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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    A lot of people disagree with that statement. Let's rephrase it.

    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon with a bunch of strangers that can't play for shit.

    When I first hit level 70 back in TBC, I spend something like 5 hours in Shadow Labyrinths. 5 hours. With a bunch of guildmates. We were on TeamSpeak, we were having a laugh. We were failing miserably, but each pull we got a little more down. We never did get to kill Murmur that night, but it was fun.

    My patience with random people who all want to blame everyone other than themselves for wipes, is rather less. I think I once spent all of 10 minutes trying to convince people to move away from the charge on that first boss in Grim Batol (without yelling at the healer for not stopping you getting one-shot). If all you get for trying to explain tactics is "FFS HEALS", then you're going to get out of there.

    There are varying levels of skill and varying content to match. I lament the loss of hard heroics as much as anyone, but they just don't work in a post-LFD world. This is why you can't group for Challenge Modes. I'm not convinced that blasting through as fast as you can in enormous terrifying pulls was a step in the right direction, but it was at least a step. An admission that people's ideas of what heroics are, differs from player to player. One size does not fit all.

    It would be nice to have a heroic be hard, and not randomly grouped for. Something that it's expected that raiders will do, but not be the base step before going to LFR. Where the queue just puts you in a level 90 version of a dungeon, while having a full group of 5 opens up the real heroic mode.

  2. #122
    Brewmaster Daedelus's Avatar
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    I see your 5 hour Shadow Labs and raise you a 6 hour BRD!

    This is what they have tried to do with heroic scenarios, except even they are too easy with 3 friends and half-decent gear. Maybe newly dinged 90s (at whom they are aimed) makes them harder but the point is that as soon as Blizzard attempt to put some 'hard' content in that requires some communication that you can't use the group finder tool for, everyone cries about it and asks for a group finder to be added. They can't win.

    Challenge modes are at the extreme end of the spectrum, not dissimilar to heroic raiding. Not everyone wants to do them but they fill an essential niche, without which a small but significant player base would quit and the game would become Hello Kitty Online which you can argue 95% of it is already. It's that 5% that makes it worth playing still.
    Last edited by Daedelus; 2013-06-24 at 10:59 AM.

  3. #123
    I'd vote for super hard dungeons dropping LFR. And I mean super hard, like Rift Tier 1/2 dungeons. BC difficulty.

  4. #124
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Maybe Blizzard will put in a knucklehard and endless 5 man heroic, not dissimilar to the BRM dungeons.

    Then we can watch threads where the people who do them coomplain about those 5 mans giving lesser gear than LFR while being harder or we can watch Blizzard telling us how despite contrary claims, nobody actually wants to do them.

    And in the end it boils down to:

    9 million players have hundreds of different preferences. Some want easy 5 mans, some want a real challenge. Some even want that challenge for the pure challenge's sake. Others want to be rewarded in awesome loot.

    Everybody however will generalize that only what they want is what "everybody" want. Just read the responses in this thread 125 replies of people having played through the same x-pacs and everyone with a different experience and recollection of the times.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  5. #125
    Brewmaster Daedelus's Avatar
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    I'm going to quote Tony Soprano* here - "You can't put shit back in the donkey"

    Going back to TBC-style heroic dungeons is never going to happen, and frankly I hope they don't. I am a raider, that's all I really want to do. 5 mans is OK at the start of an expansion, and maybe doing one or two a week is OK, but that's it. I'm bored of them, they are a means to an end. That is just my opinion.

    *RIP James Gandolfini. Best TV drama ever made.
    Last edited by Daedelus; 2013-06-24 at 11:06 AM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedelus View Post
    I see your 5 hour Shadow Labs and raise you a 6 hour BRD!

    This is what they have tried to do with heroic scenarios, except even they are too easy with 3 friends and half-decent gear. Maybe newly dinged 90s (at whom they are aimed) makes them harder but the point is that as soon as Blizzard attempt to put some 'hard' content in that requires some communication that you can't use the group finder tool for, everyone cries about it and asks for a group finder to be added. They can't win.

