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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Felfury View Post
    Thing is, Cata had the lowest 5 man participation of all the expansions. I remember Ghostcrawler saying that at some point with regards to the difficulty change between expansions.
    But somehow the game was at the peak of the sub levels? hmmmm

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    Its one thing to stay in a dungeon for three hours before the introduction of LFD and another when you can just leave group and requeue with LFD. The choice is yours. If you did not want to deal with the randomness of LFD groups then form your own groups as Blizzard recommended when LFD first launch, no one is forcing you to solo queue. I solo queued the vast majority of my heroics as both a healer and a DPS and never hit the multi-hour mark in Cata. The only times I left was when I was in a group of stubborn players that would rather repeatedly leeroy fights instead of trying to listen to another player explain a fight. The majority of players I ran across was capable of doing Cata launch heroics. It was only a minority of players that had issues and sadly it is this minority that Blizzard is designing the game around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ifeanychukwu View Post
    They tried making heroics harder at the beginning of Cataclysm, it didn't go very well.
    Blizzard also removed max level normal modes and LFD was released when most of the five mans was already heavily out geared. Blizzard also vastly increased the amounts of points rewarded from heroics which drew in a far larger crowd than before. There was lots of QQ about the ICC heroics being to hard and there was still groups failing in the older heroics. Obviously the players who had issues with ICC heroics are going to have problems with Cata heroics and not have a normal mode to step down into.

    Blizzard made a lot of other changes than just making heroics "heroic" again. If Cata had the alternative grinds for players not suited for heroics like we have in MoP then Cata launch would of been a whole lot different while still allowing players to queue up for engaging five man content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Hard is relative. Cata's heroics are the hardest since I started in Wrath. They were capable of wiping you, and a few of them were able to consistently kill groups for a while. I don't think I ever wiped in a MoP heroic. They are silly easy, very much like Wrath's were.
    So was WotLK heroics, a number of them had one shot mechanics. Some groups would still wipe on the trash in Azjol-Nerub when ICC was out. At ilvl requirements the MoP heroics are more like WotLK normals.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-19 at 08:48 AM.

  3. #43
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    But somehow the game was at the peak of the sub levels? hmmmm
    Sub numbers went up pre-cataclysm... 6 Months into Cata subs had dropped to below wotlk levels, I fail to see your point?

    OT - Personally I liked TBC heroics. They offered a decent "pre-raid" gear path with the chance at some good "epic" items from the final bosses and whatnot. Challenge modes don't really compare simply because they're not part of the gearing/learning process - having "hard" heroics does weed out the people who simply can't be arsed to put effort in IMO.

  4. #44
    Deleted
    Having heroic 5 mans as alternative progression paths for smaller groups would be awesome.

    I remember that Blizzard admitted before MoP release that current heroics should not be called heroic instances at all, but they stuck to that name for convenience.

    They should just add heroic 5 man dungeons, which take a well coordinated group (which does not necessarily translate to hard, but usually should), and provide gear equivalent to LFR (in ilvl, so you would not get tier gear etc.). Additionally keep the current style of level 90 dungeons which award you with pre-raid gear, and you're set.

    For what i care, even make heroic 5 man require premade groups as do the heroic scenarios.

    That at least would save from running stupid lfrs for most effective gearing of alts -_-

    edit: and no, heroic dungeon gear does not have to be epic. As long as i get the same amount of stats, heroic dungeon gear might as well be uncommon or whatever...
    Last edited by mmoc4b8d679785; 2013-06-19 at 09:51 AM.

  5. #45
    :P Ok so you say i want Chelenge and i dont care for gear .. We see answer Cherenge mode .. And another answer thats not the same they dont give gear .. so whot in hell you ppl want??? first you say you dont need gear then that you need lol .Todays chalange modes ar on pare with TBC Heroics or even harder (yes they ar I did both ) and i dont wana know in whot horible grups you was in if you think Cata Heroics was harder then todays Chalange mode

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrage View Post
    2 words:

    Challenge modes
    Two words: wrong concept, or, another two words: no alternative.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    The word "Heroic" hasn't really applied since TBC. These days heroic dungeons are just for getting valor capped or to gear up in the first week of having a character. There's zero challenge, and practically zero meaningful rewards to be found in them.

    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement to get a pretty nice reward in the form of the best loot you could get outside of raiding as well as cost-effective badges of justice (justice points, which in the current game are utterly worthless, so why even have them?)

