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  1. #541
    MoP has been the most consistently good raiding expansion so far. Sure there have been some dud bosses, but nothing on the order of magniture of Naxx-25 or Trial of the Crusader ruining an entire tier. Sure Ulduar was amazing, but Wrath was only 2 great raiding tiers out of 4. I guess we'll have to see how Siege measures up, but I'm cautiously optimistic based on T14 and T15.

  2. #542
    Mm Mimiron HC pre nerf, enjoyed it more than my LC HK25 world#13. <3

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 09:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    He was talking about hardmode fights.

    I agree the overall pugging was easier in Wrath... but hes saying that stuff like Yogg+0 and TOGC insanity were all piss easy to pug... thats simply not the case at all.

    Was Firefighter really easy to pug?

    ofc not lol
    He is obivously speaking of the normal verion after nerfs, being overgeared. As you say they were not easy and noone no matter how much noob would claim yog 0 was pugable or even remotely easy at hardmode during current content.

    So leave him be and just acknowledge he is one of those players that do old content after nerfs, when overgeared on the easiest setting and complain it is too easy.
    I think the name is Casual Player
    Last edited by Bakis; 2013-06-21 at 09:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooMuch View Post
    Like said before, I am in Boston this week and if you are the big man you claim to be, come visit me. I'll PM you the hotel and room number. Let's see if you are such a hero in real life too, like you claim to be.

  3. #543
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    stuff like Yogg+0 and TOGC insanity were all piss easy to pug... thats simply not the case at all.
    Except I never said they were piss easy to pug.
    I never mentioned pugging ToGC at all.
    Regarding Yogg+0, I said that "there were even PUGs going for the mount". Obviously, all of that was done in ICC hc gear, and there were couple of PUG groups (which were alts/mains of raiders from different guilds) on my realm that went there and cleared it for the mount. I didn't say that anyone could just waltz in and kill it.

    I think that some reading comprehension would help you a lot.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 13/14H.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    He is obivously speaking of the normal verion after nerfs, being overgeared. As you say they were not easy and noone no matter how much noob would claim yog 0 was pugable or even remotely easy at hardmode during current content.

    So leave him be and just acknowledge he is one of those players that do old content after nerfs, when overgeared on the easiest setting and complain it is too easy.
    I think the name is Casual Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    Except I never said they were piss easy to pug.
    I never mentioned pugging ToGC at all.
    Regarding Yogg+0, I said that "there were even PUGs going for the mount". Obviously, all of that was done in ICC hc gear, and there were couple of PUG groups (which were alts/mains of raiders from different guilds) on my realm that went there and cleared it for the mount. I didn't say that anyone could just waltz in and kill it.

    I think that some reading comprehension would help you a lot.
    I refer u to Lethora post #532

    He clearly says TRIBUTE TO INSANITY and that is TOGC.

    His general post was making the point that he thinks Wrath heroic content was so easy it was easily puggable... thats not true. Even at the end of the expansion pugging the toughest Wrath fights wasnt common and it certainly wasnt done by average raiders... it was pugged by the leets who had been doing it alot in their guilds and therefore knew the fights v well.
    Last edited by Endemonadia; 2013-06-21 at 10:24 AM.

  5. #545
    Well I can't say anything till SoO is out.

    A couple of things I can say though.

    If 5.4 is out in September some time we will have had 3 unique big raid tiers including 43 bosses (excluding world bosses) in less time than T10 was out on its own (ICC).

    I really liked Ulduar and ICC but ToC and Naxx 2.0 where blemishes on WotLK which was a very very long expansion.

    I am very interested what Virtual Servers and Flex Raiding does for the PuG scene as well.

    From my personal PoV T11 is my favorite tier of raiding though, and I really liked T14 (I actually prefer having multiple raids per Tier).

    MoP is doing very very well from a raiding pov.

  6. #546
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    Why not? Challenge is always good. I mean, it's fun to watch the world-first race and then it's fun to wipe on challenging stuff. Normal mode is well-tuned in my opinion, since most guilds still haven't finished it.
    That's a perfectly valid opinion, I'm honestly not trying to rob you of it. What you have to understand is that it's nothing more than your opinion. What I'm saying is that the world-first race was there in WotLK when the content was easier as a whole, and the top end of the PvE playerbase didn't conclude it was too easy and go somewhere else; equally, there's no reason to believe they'd depart if the toughest content was made easier with just a couple of ball-busters along the way as it was in Wrath.

    In fact, there are many legitimate arguments that stipulate the raiding community would be healthier for those at the top if the game wasn't so punitive on its easier modes and the learning curve was treated properly. Recruitment and churn are two concepts any decent guild will understand explicitly, and I think the significant majority of recruiters in those guilds would admit that it's become harder. Hell, entire guilds move server in order to get better recruits and stay competitive while we're now seeing a general migration towards the Horde because that's where the top players are. These are not mere coincidences.

    Saying challenge is good is fair enough, but the level of challenge in World of Warcraft today has gotten absurd. Not only do you have to commit the time to getting the best gear, use timers to maximise your output, spend time out of the game to learn the toughest encounters and use mods to help you with said encounters, you also then need to commit a ludicrous amount of time if you want to be part of the world first race, and still need to stick to a schedule if you're just trying to compete on your own server.

