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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    again, to prove your point, explain to me why those fights are any less complex, from a mechanical point of view, than lady vashj. just do it instead of using emoticons. if emoticons proved points, I could just spam them like this -> - and win all arguments lol
    You are the one making inane claims so it's your burden of proof.
    Ignoring my accusation that you didn't play back then is also telling.

    Pointing me to a thread were people discuss their Jinrokh strategy over 40 pages might be a start.

    EDIT: http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t12533-lady_vashj/
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-06-20 at 04:02 PM.

  2. #62
    I'm not sure why you think the length of a specific EJ thread means anything.

    Here's an 75 page thread on Brutallus:

    http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t23789-b...gy_discussion/


    What do the number of pages in an EJ thread signify, really? The Archimonde thread is twice the size of the M'uru thread and full of people complaining about how their guildmates are idiots who can't click their tears.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    The combat in WoW was a lot clunkier and dumber back then which contributed a lot to the difficulty of some encounters. I don't think anyone says they didn't require a strategy though. That's just silly. Though its definitely the truth that encounters have become more difficult and complex in general over time.
    They did, largely through evolution. PCs and servers became much more powerful and broadband internet service became faster and more available which allowed much more sophisticated encounter design. Addons also evolved and became far more sophisticated with timers and warnings for everything which forced more complex mechanics in order to actually challenge the player instead of rote reactions to alarms. I do think they go overboard at times though, making the raid encounters more stressful than they need to be. (Could be more of a pacing issue, though.)

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    again, to prove your point, explain to me why those fights are any less complex, from a mechanical point of view, than lady vashj. just do it instead of using emoticons. if emoticons proved points, I could just spam them like this -> - and win all arguments lol
    A boss is more than just his mechanics. Its a combination of mechanics, dps of the boss, hps of the raid, instant wipe mechanics, HP of the boss (enrage timer, fight length) and interaction with the spells/talents of the given raid.
    A fight like Eredar Twins would be much more easier today just because of the smart heals we have today. A fight can get hard because you dont have some spells you have today and be more limited. As healer back in Vanilla downranking (and mana management) was part of your game.

    Its easy to judge former fights with today knowledge and abilities. And pretty sure those fights would still be hard today if people had more or less the same abilities.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    You are the one making inane claims so it's your burden of proof.
    Ignoring my accusation that you didn't play back then is also telling.

    Pointing me to a thread were people discuss their Jinrokh strategy over 40 pages might be a start.

    EDIT: http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t12533-lady_vashj/
    There aren't 40 page threads on raid strategy anymore because people don't discuss strategies on forums like they used to. One guild makes a video, most others watch the video. Occasionally when a guild is stuck, someone asks a question, which one person answers. That's why you don't see long discussions of raid strategy anymore.

    The Lady Vashj strat wasn't really that hard. If you read ONLY the first page of that thread, you would have more than enough knowledge to execute the fight. What made the fight hard was the strict dps requirements...if you weren't killing one type of add before the same one spawned again, you were not going to make it.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I'm not sure why you think the length of a specific EJ thread means anything.
    Did you read it at all?
    If you played back in Sunwell you would know that Eredar Twins where killed in many different ways/positioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daveon View Post
    What made the fight hard was the strict dps requirements...if you weren't killing one type of add before the same one spawned again, you were not going to make it.
    No that's wrong again, you have no clue.

    The only thing you'd need to do is to read the fucking first post of the EJ thread that there were much more things that could wipe you other than not enough dps.

    You can't honestly tell me you've never had problems with phase transition from 2 to 3 espacially, people dying due to aggro reset, tank dmg, kiting (there where different classes viable and tried out), throwing the core due to los, no elemental despawns, right positioning of damage dealers at the spawns (also needed try and error to find the most valuable classes) when attempting the boss...?

    Oh right....


    I swear the damn internet. Were everybody knows how shit works that they didn't do themselves.
    Reminds me of Lappe and Riggnarros talking about what the most difficult bosses were in their opinion and some assholes who hasn't killed none of them questioning their view based on how it looked like on video.



    FYI I think there are several fights today that are way more complex than Vashj and it might be quite comparable to the average in ToT.
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-06-20 at 07:09 PM.