    If you don't want to commit the time and energy needed to do HEROIC dungeons, which should actually be somewhat heroic in my opinion, you can stick to normal mode dungeons (which should be as hard as current heroics) and scenarios and LFR.

    this is a significant problem with the currrent game in my opinion.


    tl;dr : make HEROIC dungeons difficult, requiring thought and time, AND (this is also important) provide adequate reward for taking the time and energy to do these dungeons.
    you are living in a dream world man, they want people to consume their content. challenge modes are what you want and even then they became cake

  8. #48
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sodia View Post
    :P Ok so you say i want Chelenge and i dont care for gear .. We see answer Cherenge mode .. And another answer thats not the same they dont give gear .. so whot in hell you ppl want??? first you say you dont need gear then that you need lol .Todays chalange modes ar on pare with TBC Heroics or even harder (yes they ar I did both ) and i dont wana know in whot horible grups you was in if you think Cata Heroics was harder then todays Chalange mode
    At least myself, i _do_ want gear. I want heroic dungeons to be a challenging alternative to gearing up other than through LFR...

  9. #49
    At the end of the day i think we will be seeing less and less 5 mans. Just look how they have declined since TBC we had 15 i think, now we have 8.
    TBC was a nightmare at the start.
    Finding players also knowing what to do in the 5 mans were important. I mean Mech was everyone go to place, nice amount of Badges and short. But still stunning those Curator guys where important or your tank would get low or killed. Your lock (if you had one to banish and control those demons with the bombs where just as important. Small shit that mattered. Also why people did it was loot. The fact that if you need an epic item which didn't drop for you this week from Kara you could get it from there 5 mans (some where shit for you but some where not)

    They should at least make it like Cata if they can't make it like TBC.

  10. #50
    cata difficulty was ok at start. the nerfs wasnt called for thou.. its called heroic for a reason..
    the remade trollinstances was ok aswell, but teh 5.3instances were a joke..

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sodia View Post
    :P Ok so you say i want Chelenge and i dont care for gear .. We see answer Cherenge mode .. And another answer thats not the same they dont give gear .. so whot in hell you ppl want??? first you say you dont need gear then that you need lol .Todays chalange modes ar on pare with TBC Heroics or even harder (yes they ar I did both ) and i dont wana know in whot horible grups you was in if you think Cata Heroics was harder then todays Chalange mode
    I see your point. My opinion is that challenge modes are a completely optional experience (I personally haven't even bothered trying them) without a gear progression path. Heroic dungeons were the "pre-raid" experience (before the introduction of LFR) which provided a challenge as well as things like tokens/points towards LFR-style gear and some decent "epic" drops from the final bosses. The old heroics were a stepping stone that could be done daily for another chance at that elusive epic drop from a final boss. Cata heroics may have been a bit hard but that did mean people needed to L2P.

    LFR has taken that spot now... It's a necessary evil if you're Blizzard and you want as many people as possible to appreciate the raids that you've put so much effort into but if you're still running LFR then you're more than likely not raiding normal modes. The LFR experience is a simple one devoid of any real responsibility. Perhaps you're gearing through LFR for normal modes, perhaps it's all you have the time/inclination to do but the previous "difficult" heroic dungeons were an unskippable stepping stone towards a final goal of being geared, even if you were never going to bother with raiding.

    Hell, I can partially remember hardly ever raiding in WoTLK but I still had a full set of thassarian tank gear, Quel Serrar etc that I'd picked up through acquiring whatever the currency was at the time. It was a gear progression path that didn't require you to raid. You could do your 5 man dungeons with friends.

    Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK heroics all had satisfying dungeons which would allow you to build relatively decent gear sets (RIP tier 0) and nowadays you don't really need to participate in heroic dungeons at all - cheap crafted PvP gear from the AH, sha of anger's boots, a drop or two from a scenario or even some PvP honor gear (that's a higher level than heroic dungeon gear for obvious reasons) allows you to skip the dungeon process all together and jump straight into LFR.

    I levelled a shaman as enhancement... When I hit 90 I respecced to Resto having never played a healer before... Bought some of the "Dreadful Gladiator's" PvE gear and borrowed a couple of "LFR Boost BOE" items from a friend to shove in my bag. 2 raids later I had 4 new epic items and I still have no idea how to heal (Intentionally). Surely that's not a good progression path?
    Last edited by mmoc0cdb03e806; 2013-06-19 at 11:24 AM.