    Challenge modes are at the extreme end of the spectrum, not dissimilar to heroic raiding. Not everyone wants to do them but they fill an essential niche, without which a small but significant player base would quit and the game would become Hello Kitty Online which you can argue 95% of it is already. It's that 5% that makes it worth playing still.
    Those BRD runs were really something even if specially if you didn't do MC lavarun style but full clear

  7. #127
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vholu View Post
    I'd vote for super hard dungeons dropping LFR. And I mean super hard, like Rift Tier 1/2 dungeons. BC difficulty.
    Then the people running them will
    -either claim they need a better reward, because doing LFR requires less effort
    -or run LFR instead because it is an easier way to aquire gear

    But definitely, people will make QQ threads here.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  8. #128
    Bloodsail Admiral Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrage View Post
    2 words:

    Challenge modes
    Those are more like speedruns and less like hard modes.
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  9. #129
    Bloodsail Admiral Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    The word "Heroic" hasn't really applied since TBC. These days heroic dungeons are just for getting valor capped or to gear up in the first week of having a character. There's zero challenge, and practically zero meaningful rewards to be found in them.

    I'd prefer the TBC model of 2-3 hours of hard work and ACTUAL thought requirement to get a pretty nice reward in the form of the best loot you could get outside of raiding as well as cost-effective badges of justice (justice points, which in the current game are utterly worthless, so why even have them?)

    If you don't want to commit the time and energy needed to do HEROIC dungeons, which should actually be somewhat heroic in my opinion, you can stick to normal mode dungeons (which should be as hard as current heroics) and scenarios and LFR.

    this is a significant problem with the currrent game in my opinion.


    tl;dr : make HEROIC dungeons difficult, requiring thought and time, AND (this is also important) provide adequate reward for taking the time and energy to do these dungeons.
    They DID that. In Cataclysm. You did play the first 3 months of cata right? Where the forums were alight in casual player tears as they couldn't beat X and X boss in X and X instance (Vanessa Vancleef in Deadmines often filling those shoes). The dungeons did require a brain, and did require a thought process. And those that had brains and could have a legitimate thought were the ones that got volcanic stone drakes in the first month, or at the very least valor capped. Everyone else was thrown to the wolves in the streamlined horse shit they call LFD which is obviously not taking a leave any time soon.

    Additionally, 5 mans rewarding current raid tier loot is just bonkers. Blizzard's raid focus is to get more people into raiding to justify the development teams hundreds of thousands of hours balancing, designing, making and fixing each and every raid. You're right in saying Heroic hasn't applied to 5 mans since TBC, but you'd be wrong in saying that's a bad thing. Leave the tedious, eccentric "need a second job and have all the skill in the world" to the heroic raiders and keep the casual in "heroic" 5 mans, normal, flex and lfr raids.

    Additionally if you want to be 5 man exclusive, there are 5 mans out there to suit your needs. They are called challenge modes. You have to pull the instance perfectly and make sure you do it in perfect time. If that doesn't scream TBC challenge for you, then you're apart of the demographic Blizzard stopped catering to since 2007.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by vholu View Post
    I'd vote for super hard dungeons dropping LFR. And I mean super hard, like Rift Tier 1/2 dungeons. BC difficulty.
    Rift T1/2 dungeons, at least back in Vanilla Rift, were not that hard.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  11. #131
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    They DID that. In Cataclysm. You did play the first 3 months of cata right? Where the forums were alight in casual player tears as they couldn't beat X and X boss in X and X instance (Vanessa Vancleef in Deadmines often filling those shoes).
    The funny thing is..I keep hearing this claim - yet these days it appears the forums are awash in the tears of the so-called hardcore. So if all it needs is a flood of tears, I guess you should soon get your really hard dungeons with exclusive rewards again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 01:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vholu View Post
    I'd vote for super hard dungeons dropping LFR. And I mean super hard, like Rift Tier 1/2 dungeons. BC difficulty.
    It appears there is a game that caters to your needs. Apparently it is Rift - so that is good. You have found what you like.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    For me, the heroic five mans in cata patches firelands and hour of twilight were the perfect gear progression for casual players and a great lead up to a slightly more challenging LFR raid than by todays standards.

