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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They're not supposed to be hard. They're really just normal mode dungeons for lvl 90s.
    Which does not change the fact that dungeons in general in WoW are jokes compared to a lot of other games. I usually try a lot of new MMOs, try them out. Tried out Aion, rift, dragon nest, global agenda, neverwinter, raiderz etc, and I cant think of any of them that had such easy dungeons as WoW have. While leveling you can solo level appropriate 5 man instances easier than the special "solo instances" in Global Agenda.

    Dungeons are supposed to be a stepping stone, a training grounds, basic gearing up and basic challenges, challenging enough to help you teach the basics of your class and the game. Something that I do not really think WoW had since the ZA/ZG instances.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oncereborn View Post
    IMO with the introduction of challenge mode that pretty much is what it was like in TBC so if you enjoyed that (I did) you can do those. BUT I think the sweet spot for 5 mans from a gearing up for raids point of view would definetly of been WRATH. In Wrath you could go from being a fresh dinged max level character, to somewhat raid ready through JP/VP type gear in just 1 or 2 days worth of farming.
    This was true in Cata much more than in wrath. Entry level cata heroics offered a much faster gearing up process than entry level WotLK heroics. The difference though was that naxxramas was not really a raid as much as it was a 10/25 player dungeon.
    If you go further into the expansion, you did not get any new dungeons when ulduar released, so dungeons did not get you raid ready at all here, you had to go through old raids.
    When ToC released you got one 5 player dungeon, before FL you had ZA/ZG in cata. The difference here is that you could do ToC5HC one time a day and ZA/ZG you could spam with random queue, so you could gear up a lot faste rin ZA/ZG than in ToC5HC, same story in ICC with the ICC dungeons vs Cata End Time dungeons, you could only do the WotLK ones once, you could spam the Cata ones, making you gear up faster. In WotLK you also only got emblems once a day, in Cata you could spam justice points for easy gear up, there was no "soft cap" with justice as there was on emblems.

    So really, Cata dungeons offered much better gearing up than WotLK dungeons

    Now in MoP, it is exactly the same thing. I dinged a new tank alt in 5.2. After 2 days it was 485 ilvl, did entire ToT LFR, Nalak, Oondasta, Galleon and Sha of Fear and got 0 items, so was with very bad luck. With some luck it could easily have been 495-500 ilvl after 2 days. Easily raid ready for ToT after just a day or two.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-24 at 08:39 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #102
    You're going to mislead a lot of people with your title, they will think you are talking about the original 5 mans in Cata, which imo were the correct difficulty, but the majority complained.

    The 5 mans you mention were too easy for me, especially the twilight ones and I thought they were also designed terrible.

    ZA/ZG were fun at first, but having only 2 dungeons available in your LFG runs, was a bad idea. They were also pretty easy, I do recall being in some terrible pugs though, but that's because you get terrible players in LFG.

    I would rather have heroic dungeons be heroic. In cata, the first 5 mans were indeed heroic level and good fun. The later dungeons in cata patches, were not heroic for me, but just a basic farm fest with no challenge.

    It would be cool to bring back hard heroic dungeons again, and for all the whiners who are just simply not very good at this game, can have scenarios which drop similar gear.

    Blizz have basically destroyed 5 mans in this game, by just making them too easy at every level, and the fact that they are meant to be done in 10 mins with no effort for loot or badges or exp.

  3. #103
    The Patient elmachino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    It would be cool to bring back hard heroic dungeons again, and for all the whiners who are just simply not very good at this game, can have scenarios which drop similar gear.

    Blizz have basically destroyed 5 mans in this game, by just making them too easy at every level, and the fact that they are meant to be done in 10 mins with no effort for loot or badges or exp.
    This is kinda what i was thinking of, bring back the pre nerf Cata dungeon difficulty and maybe add an epic that drop from the end boss to give those players something extra. And the people who cant handle it have their Scenarios, could maybe increase droprate from the bags and/or the end boss in the scenario drop some blue.

  4. #104
    Having easy dungeons allows you to create your own challenges though. Me and a tank friend had a competetion who could tank all heroics in random groups (no friends allowed) with res sickness and your real gear / only using your weapon, shield, rings, neck, back and trinkets, rest slots empty (no armor pieces).

    IIRC I think we both completed both tasks in all heroics.

    Think it got to that point we even started removing gear with res sickness on. Getting those competetive faces on!