  7. #67
    Making sure people did their job well back then was the hard part, because the game was not very forgiving of screwups back then. Nef, for example, for me as a warlock was just aoe - dps Nef - aoe again when the adds come up - kill infernals if that class call happened to come up - more dots etc etc. Nothing crazy hard in and of itself, but with tank threat being what it was, adds could get loose sometimes and mess the healers up. Honestly I think Chromaggus took longer for my guild to down than Nef (and I hated him more because of crazy warlock threat issues without the nemesis bonus).
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Did you read it at all?
    If you played back in Sunwell you would know that Eredar Twins where killed in many different ways/positioning.
    Um, yes, many bosses in every single expansion are killed in different ways with different strategies.

    Still doesn't answer the question of how the length of a 5 year old EJ discussion thread relates to how difficult the boss being discussed was back then.

    Archimonde was a joke compared to M'uru, but his EJ thread is twice as long as M'uru's...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    You can't honestly tell me you've never had problems with phase transition from 2 to 3 espacially, people dying due to aggro reset, tank dmg, kiting (there where different classes viable and tried out), throwing the core due to los, no elemental despawns, right positioning of damage dealers at the spawns (also needed try and error to find the most valuable classes) when attempting the boss...?
    See? Now you're actually describing WHY you think the encounter was hard... was that so difficult? Sure, some of us may have had a great kiter, so we didn't consider kiting difficult... or had someone who was good at positioning people so there weren't los issues... But other groups may have...

    No need to be calling people names...

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalx View Post
    You just barely mentioned the most important aspect of the fight, which is the class "call-outs" as you call it.
    THAT was the main mechanic of the fight. Every class gave him a special ability or was affected by some effect, like paladins BoP'ing him, mages being polymorphed, warriors getting forced into berserker stance, druids forced into cat form, shamans would drop totems that buffed him, priests would damage instead of healing, hunters would have their weapon durability completely removed, rogues being shadowstapped to under him, warlocks summoning uncontrollable demons...

    it was complete chaos
    indeed tho I never got why hunters where the only class that got completely shafted with their class calls main weapon totaled if you dint have a swap bow macro.
    it like having a rogue call destroying both daggers and having to fist fight the rest of the battle -_-

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    You are the one making inane claims so it's your burden of proof.
    Ignoring my accusation that you didn't play back then is also telling.

    Pointing me to a thread were people discuss their Jinrokh strategy over 40 pages might be a start.

    EDIT: http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t12533-lady_vashj/
    You're confusing how to kill a boss with the actual mechanics said boss has, which was his entire point. Strategy means nothing in this context, but you seem to think it does.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Shootandkill View Post
    I don't know about you guys, but I am vastly better now than I was in Vanilla, and I was in the top 5 on pretty much every fight in our 40 mans.
    I was a worse gamer back in the 00s than I was back in the 90s. I am now a worse gamer in the 10s than I was back in the 00s. So no, I have actually been regressing ever since I was a teenager. The reason you are a better gamer now is probably because back in Classic you were taking your very first steps into competitive gaming. In stark contrast, I and many others had been playing video games competitively for over a decade already.

    Let's take myself as an example. I'm in my late 30s now, a much worse gamer than I have ever been, yet I can't point out a single truly challenging mechanic in either T14 or T15. I honestly had to deal with harder things playing arcade games back in the early 90s (don't laugh at this, as many arcade games were designed to be brutal). But yes, today I'm a father of three, with very little time to be a hardcore gamer, and even to an old fart like myself the first 6 bosses in ToT HC seem trivial from a mechanics' standpoint. I still don't even understand why Durumu's maze was nerfed into irrelevance, seeing as I honestly can't understand how anyone could unintentionally die to it. I'm not saying this to make fun of players who have genuinely died to the maze, I am just saying this to give you a bit of a perspective. In my mind the maze was just some purple stuff on the floor, with obvious openings showing you where to run. If this is how I sense things in my late 30s, then you can be sure there was a huge number of gamers back in classic who would have made easy work of the mechanics in today's raids as well, seeing as even back in my 'prime' I was far from world class in any sense.