    This behaviour is relatively unique to this genre, it's most widespread with World of Warcraft, and there's absolutely no need for it. This is a game. That's all - it's a game. Those who chime in about "entitlement" and "cry babies who want everything now" are invariably forgetting this fact entirely. The problem is not with the people who want to log on, do a bit of raiding with their chums and kill some bosses for epic loot; the problem is with those at the top who are willing to put hours upon hours into a progression boss and potentially get nothing from it.

    I'm not criticizing the people that want this mega-challenge, nor do I believe people are lying when they say they enjoy wiping and working to overcome a drastically difficult encounter. But the majority of what those players describe is flat-out masochism, which means their sneering at those unwilling to put in that time is a pretty obvious psychological projection of their own insecurity. If you take a look at the posts by Koeren (a top, top raider), for example, they're always reasoned, eloquent and appreciative of "the other side of the debate" because he clearly doesn't feel a need to prove himself or justify his choices to anyone. Then take a look at the posts by nemro82, and you see the other side of this divide in the community.

    There's more to this discussion, however, and that's where game design comes in. I'm fairly comfortable in putting forth the opinion that nothing is mechanically too difficult for the top guilds anymore. Nothing. Within a day or so, the top guilds will have learned an encounter mechanically and will only be held back by output; you could simplify this to say "gear". When you watch Method's Lei Shen heroic kill, you see them using warlock portals in phase 3 in order to make sure Thunderstruck is nowhere near the main raid (stacked on the boss) who are trying to deeps him as hard as possible - this is to account for the lower level of gear and the damage Thunderstruck would do otherwise. In short, the top guilds are actually capable of making an encounter HARDER in order to beat it prior to the gear curve catching up to it.

    Blizzard simply can't design against this level of capability. They have to use gates, whether they're hard or whether they're hidden. I'm actually a fan of hard gates, but "gear" is probably the worst one out there. It's basically saying that though you've learned an encounter, you can't kill it because you just don't have the gear - sucks to be you. Progress is halted by RNG, not ability, and that's frustrating.

    Who cares?

    Well, everyone. Blizzard is trying to make encounters that are difficult for players that are simply too good at the game for the approach to be successful. You simply can't come up with a mechanic that's too hard for those players. This has dragged the overall difficulty of the content up, pricing out those new to the game or more casual in their approach in the process. Effectively, I'm saying that Blizzard are destroying their own raiding community by trying to provide a challenge for those who can't realistically be challenged. To me, this is just the wrong approach. A nasty side-effect of this (mentioned by my blogging friend Kadomi) is that flexi-mode is potentially going to kill normal mode as a legitimate raiding platform because it's serving as little more than a single-reset gate before guilds get started on heroic progression.

    I know I've gone on a bit here, but I'm trying to give you enough information about my views so that you can see why I say "the game doesn't need to be as hard as it is". You could make the game effectively harder by simplifying encounters, but breaking things like DBM or BigWigs in order to accommodate. You could do away with an entire heroic tier, but put heroic bosses in where it makes sense to change up an encounter enough to justify it. This worked for Ulduar, which is widely considered the greatest raid the game has ever seen.

    Anyway, that's enough. I hope you see my view a bit clearer now, and that you can appreciate why I say what I do. I'm not trying to cause an argument or vilify one section of the community, I just think the priorities are ass-backward and it's not doing the game, or its community, any good at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  7. #547
    For me its BC>Mists>wotlk>cata

    EU-Frostwolf Reckless T14: 16/16Hc T15: 13/13Hc T16: 14/14Hc

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I refer u to Lethora post #532

    He clearly says TRIBUTE TO INSANITY and that is TOGC.

    His general post was making the point that he thinks Wrath heroic content was so easy it was easily puggable... thats not true. Even at the end of the expansion pugging the toughest Wrath fights wasnt common and it certainly wasnt done by average raiders... it was pugged by the leets who had been doing it alot in their guilds and therefore knew the fights v well.
    I pugged togc and Icc heroics when they were current but i wasn't good enough to finish ulduar. We almost downed anub on heroic with 45 attempts remaining but this warlock kept messing up man.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    TBC was best by far but for fewer players. Casuals had no place back then just like it should be.
    I enjoyed it way more and other than that Ulduar has to be mentioned. Up there on pair with Sunwell in terms of scenary, encounters and atmopshere.
    I think it was easier to social in tbc then now, then was far more to do as everything was 10x more fun! It wasn't easy compared to now.

  10. #550
    Honestly, too early to tell since SoO isn't out yet, but to address the question, I would put TBC up top, followed by Wrath, then MoP. Hard for me to fit classic in, since I barely did any raiding during that time. Cata, on the other hand...ugh.

  11. #551
    Being someone who played since Vanilla and without judging a raid on the difficulty of it's content I would say the best raid encounter is a 3 way tie between Bwl/Naxx/ICC, though if you threw difficulty into the equation Bwl is replaced by AQ40 and Icc is replaced with Sunwell (though other than the challenge offered both feel inferior to the original 3 I listed.

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