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  1. #41
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    You had some pretty shit tanks then, that's why I think threat matters, it shows a good and bad tank stand out.
    Not at all, we had a VERY good tank. Ret and Fury Warrior threat was just through the roof (especially remember the situation on Cho'gall HC). That was at the start of Cata, everyone was having problems if I'm not mistaken, that's why they implemented some sort of threat buff in the next patch.

  2. #42
    Chromaggus before also required people to actually pay attention...

    Plenty of fights had awkward mechanics. I'm not even sure why people say this.

    If people think they're simplistic now, it's because they can burn through it. More than likely - if everyone went back to 60 now, they would find it easier because they had knowledge of everything too - but that's not the whole reason.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    it was rare to see a vanilla or BC fight that was actually complex. they were mostly straightforward fights with unreasonable requirements for the players.
    Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, M'uru, Kil'jaeden, Eredari Twins, Kalecgos, just to name a bunch of fights that really aren't any less complex than most fights now. Unless you consider dodging turtles and caveins to be really complex.

  4. #44
    Vanilla progress was 10x harder and 10x more demanding than progressing, the last many expansions.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Not at all, we had a VERY good tank. Ret and Fury Warrior threat was just through the roof (especially remember the situation on Cho'gall HC). That was at the start of Cata, everyone was having problems if I'm not mistaken, that's why they implemented some sort of threat buff in the next patch.
    We had it different at start of cata. Our threat was immense. We did not have a Ret of Fury warrior in our raids though. Just lock mage rogue shaman hunter. Never had Threat issues. (maybe very rarely at the very start of the fight if i missed a DS but it was super rare).

    Cata onwards threat was really easy for me to maintain.

  6. #46
    A huge factor in Vanilla vs today's raids is that our characters were no where near as powerful as they are today. There have been a ton of quality of life improvements from 2005 to today. A fight like Ragnaros was difficult back then because of the limits of the gear and the classes along with being the first final raid boss in Wow (not counting the old 20/40 mans).

    If we had the class strengths and improvements of today in Vanilla Wow, the place would have been cleared with blue gear. Stuff like hots/dots critting, old talents and glyphs being baked in classes, critical spells of all schools critting for 200% without talents, amazing abilities like Heroic Leap/Misdirection/Demonic Portals/etc and more stuff that were not in Vanilla Wow would make a huge difference.

    Throw in easier to obtain flasks, profession bonus ability, reforging, lack of item ratings (Items used to be pure 1-2% crit/hit), no haste/mastery and more and you have a very different game.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Dropping threat never required skill... You blow your cd's and go high in threat and have to stop attacking for a few seconds, no skill in that. The fact that the dps were limited by threat is pretty stupid, anyway. Especially for classes with basic high threat and big cd's.

    At the start of Cata, our Warrior and Ret would need constant salv's at the start and if they didn't then they were dead. I'm glad threat on actual bosses doesn't exist anymore, maybe if they involved a certain mechanic involving the threat then it would be interesting, but the base threat is boring
    That is like saying looking at a CD timer and using a spell when the timer runs out takes no skill. Or popping a potion when bloodlust starts takes no skill. I guess nothing takes skill in WoW if you look at it like that.
    That doesn't mean it needs to go away forever or it is not fun. I for one liked threat and the only single reason why they removed it was because it was possible to fail hard on it and make the whole group grieve (to make it easier). They didn't actually remove it but they made it so it barely mattered anymore. And guess when they started doing that? Just after they introduced LFD.

    I laughed hard when they came with that 300% threat multiplier on all spells for tanks AFTER they had already nerfed threat to nothing and AFTER they gave every tank ridiculous AoE capabilities. Like it wasn't easy enough already. And afterwards they claim threat wasn't that much fun and now everyone uses that as an argument while using CD's or potions or whatever is pretty much the same thing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 12:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Not at all, we had a VERY good tank. Ret and Fury Warrior threat was just through the roof (especially remember the situation on Cho'gall HC). That was at the start of Cata, everyone was having problems if I'm not mistaken, that's why they implemented some sort of threat buff in the next patch.
    I'm not sure what the problem was with that. You could just wait one second unlike what players do now and start dpsing before the tank has even done anything.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I'm not sure what the problem was with that. You could just wait one second unlike what players do now and start dpsing before the tank has even done anything.
    What's the fun in that other than clinging to some old ritual that in reality does and shows nothing?