    Was actually very funny. Heroics was almost hard when you had res sickness, or well, keeping aggro was hard.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    I do. I don't want to spend 6 hours there with lazy idiots, but 3 hours with fine players is bliss

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    CM are nothing like TBC heroics. TBC heroics you had to watch pats, CC, be careful of the mobs' CC (fear, etc), and mobs running away/pulling other mobs. CM you just zerg through and AoE everything.
    In BC once your had gear your could do the same thing, or did you not actually ever play in TBC?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 07:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Which does not change the fact that dungeons in general in WoW are jokes compared to a lot of other games. I usually try a lot of new MMOs, try them out. Tried out Aion, rift, dragon nest, global agenda, neverwinter, raiderz etc, and I cant think of any of them that had such easy dungeons as WoW have. While leveling you can solo level appropriate 5 man instances easier than the special "solo instances" in Global Agenda.

    Dungeons are supposed to be a stepping stone, a training grounds, basic gearing up and basic challenges, challenging enough to help you teach the basics of your class and the game. Something that I do not really think WoW had since the ZA/ZG instances.




    This was true in Cata much more than in wrath. Entry level cata heroics offered a much faster gearing up process than entry level WotLK heroics. The difference though was that naxxramas was not really a raid as much as it was a 10/25 player dungeon.
    If you go further into the expansion, you did not get any new dungeons when ulduar released, so dungeons did not get you raid ready at all here, you had to go through old raids.
    When ToC released you got one 5 player dungeon, before FL you had ZA/ZG in cata. The difference here is that you could do ToC5HC one time a day and ZA/ZG you could spam with random queue, so you could gear up a lot faste rin ZA/ZG than in ToC5HC, same story in ICC with the ICC dungeons vs Cata End Time dungeons, you could only do the WotLK ones once, you could spam the Cata ones, making you gear up faster. In WotLK you also only got emblems once a day, in Cata you could spam justice points for easy gear up, there was no "soft cap" with justice as there was on emblems.

    So really, Cata dungeons offered much better gearing up than WotLK dungeons

    Now in MoP, it is exactly the same thing. I dinged a new tank alt in 5.2. After 2 days it was 485 ilvl, did entire ToT LFR, Nalak, Oondasta, Galleon and Sha of Fear and got 0 items, so was with very bad luck. With some luck it could easily have been 495-500 ilvl after 2 days. Easily raid ready for ToT after just a day or two.
    Actually it was far faster to gear up in wrath than in cata or mop. In cata it would take ages to get raid ready on an alt compaired to in wrath. In wrath you could literally run heroics over an over for a couple of days and buy all the justice and valor gear and you would be easily geared enough for heroics, and you would nolonger need to run 5 mans as you would have already had all the gear.

    In cata and again in mop all the gear is gated, you have a cap on how much points you can earn so you cant just get instantly geared straight away, which IMO is a very boring model as it forced players to take weeks or even months to get decked out in gear from justice/valor points.

    This is all from personal experience BTW not from just reading some forums. Had a max level of each class in both wrath and in cata, all raid level geared and most of which also had equally geared offspecs. Also the process im referring to worked up until cata release (so when ICC was still current), because with each new tier in wrath, the justice/valor gear was upgraded.
    Last edited by Oncereborn; 2013-06-24 at 09:54 AM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement to get a pretty nice reward in the form of the best loot you could get outside of raiding as well as cost-effective badges of justice (justice points, which in the current game are utterly worthless, so why even have them?)
    tbc dungeons weren´t hard, people just sucked. sure for those people who were stuck the entire expansion in karazhan it seemed hard i guess but don´t tell me a full t5-t6grp needed 2-3hours of hard work for a lousy heroic dungeon.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Oncereborn View Post
    In BC once your had gear your could do the same thing, or did you not actually ever play in TBC?
    CM is equivalent to outgearing TBC heroics... except CM is normalized so you can't outgear it and it's always that easy, or did you not actually ever play CM?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Oncereborn View Post
    Actually it was far faster to gear up in wrath than in cata or mop. In cata it would take ages to get raid ready on an alt compaired to in wrath. In wrath you could literally run heroics over an over for a couple of days and buy all the justice and valor gear and you would be easily geared enough for heroics, and you would nolonger need to run 5 mans as you would have already had all the gear.

    In cata and again in mop all the gear is gated, you have a cap on how much points you can earn so you cant just get instantly geared straight away, which IMO is a very boring model as it forced players to take weeks or even months to get decked out in gear from justice/valor points.

