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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    The word "Heroic" hasn't really applied since TBC. These days heroic dungeons are just for getting valor capped or to gear up in the first week of having a character. There's zero challenge, and practically zero meaningful rewards to be found in them.

    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement to get a pretty nice reward in the form of the best loot you could get outside of raiding as well as cost-effective badges of justice (justice points, which in the current game are utterly worthless, so why even have them?)

    If you don't want to commit the time and energy needed to do HEROIC dungeons, which should actually be somewhat heroic in my opinion, you can stick to normal mode dungeons (which should be as hard as current heroics) and scenarios and LFR.

    this is a significant problem with the currrent game in my opinion.


    tl;dr : make HEROIC dungeons difficult, requiring thought and time, AND (this is also important) provide adequate reward for taking the time and energy to do these dungeons.
    They tried making heroics harder at the beginning of Cataclysm, it didn't go very well. As much as people may want to claim, most of the playerbase doesn't want harder content. You have to take into account the different kind of players there are nowadays. Back in Burning Crusade and Vanilla the only kind of content people knew was hardcore content, so they did it and didn't complain. Nowadays if Blizzard tries to make difficult content, the average player can't handle it. They want to log on, raid, get some gear and then log off until the next raid night. Not many people can be bothered to farm for endless hours just to get a piece of gear or do something like an attunement or some other time consuming thing, that's why people are so upset with all of the dailies. Although I don't think dailies were as forced back in the day as they are now. They've given players too many conveniences to take them away now.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    There weren't any new HC's with 4.2, oh and people in general disliked how easy the HoT hc's were compared to the initial Cata hc's.
    ZA/ZG were supposed to be released with Firelands, but FL got delayed and Blizzard felt they had to put something out.
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  3. #43
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    Blizzard needs to be brave and do some things that might not be popular, but will benefit the game in the long run. Things like toning down the hand holding and realizing that healthy challenge to get meaningful rewards is what drives us to play and want to succeed in the game.

    I got my desire to be the best from looking at other players that were better than me and how good their gear was and their rare mounts and titles and things like that.

    If everyone has access to the best and coolest rewards, they become worse and less cool.

    Maybe the answer to making dungeons harder and more satisfying isn't necessarily in coming up with new boss mechanics. Things like Black Morass didn't have particularly hard mechanics, they just forced you to think quickly in between pulls and prepare yourself even if you didn't have enough time to be fully prepared, same with shattered halls. Imagine a shattered halls with today's class variety and viability of multiple classes in the same role. You'd need to make the trash and bosses hit really hard, but you wouldn't necessarily need to add a ton of mechanics in order to make it difficult.

    Trash pulls that could link to other trash pulls by patrols (which would certainly wipe you if you pulled more than one), bosses with watch-out-or-die mechanics, Grand Warlock Nethekurse, first boss shattered halls, comes to mind. There weren't enrage timers but healer mana was a concern and keeping up with all the damage that was going out was.


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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Felfury View Post
    Thing is, Cata had the lowest 5 man participation of all the expansions. I remember Ghostcrawler saying that at some point with regards to the difficulty change between expansions.
    But somehow the game was at the peak of the sub levels? hmmmm

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    Its one thing to stay in a dungeon for three hours before the introduction of LFD and another when you can just leave group and requeue with LFD. The choice is yours. If you did not want to deal with the randomness of LFD groups then form your own groups as Blizzard recommended when LFD first launch, no one is forcing you to solo queue. I solo queued the vast majority of my heroics as both a healer and a DPS and never hit the multi-hour mark in Cata. The only times I left was when I was in a group of stubborn players that would rather repeatedly leeroy fights instead of trying to listen to another player explain a fight. The majority of players I ran across was capable of doing Cata launch heroics. It was only a minority of players that had issues and sadly it is this minority that Blizzard is designing the game around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ifeanychukwu View Post
    They tried making heroics harder at the beginning of Cataclysm, it didn't go very well.
    Blizzard also removed max level normal modes and LFD was released when most of the five mans was already heavily out geared. Blizzard also vastly increased the amounts of points rewarded from heroics which drew in a far larger crowd than before. There was lots of QQ about the ICC heroics being to hard and there was still groups failing in the older heroics. Obviously the players who had issues with ICC heroics are going to have problems with Cata heroics and not have a normal mode to step down into.

    Blizzard made a lot of other changes than just making heroics "heroic" again. If Cata had the alternative grinds for players not suited for heroics like we have in MoP then Cata launch would of been a whole lot different while still allowing players to queue up for engaging five man content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Hard is relative. Cata's heroics are the hardest since I started in Wrath. They were capable of wiping you, and a few of them were able to consistently kill groups for a while. I don't think I ever wiped in a MoP heroic. They are silly easy, very much like Wrath's were.
    So was WotLK heroics, a number of them had one shot mechanics. Some groups would still wipe on the trash in Azjol-Nerub when ICC was out. At ilvl requirements the MoP heroics are more like WotLK normals.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-19 at 08:48 AM.

