22k spellpower, not anywhere near the 49k spellpower (unattainable) needed to have 75k Mind Spike crits in arenas.
    i have 27k selfbuffed and around 30k in arena (playing with mage)

    I have two int + haste proc trinkets (496)

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 09:55 PM ----------

    tomorrow I'll do arenas and try to get a screenshot

  12. #12
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    i have 27k selfbuffed and around 30k in arena (playing with mage)

    I have two int + haste proc trinkets (496)

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 09:55 PM ----------

    tomorrow I'll do arenas and try to get a screenshot
    Ok, so the double int trinkets explains the 27k spellpower, but it also means your pvp power is lower than I expected. The haste procs are good for DPS obviously but probably aren't doing anything for your proc-based build - even with close to 30k spellpower (and lower pvp power as a result) I'm skeptical of 75k mind spike crits, since it's still about half of what would be needed - at least by formula.

    Picture would be great, thanks If it's true though, that almost sounds like your FDCL procs are possibly ignoring resilience? Seems strange.
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  13. #13
    "you get 2-3 mind spikes every 5 seconds "

    You should have about a 22% chance to get at least two procs and about a 5% chance to get at least 3 procs in a given 5 second window with three VTs rolling (I'm assuming you get two ticks of each VT so 6 ticks total in the 5 seconds). Feel free to check my maths.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by IloveGerardWay View Post
    "you get 2-3 mind spikes every 5 seconds "

    You should have about a 22% chance to get at least two procs and about a 5% chance to get at least 3 procs in a given 5 second window with three VTs rolling (I'm assuming you get two ticks of each VT so 6 ticks total in the 5 seconds). Feel free to check my maths.
    if I have 3 VTs up, instant mind spikes keep rolling in, just try it yourself on 3 training dummys.

  15. #15
    lol as if proc RNG wasn't enough, he's going to hold them for trinket procs. is this real life?

  16. #16
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    You can easily fake and then cast VT at all 3 targets.
    in what game?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    he's going to hold them for trinket procs. is this real life?
    what are you saying? The good thing about "From Darkness, Comes Light" is that you don't have to rely on trinket procs.
    With insanity you want to have as many trinkets up as possible. But not with "From Darkness, Comes Light".

    edit: ofc a trinket proc always helps



    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 01:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    in what game?
    e.g. feral hunter disc

    you fake the feral, the hunter won't silence a VT and the disc can't counter you...BOOM! You faked one and you can now cast VT on all three targets.
    All this is happening in WoW all the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 01:28 AM ----------

    I want to quote Khryl, rank 1 shadow priest, at this point:

    "All 3 talents on that tier are good, even Mindbender. It really just comes down to personal preference. I just don't like all of my damage being tied up to Devouring Plague, I like having some burst outside of it. Also the better you are keeping alot of VT's out, the better FDCL is, as you get alot more procs than someone who doesnt keep VT's rolling." (source:http://www.twitch.tv/khryl)
    Last edited by Rinnegan; 2013-06-18 at 11:17 PM.

  18. #18
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan View Post
    e.g. feral hunter disc

    you fake the feral, the hunter won't silence a VT and the disc can't counter you...BOOM! You faked one and you can now cast VT on all three targets.
    All this is happening in WoW all the time.
    Because actual interrupts are the only thing in this game that can stop you from casting and feral totally won't bash/maim/typhoon you on your next cast after you fake, and discipline priests tend to stand in the middle of arena at 2.4k+ MMR, 'cause LoS-ing is too mainstream...

    Therefore this doesn't really count as a valid answer to my question.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2013-06-19 at 12:02 AM.
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  19. #19
    Dunno, 75k crits looks huge, considering u can pool both the stacks and a DP.

    Maybe with LoC eroic 2/2 upgrade + DMC (its a bit more then 6k intellect from both procs, no RPPM) + Tailoring and weapon enchant.
    With a warlock , u'd get the same 10% spell power buff plus the CoE.

    But i can't test it, i'm horde and i seriously need the standard anti cc trinket; as ppl said its not like a 15sec CD juked interrupt is going to let you free cast a ton of VTs accounting the laughable dispel protection we still have.

    p.s.: Isn't nerfing human racial a good step into balancing pvp burst at least a bit?

  20. #20
    "I don't want to put all my power into my best ability that also heals me and is most important no matter what set of talents I choose when it can be dispelled and I can be interrupted. Instead I'd like to have to get many more hard-casts off let mind blast sit off CD half the time and use what little peels my team has for me to keep VTs up so that both the VTs and the procs they create can be dispelled before they can be any use. I also want to lower my single target burst and never use my only snare so that I can run at 50% bonus speed spamming my mind spikes for nonsensical numbers against a healer at 50% who will proceed to not defend himself neglect all forms of snare/knockback/CC and speed boosts he himself has and fall on his sword. Because I can't read tooltips that say +60% speed nor would I want to use things that do the same boost of speed and shield you in the same global because that would be stupid why would I want to not spend a global just to run fast and nothing else as well as need to target the ground to do it only to have a snare cancel the effect most of the time, I mean clearly its good to constantly waste this talent by having the charges sit off cd because they aren't needed or alternatively waste GCDs putting them down when I could be doing anything useful. ESPECIALLY when I need to use PW:S anyways..."

    This is laughable, the OP cant seriously be what he says I refuse to believe anyone "2150" rating would sound this foolish unless the mage is doing some serious carrying, the talents you're talking about aren't bad its just the way you claim to use them that is just unrealistic nevermind the fact that you simply cannot hit someone for 75k with a mind spike even with the best two int proc/use trinkets possible jade spirit and lightweave up in pvp gear you would still need another 8k or so int and you say you have static int trinkets so no you are very mistaken. Also you would have to gem full int in every socket nearly to get 27k sp in instanced pvp without the 10% sp buff and if that is with the buff all of this is even less believable.

    also
    the hunter won't silence a VT
    we must be playing a different game

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