Windwalker Tier 15 why I don't think we need it.

[Requital]

I haven't been posting lately but I have been getting a lot of questions via bnet and ingame as to why I have stopped using 4PC and since I get these questions daily I figured it would be just as useful to post my thoughts here rather than continue to answer the questions each day.

2PC - Over the course of a fight you can probably gain 200 energy if you run over every energy sphere, I don't know about your raid but there are some fights I can't just freely run all over the place to collect an energy sphere so I don't. Now if they are around I do grab them but let's be serious that 200 extra energy is more noticeable when you don't gave 8700 haste from gear.

4PC - Over the course of a 10 min fight if it's 10% you gain 10 stacks, I personally don't know if I agree that those stacks are as important as the amount of additional secondary stats you can get from increasing all set pieces to H TF (549) instead of H (535). Now like I said this is personal preference I have no math or number crunching that has been done at this point so don't starting asking for proof as it's not so simple to prove.

From a pure number standpoint my current setup using any and all H TF gear I can get I have far more hit than I prefer but we all know how that goes. By choice I would be using a completely different setup and I'm going calculate the amount of Mastery one would achieve during proc of the trinket using tier gear vs all ilevel gear but I would be willing to bet if you are able to get 5PC HTF over 4PC Tier + 1 HTF the values would be more substantial than that of 10% chance to generate 1 extra TeB stack.

In my current gear which I'm using 3PC T15 and 2PC HTF I'm sitting at a 34,xxx proc.


I have yet to see someone in BiS using 4PC but Valfar is pretty close and with proper reforging/gemming his values would be around 94xx across the board. That would be a 37,xxx Mastery Proc from RoR.

If you take all the max ilevel gear you can get, Take sockets over high agility you can hit a 40,xxx proc. Personally I think the 40,xxx proc will net more overall dps than that of our 2 or 4pc. Now I could be wrong but I doubt it however this is merely number crunching and guesstimating.


So there you have it, That is why I am not using 4PC anymore and plan to drop 2PC as well.

[Deleted]

Pretty sure this could be easily simulated with simcraft unless the 2pc isn't implemented?

[Xifangbaihu]

Hey Rel, thanks for the post. I am just curious, for the sake of discussion, would the set bonuses be a gain if you do not have RoRo? I ask Since there may likely be that inevitable nerf to the trinket come the next patch and we'll be replacing it, would the bonuses be worth a gain in a situation of having regular trinkets (static stats + stat proc, e.g. bad juju)?

[Requital]

Pretty sure this could be easily simulated with simcraft unless the 2pc isn't implemented?

I'm sure it is probably 2 and 4pc I just don't feel like the % chance benefits the secondary stats we can gain.

[Deleted]

I remember doing sims without the upgrade system in place.

4p was about 3k above non-tier (Using heroic TF). Don't know if it would change much with the new upgrade system.

[Requital]

Hey Rel, thanks for the post. I am just curious, for the sake of discussion, would the set bonuses be a gain if you do not have RoRo? I ask Since there may likely be that inevitable nerf to the trinket come the next patch and we'll be replacing it, would the bonuses be worth a gain in a situation of having regular trinkets (static stats + stat proc, e.g. bad juju)?

I don't think we will be replacing the trinket until the end of the tier. There have been a lot of trinkets that have lasted two tiers and they allowed it. The issue I see with this trinket is the higher the ilevel gear we get the more potent it becomes.

but we will either see a Mastery nerf to offset the trinket or a proc nerf to offset the damage. Whatever they do it will have to be drastic.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 09:27 PM ----------

I remember doing sims without the upgrade system in place.

4p was about 3k above non-tier (Using heroic TF). Don't know if it would change much with the new upgrade system.

how long ago did you do that sim?

[Deleted]

I did about 4-5 weeks IIRC. But by no means was it the best reforging set-up you can get as I had limited resources. I would still be incredibly interested in a proper sim being run.

One big issue with running with heroic TF gear over tier is the fact of getting it.

[Lissa]

I swapped out 4pc for 2pc + heroic tf this reset, planning on testing it out tomorrow. Sims say it's a slight dps decrease (about 2k iirc?), but I prefer testing it out myself as I'm a person and not a robot and won't ever be able to play exactly like simcraft.

Has the monk model been updated since the heroic t15 rankings were listed on simcraft.org btw? Since that bis list is telling you to go with minimal crit and 10k haste.

Currently sitting at 36,3k mastery during roro; 177% damage increase without mastery buff.

[keithioapc]

First off, Lissa you are my mortal enemy, please stop beating my LFR parses.