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nivis View Post
    I wish they'd bring back things like the hunter call. Would be hilarious in today's raid environments, especially LFR.
    Up until I quit, I always packed a spare bow on my hunter as a result of that fight.
    Since 9/11 the NSA has spent at least $70,000,000,000 while lying about their own effectiveness. Even if we sweep aside the extensive lawbreaking, ethical problems, economic damage, and abuse of power, the fact remains that the NSA makes us all less secure, running useless mass surveillance, with a handful of successes in other questionably legal programs.

  10. #50
    Been there done that. Not hard actually. Only chalenge was beginning of p3 when 40 bone constructs spawn - half of our raid always dc'd in that moment so rest had to keep it up till dc'd logs back. That was only chalenge in Nef encounter.
    Why you think the Net was born? Porn! Porn! Porn!

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, M'uru, Kil'jaeden, Eredari Twins, Kalecgos, just to name a bunch of fights that really aren't any less complex than most fights now. Unless you consider dodging turtles and caveins to be really complex.
    all of those are very simple, except maybe kael'thas. they were tuned hard and had multiple phases, but the mechanics involved were few and simple. MoP's easiest fights are more complex than those (except for kael'thas, though MoP's more complex fights are way more complex than kael'thas)

    again, complex does not mean hard.

    I guess to an extent, a big part of vanilla and BC nostalgia hails from the simplicity of those fights (combined to their difficulty and exclusivity).

    simple things tend to be fun. mega-man X is my favorite game ever. megaman X7 was terrible, IMHO. why? because they introduced many things that made the game overly complex like 3D movement, axel's A-trans, zero's weapon management, X had to be unlocked, et cetera. and yet, with all those bothersome things added to the game's formula, it was WAY easier than megaman X.

    I think that's why when blizz makes a complex fight like dark animus, people call it a "gimmick fight". because they are overly complicated (either mechanic-wise or in the execution), and they often don't let you do exactly what you got used to doing in boss fights since vanilla. yet, these "gimmick fights" must exist, because if blizz had maintained their simple boss fights, every boss nowadays would end up being a clone of some old boss with different art. complexity rose due to the necessity of originality.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    all of those are very simple, except maybe kael'thas. they were tuned hard and had multiple phases, but the mechanics involved were few and simple. MoP's easiest fights are more complex than those (except for kael'thas, though MoP's more complex fights are way more complex than kael'thas)
    Yeah, you're right. Jin'rohk is complex, Horridon is complex, Tortos is complex, Megeara is complex, Primordius is complex. Totally.

    Lei Shen can literally be boiled down to stack for some things, spread out for others. Easy peasy.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Yeah, you're right. Jin'rohk is complex, Horridon is complex, Tortos is complex, Megeara is complex, Primordius is complex. Totally.

    Lei Shen can literally be boiled down to stack for some things, spread out for others. Easy peasy.
    give me one reason why lady vashj would be more mechanically complex than any of those given fights.

    mechanic-wise, horridon may as well be the most complex fight ever, just due to the incridible amount of different abilities used by the boss and it's adds, and their relation to the zone's geography. it may be an easy fight, but it's a hell of a complex one.
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-06-20 at 02:48 PM.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  14. #54
    Horridon --- don't stand in things, kill large adds. Like, it's not hard to boil down fights to things that aren't any more difficult than before. M'uru was the same thing. Kill adds on the side, with correct focus firing. Team in the middle has to kill voids/elementals in their own way. Then next phase against just the boss.

    You want me to explain to you why Vashj would be more complex than anything in Throne? I don't even know why this is a discussion topic.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Horridon --- don't stand in things, kill large adds. Like, it's not hard to boil down fights to things that aren't any more difficult than before. M'uru was the same thing. Kill adds on the side, with correct focus firing. Team in the middle has to kill voids/elementals in their own way. Then next phase against just the boss.