    This is all from personal experience BTW not from just reading some forums. Had a max level of each class in both wrath and in cata, all raid level geared and most of which also had equally geared offspecs. Also the process im referring to worked up until cata release (so when ICC was still current), because with each new tier in wrath, the justice/valor gear was upgraded.
    I did not say that gearing up in wrath was slower. Gearing up through dungeons was though. The difference was that in WotLK there was pugs going on for T7, T8, T9, T10 constantly, even in T10, so you could always gear up through the older tiers. Gearing up through dungeons was however faster in Cata, that is quite undeniable.

    That said, gearing up in Cata was not slow. All my alts was usually raid ready 1-2 days after dinging 85 in cata. Not like it took months to become raid ready in Cata.


    Edit: Also, you do realise there was no justice/valor gear in WotLK? There was emblems, and emblems had a maximum cap per week. That is the difference, Justice point had no cap, so you could grind full justice gear in 1 day if you wanted in Cata, you did not have that option in WotLK.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-24 at 10:01 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #110
    I personal liked it more this way without any new dungeons i think on a new expansion there should be new
    dungeons but after that i cant see the point in why blizz should use time on making them.
    Last edited by baline; 2013-06-24 at 10:03 AM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement
    I wouldn't really call it hard work and they didn't take 2-3 hours either. Sure they would take 3 hours with bad players, but in TBC I just did them with friends.

    Actually I take that back, first time doing them it would take about 2 hours for some of them, as you had to work out patrols, boss mechanics and stuff. After the first time though, they were pretty quick. Again this is with friends, not idiots who are clueless you would find in trade/lfg channel.

    You can't queue for heroic scenarios (even though they are easy), so why don't they introduce heroic elite mode 5 mans, where you can't queue for them, but have to make your group instead.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mofi View Post
    tbc dungeons weren´t hard, people just sucked. sure for those people who were stuck the entire expansion in karazhan it seemed hard i guess but don´t tell me a full t5-t6grp needed 2-3hours of hard work for a lousy heroic dungeon.
    I don't know why you're referring the TBC heroics to groups in t5-t6 gear.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2013-06-24 at 10:09 AM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I did not say that gearing up in wrath was slower. Gearing up through dungeons was though. The difference was that in WotLK there was pugs going on for T7, T8, T9, T10 constantly, even in T10, so you could always gear up through the older tiers. Gearing up through dungeons was however faster in Cata, that is quite undeniable.

    That said, gearing up in Cata was not slow. All my alts was usually raid ready 1-2 days after dinging 85 in cata. Not like it took months to become raid ready in Cata.


    Edit: Also, you do realise there was no justice/valor gear in WotLK? There was emblems, and emblems had a maximum cap per week. That is the difference, Justice point had no cap, so you could grind full justice gear in 1 day if you wanted in Cata, you did not have that option in WotLK.
    You say gearing up wasn't slower, then in the next sentence you say it was????? And of course I know there wasn't JP/VP in wrath, but emblems were the EXACT same thing man, don't try and get technical on me that's petty.

    I don't think you even remember early cata heroics, each one would take atleast 30 minutes and were actually quite difficult most of the time resulting in constant wipes unless you had a full premade. BTW yes I do remember how long it would take to gear up and how long it would take to do the runs, go armory me (same name as my forum name - server is Jubei'Thos), I had all the heroic achievements in the first week of cata.
    Last edited by Oncereborn; 2013-06-24 at 10:11 AM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Oncereborn View Post
    You say gearing up wasn't slower, then in the next sentence you say it was????? And of course I know there wasn't JP/VP in wrath, but emblems were the EXACT same thing man, don't try and get technical on me that's petty.

    I don't think you even remember early cata heroics, each one would take atleast 30 minutes and were actually quite difficult most of the time resulting in constant wipes unless you had a full premade. BTW yes I do remember how long it would take to gear up and how long it would take to do the runs, go armory me (same name at my forum name - server is Jubei'Thos), I had all the heroic achievements in the first week of cata.
    He's saying that gearing up from only dungeons was slower in WotLK, but overall it was faster because of all the pugs running old tiers.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-06-24 at 10:14 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  14. #114
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    Well imo. 5 mans at the lunch of cata was cool, but they were not desgined for bunch of casuals from lfd I mean 4.03/4.06 patch, as well as 4.1 when they add zul'aman zul'gurub.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    The word "Heroic" hasn't really applied since TBC. These days heroic dungeons are just for getting valor capped or to gear up in the first week of having a character. There's zero challenge, and practically zero meaningful rewards to be found in them.