Second, the 4 piece is roughly equivalent to +10% mastery, using the relative value for mastery of a no RoRo monk.

Seeing as I have ~12200 mastery (inc raidbuff)... it's worth ~1220 mastery.

I agree, the stats you get from full thunderforged offpieces is better than that. Even just helm/pants/chest would beat it probably.

However, I for one do not have any thunderforged offpieces.

[Requital]

I dunno how far in or out of date that simcraft is for Monks but the BiS profile for T15 is way off so who knows.

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:26 PM ----------

I swapped out 4pc for 2pc + heroic tf this reset, planning on testing it out tomorrow. Sims say it's a slight dps decrease (about 2k iirc?), but I prefer testing it out myself as I'm a person and not a robot and won't ever be able to play exactly like simcraft.

Has the monk model been updated since the heroic t15 rankings were listed on simcraft.org btw? Since that bis list is telling you to go with minimal crit and 10k haste.

Currently sitting at 36,3k mastery during roro; 177% damage increase without mastery buff.

WTB not being sat for Ra-den so I can scoop that chest also what are runestones?

---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 11:28 PM ----------

I did about 4-5 weeks IIRC. But by no means was it the best reforging set-up you can get as I had limited resources. I would still be incredibly interested in a proper sim being run.

One big issue with running with heroic TF gear over tier is the fact of getting it.

Yes hard as shit if you are doing 10 man raiding but there is a lot of H TF leather that no one wants.

[Pandorox]

Not to derail the thread or anything but I'm just curious how you top end monks reforge/gem for RoRo. Any sims or anything??

[Grimkeg]

Reforging/gems with RoR: Zephyrus
With BiS gear (especially cloak) we should be able to get around 10k of each secondary stat. With a second tf weapon, tf animus ring, ra-den belt and legendary cloak zephyrus puts me at 10100 crit/haste/mastery (and 100 hit over cap). I like the idea of going for nonset items, but we'd need to make good use of the stats (example: changing my setgloves to prim. tf gloves would give me additional hit i can't forge/socket away, so no real gain there).

[Requital]

Reforging/gems with RoR: Zephyrus
With BiS gear (especially cloak) we should be able to get around 10k of each secondary stat. With a second tf weapon, tf animus ring, ra-den belt and legendary cloak zephyrus puts me at 10100 crit/haste/mastery (and 100 hit over cap). I like the idea of going for nonset items, but we'd need to make good use of the stats (example: changing my setgloves to prim. tf gloves would give me additional hit i can't forge/socket away, so no real gain there).

You don't need to gem for sockets, You should look at gemming for max proc. Anyway tonight I got my tier chest which for me is better than the Heroic TF chest I have which is hit/crit, in fact all 3 of my heroic tf offset pieces have hit so they are the shitty pieces.

After tonight I pushed myself up to 9047/9045/9045 2550/2550 so now sitting @ 186% Damage done in raid. Just need some good solid gear with proper stats and sockets!

Sitting @ 190K on the target dummy self buffed I'm ok with that.

[Deleted]

Another thing to take into consideration is how HC TF Rune and 4set work together.

I personally have HC Rune and the extra procs really help sometimes especially when you are getting a lot of procs in a short space of time. Obviously it's all RNG but its something to think about.

[NeverStop]

This is what I came up with for BiS:

http://i.imgur.com/Te0bMWm.png

Simcraft gear:

origin="http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear"
level=90
race=pandaren
role=attack
spec=windwalker
professions=Leatherworking=600/Enchanting=600
talents=212332
glyphs=zen_meditation/retreat/touch_of_karma