    The Zul'Gurub and A'man were a nice challenge at the time and I thought the hour of twilight five mans were an absolute master piece!

    I can't but my finger on it but they were just amazing, I know that blizz has said they don't want ppl endlessly running five mans to progress whether it be for rep or whatever.

    But when and who said they didn't like doing that? I certainly don't count myself amongst the unhappy bunch who inspired scenerios (can't stand them btw).

    I also know that blizzard say that Dungeons take alot of work, but you know when it comes down to dungeons vs scenerios, I would sooner have less dungeons thanks. Much higher quality experience.

    So I have been disappointed patch after patch with MoP from a dungeon perspective (I actually think the ToT content is great minus the mandatory scenerios).

    So I am hoping for some to appear just like the epic dropping, lore rich, challenging experiences we had back in cata.

    Anyone in agreement?
    Considering how 5 mans in Cata were for the most part endlessly bitched about and slammed it is absolutely absurd for you to be saying what you are saying. Are you really implying DS LFR was more challenging? Really? If you like challenging content go do challenge modes and stop whining about heroic 5 mans.

  13. #133
    I liked cata dungeons but hated hour of twilight tbh...
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  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwolfe View Post
    The cata heroics is what drove myself and my family to leave wow for the rest of cata.
    I know we ALL let blizzard know why in our exit questions.
    Too bad there's no "why you keep playing" questions. It'd be nice if every time Blizzard THINKS they caught on what's bad in game according to all those leavers, they'd post an in-game poll to see how many people actually support this or think completely opposite.

    Cataclysm start was very, very refreshing experience after LK zergfest. My wife joined late in Cataclysm and couldn't experience it because start dungeons were completely outgeared by then, but I told her to wait for next expansions start to see how dungeons are really supposed to be played. Imagine our both disappointment with "there will be no heroics, we'll simply slap same name on all 90s" shit.
    Last edited by rowaasr13; 2013-06-24 at 04:29 PM.

  15. #135
    I don't get why the current dungeons aren't scaled up over time, raise the ilvl on the items, and they stay relevant. Right now, they aren't fun after the first few weeks, and people just run 4-5 to get into LFR.

    The content is so trivial that no one does it for any length of time. Blizzard wants people to stay logged in? Stop making stuff that allows people to leapfrog everything.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Congratulations, you're the minority. The game has evolved since then, and I'm sure the majority of players have more fun being raid ready within 2 days than "working [their] way up slowly" and having it take weeks/months before they can enjoy themselves.
    According to other treads, number of normal raiders is now way down. Where are all those happy fun 2 days ready people, hm?

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrage View Post
    2 words:

    Challenge modes
    The challenge in challenge modes isn't the difficulty of the content. It's trying to sprint through the thing chain-pulling without getting anything extra or making any mistakes. If all you want to do is clear them, even for bronze or silver times, it's only a little more difficult than your standard heroic dungeon.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    No one wants to spend 3 hours in a dungeon.
    I wouldn't say no one.

    But they really REALLY need to add 5-man progression tiering. So that there are may be 8 5-mans that you can start gearing up with that give blues with more 5-mans later that give higher level loot but are tougher and then a final tier. All of them should be DIFFERENT 5-mans, not harder versions of the same 5-mans. And then challenge modes for ALL of them that give raid-level loot.
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  19. #139
    I lmao everytime now i hear people say the heroics in cata were better. All it takes are new ones people like even less to make ones they thought sucked because they were way too hard before seem amazing now.

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