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Chromaggus before also required people to actually pay attention...
Plenty of fights had awkward mechanics. I'm not even sure why people say this.
If people think they're simplistic now, it's because they can burn through it. More than likely - if everyone went back to 60 now, they would find it easier because they had knowledge of everything too - but that's not the whole reason.
Vanilla progress was 10x harder and 10x more demanding than progressing, the last many expansions.
Cata onwards threat was really easy for me to maintain.
A huge factor in Vanilla vs today's raids is that our characters were no where near as powerful as they are today. There have been a ton of quality of life improvements from 2005 to today. A fight like Ragnaros was difficult back then because of the limits of the gear and the classes along with being the first final raid boss in Wow (not counting the old 20/40 mans).
If we had the class strengths and improvements of today in Vanilla Wow, the place would have been cleared with blue gear. Stuff like hots/dots critting, old talents and glyphs being baked in classes, critical spells of all schools critting for 200% without talents, amazing abilities like Heroic Leap/Misdirection/Demonic Portals/etc and more stuff that were not in Vanilla Wow would make a huge difference.
Throw in easier to obtain flasks, profession bonus ability, reforging, lack of item ratings (Items used to be pure 1-2% crit/hit), no haste/mastery and more and you have a very different game.
That doesn't mean it needs to go away forever or it is not fun. I for one liked threat and the only single reason why they removed it was because it was possible to fail hard on it and make the whole group grieve (to make it easier). They didn't actually remove it but they made it so it barely mattered anymore. And guess when they started doing that? Just after they introduced LFD.
I laughed hard when they came with that 300% threat multiplier on all spells for tanks AFTER they had already nerfed threat to nothing and AFTER they gave every tank ridiculous AoE capabilities. Like it wasn't easy enough already. And afterwards they claim threat wasn't that much fun and now everyone uses that as an argument while using CD's or potions or whatever is pretty much the same thing.
---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 12:32 PM ----------
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Been there done that. Not hard actually. Only chalenge was beginning of p3 when 40 bone constructs spawn - half of our raid always dc'd in that moment so rest had to keep it up till dc'd logs back. That was only chalenge in Nef encounter.
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again, complex does not mean hard.
I guess to an extent, a big part of vanilla and BC nostalgia hails from the simplicity of those fights (combined to their difficulty and exclusivity).
simple things tend to be fun. mega-man X is my favorite game ever. megaman X7 was terrible, IMHO. why? because they introduced many things that made the game overly complex like 3D movement, axel's A-trans, zero's weapon management, X had to be unlocked, et cetera. and yet, with all those bothersome things added to the game's formula, it was WAY easier than megaman X.
I think that's why when blizz makes a complex fight like dark animus, people call it a "gimmick fight". because they are overly complicated (either mechanic-wise or in the execution), and they often don't let you do exactly what you got used to doing in boss fights since vanilla. yet, these "gimmick fights" must exist, because if blizz had maintained their simple boss fights, every boss nowadays would end up being a clone of some old boss with different art. complexity rose due to the necessity of originality.
mechanic-wise, horridon may as well be the most complex fight ever, just due to the incridible amount of different abilities used by the boss and it's adds, and their relation to the zone's geography. it may be an easy fight, but it's a hell of a complex one.
Last edited by checking facts; 2013-06-20 at 02:48 PM.
Horridon --- don't stand in things, kill large adds. Like, it's not hard to boil down fights to things that aren't any more difficult than before. M'uru was the same thing. Kill adds on the side, with correct focus firing. Team in the middle has to kill voids/elementals in their own way. Then next phase against just the boss.
You want me to explain to you why Vashj would be more complex than anything in Throne? I don't even know why this is a discussion topic.
a raid fight is the same. horridon spawns a big number of adds of different types with different attacks involving different game mechanics, and he himself has a few moves of his own, and the fight is tied to the four doors and four special adds and four itens that those adds spawn when they use a certain skill at a certain hp percentage, and using that makes horridon interact with a door, which places a debuff on him.
sure, you can simplify the execution for strategy purposes. "don't stand in things, kill large adds, press button, change door, repeat 3 times, kill big guy, kill boss". but that doesn't make the fight any less mechanically complex.
in all my years of warcraft, I can't really remember a fight as complex as that. that lady deathwhisper from ICC was a close second, IMHO, but horridon is more.
Last edited by checking facts; 2013-06-20 at 03:02 PM.
Although BWL was one of the first raids to feature a fair amount of strategy, the tactics were the least of your worries.
The hard part was getting the correct amount of resistance gear to drop, and BWL gave you an extra kick in the bollocks by having encounters that would instantly kill you if you hadn't made a special cloak that you could only get by skinning Onyxia... An average of 3 a week meant you'd need to be farming her for at least 13 weeks before you could even look at more than the first three bosses in BWL. And that's if everyone you gave the cloak to bothered to turn up, and hadn't been poached by the guild above that needed them because they'd burnt out all their healers and couldn't be bothered to gear more...
Modern WoW finds it's difficulty in more than just mind numbing grinding.
#5 is still happening til this day.
#6 is also still happening til this day for majority of the guilds, but maybe less obvious, at the end of the day, you rather have the numbers than raid being handicapped, except for fights like Yogg+0 though.
Jin'rokh, Tortos and Primordius are more complex than the last 3 bosses in SW or Lady Vashj?
Look it's quite obvious you didn't progressraid back when the content was new. If you think fights back then didn't have complex mechanics then read this http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t25167-eredar_twins/
Last edited by Dangg; 2013-06-20 at 03:44 PM.