    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement to get a pretty nice reward in the form of the best loot you could get outside of raiding as well as cost-effective badges of justice (justice points, which in the current game are utterly worthless, so why even have them?)

    If you don't want to commit the time and energy needed to do HEROIC dungeons, which should actually be somewhat heroic in my opinion, you can stick to normal mode dungeons (which should be as hard as current heroics) and scenarios and LFR.

    this is a significant problem with the currrent game in my opinion.


    tl;dr : make HEROIC dungeons difficult, requiring thought and time, AND (this is also important) provide adequate reward for taking the time and energy to do these dungeons.
    Absolutely this. I much prefer smaller group dynamics and dungeon content, and I really miss the epic dungeon crawls of TBC, tanking Shattered Halls Heroic as a Warrior was a true test of skill.

    And before anyone says it... Challenge Modes are NOT the solution. A) they are too easy, and b) the whole time trial concept totally invalidates the concept. Heroic dungeons should take an hour+ easily, and they should feel worthwhile. Imo they are the perfect solution to the LFR issue. LFR has become a pretty important step in the gearing process for many people, but a lot of those people also really dislike LFR. So put in new 5 man heroics, that are actually heroic, and reward LFR ilvl gear as drops from the bosses.

    I also think that dailies should not award valor. Dailies should award rep that unlocks decent items you can buy with gold. Valor should be like a "raid salary" that you get for doing current tier end game content, and you should be able to buy any item from the tier with it, imo. Terrible RNG (made worse by the LFR loot system of "failbags") is one of my biggest gripes with this game.

  16. #116
    These "spot" on dungeons were nothing but a PitA for the healer. All the WotLK players had long forgotten how to avoid any damage.
    ZA/ZG for those who no longer needed gear from 4.0, so much variance
    HoTs dungeons with so much RP that players fell asleep.

    I'm so glad they aren't adding new dungeons mid-expansion anymore. So ******* boring to be reduced to 2-3 dungeons for months.

    The thing here is that Burning Crusade had heroics that were hard for people in blues and at the same time for people in t6
    lolno
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-06-24 at 10:40 AM.
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  17. #117
    I'm playing on an all scripted TBC server and I've had more fun working my way up slowly then being raid raidy within 2 days.

    And yes, I like doing a 1 hour Shadow Labs run...

  18. #118
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    I'm playing on an all scripted TBC server and I've had more fun working my way up slowly then being raid raidy within 2 days.

    And yes, I like doing a 1 hour Shadow Labs run...
    Congratulations, you're the minority. The game has evolved since then, and I'm sure the majority of players have more fun being raid ready within 2 days than "working [their] way up slowly" and having it take weeks/months before they can enjoy themselves.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Well, Mists 5 mans were the avenue of choice for getting raid ready for MSV :> At least, to everyone that did MSV normals at launch.



    At lot of the bosses were tough too though. Stuff like Mechanar? Sure you needed a Warlock for most trash, but even the bosses had a lot going on.
    I don't remember needing a Warlock for Mechanar, and I ran that place every day for the damn Sun Eater sword. Mechanar was one of the easiest ones imo. Hardest was definitely Shattered Halls or Shadow Labyrinth. Arcatraz was pretty brutal.

    I think one of the "issues" that people had with the TBC heroics was that a normal solution to the difficult was just to throw more mages at it, so you could CC more mobs, and that led to a lot of classes/specs having issues finding groups. However, I did not encounter much/any of this as a Tank/DPS Warrior. I often played with a Paladin and Balance Druid, neither of which had anything like a mage's CC.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodyne View Post
    I don't remember needing a Warlock for Mechanar, and I ran that place every day for the damn Sun Eater sword. Mechanar was one of the easiest ones imo. Hardest was definitely Shattered Halls or Shadow Labyrinth. Arcatraz was pretty brutal.

    I think one of the "issues" that people had with the TBC heroics was that a normal solution to the difficult was just to throw more mages at it, so you could CC more mobs, and that led to a lot of classes/specs having issues finding groups. However, I did not encounter much/any of this as a Tank/DPS Warrior. I often played with a Paladin and Balance Druid, neither of which had anything like a mage's CC.
    Back when off-tanking/kiting was a normal alternative to CC.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

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