    You want me to explain to you why Vashj would be more complex than anything in Throne? I don't even know why this is a discussion topic.
    I think you don't really understand what being mechanically complex is. you see, let's say I have an ipad. it's a very complex machine. can you make an ipad? I surely can't. but I can use an ipad just fine, because the operation, the execution, is easy. so it's a very complex machine, that's also pretty easy to use.

    a raid fight is the same. horridon spawns a big number of adds of different types with different attacks involving different game mechanics, and he himself has a few moves of his own, and the fight is tied to the four doors and four special adds and four itens that those adds spawn when they use a certain skill at a certain hp percentage, and using that makes horridon interact with a door, which places a debuff on him.

    sure, you can simplify the execution for strategy purposes. "don't stand in things, kill large adds, press button, change door, repeat 3 times, kill big guy, kill boss". but that doesn't make the fight any less mechanically complex.

    in all my years of warcraft, I can't really remember a fight as complex as that. that lady deathwhisper from ICC was a close second, IMHO, but horridon is more.
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-06-20 at 03:02 PM.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  16. #56
    Although BWL was one of the first raids to feature a fair amount of strategy, the tactics were the least of your worries.

    The hard part was getting the correct amount of resistance gear to drop, and BWL gave you an extra kick in the bollocks by having encounters that would instantly kill you if you hadn't made a special cloak that you could only get by skinning Onyxia... An average of 3 a week meant you'd need to be farming her for at least 13 weeks before you could even look at more than the first three bosses in BWL. And that's if everyone you gave the cloak to bothered to turn up, and hadn't been poached by the guild above that needed them because they'd burnt out all their healers and couldn't be bothered to gear more...

    Modern WoW finds it's difficulty in more than just mind numbing grinding.

  17. #57
    http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t6290-c_thun/

    If anyone wonders about Vanilla raids this is a very interesting thread.
    Blizzard used High-End guilds as beta testers for their raids in BWL and AQ40.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    it doesn't mean the fight is harder, but it definitely means the fight is more complex. a complex thing is one that combines lots of simple things. each mechanic is a simple thing. if a fight has lots of mechanics, it's a complex fight. that doesn't mean it's hard, by any means.

    but the majority of the difficulty from vanilla and BC hailed from:

    1 - unreasonable gear check to meet the requirement for the fight to be mathematically doable;
    2 - necessity of special gear sets for certain fights (resistance gear, for instance);
    3 - tight enrage timers, so the entire raid had to play very well with 0 lag to beat the encounter;
    4 - unreasonable but simple mechanics, such as Azgalor's Doom, that kills one person after 20 seconds (can't be avoided by any means) and spawns a doomguard;
    5 - some people would give up and to find replacements was a tough deal. guilds had to either steal players from other guilds, or spend months preparing a new guy, running him through raids they were already finished with, because of attunements and linear gear progression. it was easy to see raid groups getting crippled by the some core member quitting.
    6 - classes and specs were broken and there were lots of "wrong choices" a member of your raid could make and cripple the group.

    it was rare to see a vanilla or BC fight that was actually complex. they were mostly straightforward fights with unreasonable requirements for the players.
    I hope you are not serious bringing in #4 as an example, it is a joke, you have battle resses plus soulstones before you die. It's one of the easiest bosses ever, especially when you have a kitty that can dps just as good and offtank when needed. If anything, Winterchill was way harder with that larger than it's supposed to be DnD that takes % health away instead of a fixed amount of damage, together with the deadly random target gg frostbolt(back when it's relevant) with stun.

    #5 is still happening til this day.

    #6 is also still happening til this day for majority of the guilds, but maybe less obvious, at the end of the day, you rather have the numbers than raid being handicapped, except for fights like Yogg+0 though.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    all of those are very simple, except maybe kael'thas. they were tuned hard and had multiple phases, but the mechanics involved were few and simple. MoP's easiest fights are more complex than those (except for kael'thas, though MoP's more complex fights are way more complex than kael'thas)
    You should try do to them on a BC private server then instead on your LVL90 ignoring all strategy.


    Jin'rokh, Tortos and Primordius are more complex than the last 3 bosses in SW or Lady Vashj?

    Look it's quite obvious you didn't progressraid back when the content was new. If you think fights back then didn't have complex mechanics then read this http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t25167-eredar_twins/
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-06-20 at 03:44 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    You should try do to them on a BC private server then instead on your LVL90 ignoring all strategy.


    Jin'rokh, Tortos and Primordius are more complex than the last 3 bosses in SW or Lady Vashj?

    Look it's quite obvious you didn't progressraid back when the content was new.
    again, to prove your point, explain to me why those fights are any less complex, from a mechanical point of view, than lady vashj. just do it instead of using emoticons. if emoticons proved points, I could just spam them like this -> - and win all arguments lol
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

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