head=lightningeye_hood,id=96742,stats=2765armor_1764agi_3006sta_1157haste_1235mastery,gems=capacitive_primal_320crit_180agi
neck=quadrahead_brooch,id=96815,stats=1036agi_1675sta_704hit_704mastery,gems=320haste_60crit,reforge=mastery_haste
shoulders=poisonblood_bladeshoulders,id=96816,stats=2552armor_1409agi_2233sta_953haste_953mastery,gems=320haste_60haste,enchant=200agi_100crit
chest=chestguard_of_coruscating_blades,id=95033,stats=3403armor_1764agi_3006sta_1183crit_1236haste,gems=160exp_160mastery_160exp_160mastery_160exp_160mastery_180agi,enchant=80all,reforge=crit_mastery
waist=strap_of_murderous_strikes,id=94998,stats=1914armor_1329agi_2233sta_987crit_799mastery,gems=160crit_160hit_160crit_160hit_320haste_120agi,reforge=mastery_hit
legs=worldbinder_leggings,id=96891,stats=2977armor_1844agi_3006sta_997crit_1408mastery,gems=320mastery_160crit_160hit_120agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,reforge=mastery_exp
feet=spurs_of_the_storm_cavalry,id=96903,stats=2339armor_1409agi_2233sta_945crit_961mastery,gems=320haste_60mastery,enchant=140agi
wrists=bindings_of_multiplicative_strikes,id=96764,stats=1489armor_1116agi_1675sta_756crit_726haste,enchant=500agi
hands=gloves_of_cushioned_air,id=96865,stats=2127armor_1329agi_2233sta_751crit_1015mastery,gems=160hit_160mastery_160hit_160mastery_120agi,enchant=170mastery,reforge=mastery_hit
finger1=sign_of_the_bloodied_god,id=96740,stats=1116agi_1675sta_744haste_744mastery,enchant=160agi,reforge=mastery_crit
finger2=goresoaked_gear,id=96885,stats=1036agi_1675sta_734crit_637haste,gems=320haste_60crit,enchant=160agi
trinket1=rune_of_reorigination,id=96918,upgrade=2
trinket2=renatakis_soul_charm,id=96741,upgrade=2,reforge=exp_haste
back=tigerfang_wrap,id=98148,stats=1555armor_1855agi_2902sta_991crit_991haste_991mastery,gems=160exp_160mastery_60agi,enchant=180crit
main_hand=kurakura_kazrajins_skullcleaver,id=96782,stats=779agi_1288sta_533crit_533mastery,gems=160hit_160mastery_320haste_60agi,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=mastery_exp,weapon=axe_2.6speed_9882min_18354max
off_hand=kurakura_kazrajins_skullcleaver,id=96782,stats=779agi_1288sta_533crit_533mastery,gems=160haste_160hit_320haste_60agi,enchant=dancing_steel,weapon=axe_2.6speed_9882min_18354max

You get a 960 higher proc if you have Blacksmithing.

[Lissa]

First off, Lissa you are my mortal enemy, please stop beating my LFR parses.

Wow! You'll be happy to know I mostly do LFR as mistweaver nowadays, then.

This is what I came up with for BiS:

http://i.imgur.com/Te0bMWm.png

This certainly looks a lot better than the Simcraft bis profile. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what I was going for.

[Almex]

You don't need to gem for sockets, You should look at gemming for max proc. Anyway tonight I got my tier chest which for me is better than the Heroic TF chest I have which is hit/crit, in fact all 3 of my heroic tf offset pieces have hit so they are the shitty pieces.

After tonight I pushed myself up to 9047/9045/9045 2550/2550 so now sitting @ 186% Damage done in raid. Just need some good solid gear with proper stats and sockets!

Sitting @ 190K on the target dummy self buffed I'm ok with that.

190k on dummy self buffed, is that with or without Xuen the white tiger?

[Grimkeg]

This is what I came up with for BiS:

http://i.imgur.com/Te0bMWm.png

Let's take a closer look at what would happen if I get my missing pieces:
549 Animus ring: 136 agility, 177 secondary stats
549 Ra-den belt: 182 agility, 273 secondary stats (+changing socket bonus from 120 haste to 120 agi, disregarding that for the moment)
549 Wu-Lai: 46 agility, 60 secondary stats
Total: 364 agility, 510 secondary stats
After reforging and gemming your profile has 640 agility more, but 40 sec. stats less (overall, not per stat). That's when comparing the both gearsets without professions.
Question: Whats worth more? 640 agility or our 2p + 4p?
I think it's a close call, so unless you can get thunderforge loot on every single set slot, I'd stick with the set.

[Lissa]

I think it's a close call, so unless you can get thunderforge loot on every single set slot, I'd stick with the set.

That's the point though. I wouldn't swap away from tier if the other pieces weren't tf.

Also consider the benfits of next tier - you can easily swap to the higher ilvl pieces without having to worry about what's an upgrade in regards to moving away from set bonuses. Maybe nobody else cares, but it's something I've found annoying in the past.

[Saltycracker]

Depends how your hit/expertise picture looks, but the 4pc is a wash compared to HTF gears, as I simmed it out. Your mileage may vary.

The 2pc is still a DPS gain for patchwerk type encounters, but medium movement encounters will start to cap your energy unless you are glued to the bosses ass.

Idk if you want to have two RORO balanced gear sets for different encounters for parse chasing, but it would be interesting to see your results for back to back weeks with and without the two piece.