  6. #46
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    But somehow the game was at the peak of the sub levels? hmmmm
    Sub numbers went up pre-cataclysm... 6 Months into Cata subs had dropped to below wotlk levels, I fail to see your point?

    OT - Personally I liked TBC heroics. They offered a decent "pre-raid" gear path with the chance at some good "epic" items from the final bosses and whatnot. Challenge modes don't really compare simply because they're not part of the gearing/learning process - having "hard" heroics does weed out the people who simply can't be arsed to put effort in IMO.
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  7. #47
    Having heroic 5 mans as alternative progression paths for smaller groups would be awesome.

    I remember that Blizzard admitted before MoP release that current heroics should not be called heroic instances at all, but they stuck to that name for convenience.

    They should just add heroic 5 man dungeons, which take a well coordinated group (which does not necessarily translate to hard, but usually should), and provide gear equivalent to LFR (in ilvl, so you would not get tier gear etc.). Additionally keep the current style of level 90 dungeons which award you with pre-raid gear, and you're set.

    For what i care, even make heroic 5 man require premade groups as do the heroic scenarios.

    That at least would save from running stupid lfrs for most effective gearing of alts -_-

    edit: and no, heroic dungeon gear does not have to be epic. As long as i get the same amount of stats, heroic dungeon gear might as well be uncommon or whatever...
    Last edited by runey; 2013-06-19 at 09:51 AM.

  8. #48
    :P Ok so you say i want Chelenge and i dont care for gear .. We see answer Cherenge mode .. And another answer thats not the same they dont give gear .. so whot in hell you ppl want??? first you say you dont need gear then that you need lol .Todays chalange modes ar on pare with TBC Heroics or even harder (yes they ar I did both ) and i dont wana know in whot horible grups you was in if you think Cata Heroics was harder then todays Chalange mode

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrage View Post
    2 words:

    Challenge modes
    Two words: wrong concept, or, another two words: no alternative.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    The word "Heroic" hasn't really applied since TBC. These days heroic dungeons are just for getting valor capped or to gear up in the first week of having a character. There's zero challenge, and practically zero meaningful rewards to be found in them.

    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement to get a pretty nice reward in the form of the best loot you could get outside of raiding as well as cost-effective badges of justice (justice points, which in the current game are utterly worthless, so why even have them?)

    If you don't want to commit the time and energy needed to do HEROIC dungeons, which should actually be somewhat heroic in my opinion, you can stick to normal mode dungeons (which should be as hard as current heroics) and scenarios and LFR.

    this is a significant problem with the currrent game in my opinion.


    tl;dr : make HEROIC dungeons difficult, requiring thought and time, AND (this is also important) provide adequate reward for taking the time and energy to do these dungeons.
    you are living in a dream world man, they want people to consume their content. challenge modes are what you want and even then they became cake

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Sodia View Post
    :P Ok so you say i want Chelenge and i dont care for gear .. We see answer Cherenge mode .. And another answer thats not the same they dont give gear .. so whot in hell you ppl want??? first you say you dont need gear then that you need lol .Todays chalange modes ar on pare with TBC Heroics or even harder (yes they ar I did both ) and i dont wana know in whot horible grups you was in if you think Cata Heroics was harder then todays Chalange mode
    At least myself, i _do_ want gear. I want heroic dungeons to be a challenging alternative to gearing up other than through LFR...

  12. #52
    At the end of the day i think we will be seeing less and less 5 mans. Just look how they have declined since TBC we had 15 i think, now we have 8.
    TBC was a nightmare at the start.
    Finding players also knowing what to do in the 5 mans were important. I mean Mech was everyone go to place, nice amount of Badges and short. But still stunning those Curator guys where important or your tank would get low or killed. Your lock (if you had one to banish and control those demons with the bombs where just as important. Small shit that mattered. Also why people did it was loot. The fact that if you need an epic item which didn't drop for you this week from Kara you could get it from there 5 mans (some where shit for you but some where not)

    They should at least make it like Cata if they can't make it like TBC.

  13. #53
    cata difficulty was ok at start. the nerfs wasnt called for thou.. its called heroic for a reason..
    the remade trollinstances was ok aswell, but teh 5.3instances were a joke..

  14. #54
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodia View Post
    :P Ok so you say i want Chelenge and i dont care for gear .. We see answer Cherenge mode .. And another answer thats not the same they dont give gear .. so whot in hell you ppl want??? first you say you dont need gear then that you need lol .Todays chalange modes ar on pare with TBC Heroics or even harder (yes they ar I did both ) and i dont wana know in whot horible grups you was in if you think Cata Heroics was harder then todays Chalange mode
    I see your point. My opinion is that challenge modes are a completely optional experience (I personally haven't even bothered trying them) without a gear progression path. Heroic dungeons were the "pre-raid" experience (before the introduction of LFR) which provided a challenge as well as things like tokens/points towards LFR-style gear and some decent "epic" drops from the final bosses. The old heroics were a stepping stone that could be done daily for another chance at that elusive epic drop from a final boss. Cata heroics may have been a bit hard but that did mean people needed to L2P.