  12. #52
    Challenge Mode reminds me of "Shattered Halls" in TBC when you had to get the attunement for SSC/TK. Or the Bear runs in ZA (10 man). Just pulling Mass AOE, burn your kool downs. Small cc

  13. #53
    I really like Cata's Hs but people complained about it too much so Blizz had to cater them. I have been saying this for so long that 5 mans need to be reasonably hard AND reward meaningful gears.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-06-19 at 11:44 AM.

  14. #54
    The main mistake blizzard made in cata was having the extra heroics essentially be their own mini queue tier. for the troll heroics, we basically had no choice but to endlessly run them, as they had the best gear AND the only chance to VP cap outside of raiding.

    With the hour of twilights, we had the option of either overall random or random HoT. This was fine if you only wanted the gear from HoT and just wanted to do them as they were the quickest heroics available.

    Problem was if you got sick of them and wanted to see the other heroics pop up and so you chose the overall random option, I found that 7/10 you'd end up in a HoT heroics anyway, because so many people were queued for the hot queue that the majority of groups being formed were HoT ones.
    For me, I was completely fed up with those damn things are farming the hell out of them for gear on various alts. I think towards the end of cata I barely ever set foot in the starter cata heroics (as a random dungeon).

    I think wrath handled the multiple tiers of dungeon well, as they just had all of the heroics lumped in together from the start, so you could choose to queue for a set dungeon and if you chose random, you had everything in the mix.

    This is what MoP is doing as well, tho of course we not seeing any new dungeons (That said, monastery seems to pop up more often as my random than I would like...)
    You must show no mercy, Nor have any belief whatsoever in how others judge you: For your greatness will silence them all!
    -Warrior Wisdom

  15. #55
    Deleted
    Some people exaggerate the difficulty of the early cata heroic dungeons. I didn't have any problems with the heroics apart from Blackrock Caverns.
    They were definently lots of fun. It was actually possible to wipe to mechanics, and some of the trash was even more intimidating than the bosses. I started playing at the launch of WoTLK, so my experience is fairly limited, but I loved the cata heroics at the start. I can't do MoP heroics without falling asleep inbetween.

    Also Challenge mode was insanely fun, but once you've done them, thats about it. They don't give any real rewards of value.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Danshot View Post
    you are living in a dream world man, they want people to consume their content. challenge modes are what you want and even then they became cake
    No. I don't want dungeons in which I can clear until I get golds, for cosmetic rewards, and then never ever ever come back.

    I want heroics with satisfying difficulty, satsifying UNIQUE RARE LOOT, that serves as the primary (or alternative) method of gearing up new characters to get them ready for real (not lfr) raiding.

    I want timed runs or something (strat, shattered halls) that separate myself from the rest of the pack and make me feel like i've accomplished something by rewarding me with extra loot, tradeskill mats, mounts, pets, things of that nature.

    Challenge modes could probably be expanded to fill this role, but they don't do it currently.

    Just bring back the exact model from the burning crusade and i personally will be 99% satisfied.


    I'm glad to see a lot of constructive thought going on in this thread.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    Just because you don't, doesn't mean people like myself don't.
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  18. #58
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    No. Not going through a dungeon for 4 hours again. If you say scenarios and LFR, that's just silly. LFR would then have to be tuned to be harder too and I'm pretty sure many would /quitthegameforever then.

    That's one reason why Cata lost some of the subs it had.
    I cried alone every single night. It felt like every day that passed here stole another piece of my real life away. After i cried, I’d go and fight as hard as I could. My only thought was winning, moving forward, and getting stronger. — Asuna Yuuki

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Asuna-San View Post
    That's one reason why Cata lost some of the subs it had.
    Maybe. I'm sure everyone that left the game left for their own reasons, most of them are likely "I wanted to try the new expansion, and then realized I don't like this game still".

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Asuna-San View Post
    No. Not going through a dungeon for 4 hours again. If you say scenarios and LFR, that's just silly. LFR would then have to be tuned to be harder too and I'm pretty sure many would /quitthegameforever then.

    That's one reason why Cata lost some of the subs it had.

    The only 4 hour dungeon ever was probably BRD and that was if you had a bad group. And if you didn't want to do BRD you didn't have to. But if you wanted the loot out of there you needed to do it, and that's how the game should be.

    Time + Effort = Reward (normal mode dungeons, scenarios, lfr, bgs)
    More Time + Effort = More Reward (heroic dungeons, normal mode raiding)
    Time + More Effort = More Reward (low to mid rated arena, challenge modes)
    More Time + More Effort = Lots of Reward (heroic raiding, high rated arena)

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