    LFR has taken that spot now... It's a necessary evil if you're Blizzard and you want as many people as possible to appreciate the raids that you've put so much effort into but if you're still running LFR then you're more than likely not raiding normal modes. The LFR experience is a simple one devoid of any real responsibility. Perhaps you're gearing through LFR for normal modes, perhaps it's all you have the time/inclination to do but the previous "difficult" heroic dungeons were an unskippable stepping stone towards a final goal of being geared, even if you were never going to bother with raiding.

    Hell, I can partially remember hardly ever raiding in WoTLK but I still had a full set of thassarian tank gear, Quel Serrar etc that I'd picked up through acquiring whatever the currency was at the time. It was a gear progression path that didn't require you to raid. You could do your 5 man dungeons with friends.

    Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK heroics all had satisfying dungeons which would allow you to build relatively decent gear sets (RIP tier 0) and nowadays you don't really need to participate in heroic dungeons at all - cheap crafted PvP gear from the AH, sha of anger's boots, a drop or two from a scenario or even some PvP honor gear (that's a higher level than heroic dungeon gear for obvious reasons) allows you to skip the dungeon process all together and jump straight into LFR.

    I levelled a shaman as enhancement... When I hit 90 I respecced to Resto having never played a healer before... Bought some of the "Dreadful Gladiator's" PvE gear and borrowed a couple of "LFR Boost BOE" items from a friend to shove in my bag. 2 raids later I had 4 new epic items and I still have no idea how to heal (Intentionally). Surely that's not a good progression path?
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-06-19 at 11:24 AM.
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  15. #55
    Challenge Mode reminds me of "Shattered Halls" in TBC when you had to get the attunement for SSC/TK. Or the Bear runs in ZA (10 man). Just pulling Mass AOE, burn your kool downs. Small cc

  16. #56
    I really like Cata's Hs but people complained about it too much so Blizz had to cater them. I have been saying this for so long that 5 mans need to be reasonably hard AND reward meaningful gears.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-06-19 at 11:44 AM.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord Icaras's Avatar
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    The main mistake blizzard made in cata was having the extra heroics essentially be their own mini queue tier. for the troll heroics, we basically had no choice but to endlessly run them, as they had the best gear AND the only chance to VP cap outside of raiding.

    With the hour of twilights, we had the option of either overall random or random HoT. This was fine if you only wanted the gear from HoT and just wanted to do them as they were the quickest heroics available.

    Problem was if you got sick of them and wanted to see the other heroics pop up and so you chose the overall random option, I found that 7/10 you'd end up in a HoT heroics anyway, because so many people were queued for the hot queue that the majority of groups being formed were HoT ones.
    For me, I was completely fed up with those damn things are farming the hell out of them for gear on various alts. I think towards the end of cata I barely ever set foot in the starter cata heroics (as a random dungeon).

    I think wrath handled the multiple tiers of dungeon well, as they just had all of the heroics lumped in together from the start, so you could choose to queue for a set dungeon and if you chose random, you had everything in the mix.

    This is what MoP is doing as well, tho of course we not seeing any new dungeons (That said, monastery seems to pop up more often as my random than I would like...)
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  18. #58
    Some people exaggerate the difficulty of the early cata heroic dungeons. I didn't have any problems with the heroics apart from Blackrock Caverns.
    They were definently lots of fun. It was actually possible to wipe to mechanics, and some of the trash was even more intimidating than the bosses. I started playing at the launch of WoTLK, so my experience is fairly limited, but I loved the cata heroics at the start. I can't do MoP heroics without falling asleep inbetween.

    Also Challenge mode was insanely fun, but once you've done them, thats about it. They don't give any real rewards of value.

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danshot View Post
    you are living in a dream world man, they want people to consume their content. challenge modes are what you want and even then they became cake
    No. I don't want dungeons in which I can clear until I get golds, for cosmetic rewards, and then never ever ever come back.

    I want heroics with satisfying difficulty, satsifying UNIQUE RARE LOOT, that serves as the primary (or alternative) method of gearing up new characters to get them ready for real (not lfr) raiding.

    I want timed runs or something (strat, shattered halls) that separate myself from the rest of the pack and make me feel like i've accomplished something by rewarding me with extra loot, tradeskill mats, mounts, pets, things of that nature.

    Challenge modes could probably be expanded to fill this role, but they don't do it currently.

    Just bring back the exact model from the burning crusade and i personally will be 99% satisfied.


    I'm glad to see a lot of constructive thought going on in this thread.


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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    Just because you don't, doesn't mean people like myself don't.
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