    My point being, while I have no doubt you are a better gamer today than you were 6 years ago, you really shouldn't use yourself as the general example in this context. There are plenty of old farts such as myself who had already hit the level you are at today (and even much higher) as far back as in the mid 90s.

  13. #73
    It's not so much that Vanilla bosses have NO strat (I think most people are thinking of MC bosses when they say that) it's just that by modern terms the strats required are simple.

    A lot of these kinds of mechanics are archaic as well, for example the Onyxia cloak (a clumsy form of content gating, although as you mentioned it could be cheesed anyway) and the draconid's school resistance. Which is pretty crap because it gives you big advantages or disadvantages based on your class comp and which mobs are up this week. And the assumption that the MT is a Warrior haha.

    I'm sure that at the time when the fight was live, with the knowledge of the game, the addons, the online vids and strat guides that was available (ie a lot less) and the various aspects at play with eg, class balance and percent of players with prior raiding experience, something like Nefarian was difficult. But you transpose that fight onto today's situation and it'd be faceroll content.

    That's not a disparagement of Vanilla, it was great in its time. But you wouldn't want to bring back its mechanics, and you can't bring back its FEELING. Which I think is the thing old players really miss. It was new, it hadn't been done before, you hadn't been playing it for years... it's the same with any game. They lose that sexy gloss they have at the start.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 12:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Let's take myself as an example. I'm in my late 30s now, a much worse gamer than I have ever been, yet I can't point out a single truly challenging mechanic in either T14 or T15. I honestly had to deal with harder things playing arcade games back in the early 90s (don't laugh at this, as many arcade games were designed to be brutal). But yes, today I'm a father of three, with very little time to be a hardcore gamer, and even to an old fart like myself the first 6 bosses in ToT HC seem trivial from a mechanics' standpoint. I still don't even understand why Durumu's maze was nerfed into irrelevance, seeing as I honestly can't understand how anyone could unintentionally die to it.
    Well shit if you want to talk about old games, Mario 3 is about a thousand times harder than anything in WoW. And Zelda 2... *shudder*

    To be honest the individual mechanics in WoW have never been hard, WoW is more about teamwork and having the right gear. In some ways teamwork is a lot harder than any single player game you'll ever play because you can't control other people. Shit if WoW's raids had a single player mode they'd probably be beaten by half the playerbase in a week. Doesn't mean the game is EZYMODE, it's just a different kind of challenge.

    Hell, the biggest challenge in the game IMO is getting 9/24 other people online, geared, with a stable connection and ready to wipe 30 times on a boss 3+ nights a week every week.

    P.S. Durumu's maze is a bad example because as a mechanic it was back to front - easy to avoid, hard to see. The challenge of a mechanic shouldn't be trying to see the fucking thing because the graphics are too indistinct. Better example might be say, Alysrazor's whirlwinds. They were genuinely hard to dodge until you worked out hey, if I follow behind one I'll never get hit. I don't know why they nerfed those frankly :P
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    P.S. Durumu's maze is a bad example because...
    I sort of agree, but I'm not sure what else to use as an example from MOP. I've only played Classic and MOP, so can't really point out anything from previous expansions. The reason I tend to use Durumu's maze as an example is because when I asked the forums to name me a mechanic from MOP which they believed good Classic players would have a hard time dealing with, Durumu's maze was the mechanic pointed out to me. Mind you, they even went so far as to use the post-nerf version of the maze as their example, which surprised me even more. It felt more like the forums were just mindlessly bashing Classic players at that point more than anything.

    But yeah, I've just sort of been using Durumu as my point of comparison ever since.

    To be brutally honest, the hardest MOP mechanic I've had to deal with as a tank is the tank switching mechanic on Stone Guards. It's the only mechanic that kept me extremely focused long after MSV got to farm status. Every other encounter I have been able to just sort of do on 'autopilot' after I get it on farm, if that makes sense to you. Some encounters are even so boring that they got to auto-pilot status before we even got our first kill (I'm looking at you, Megaera).

    I'm not even sure which mechanic to put in 2nd place, and I've spent the last 5 minutes sitting here trying to think of one. The best I could come up with was HC Council in general. Not any one mechanic, but all put together. Beyond that my mind shoots blanks. (I point out that I'm only 6/13 HC, so there are things I have not yet experienced.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 01:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Hell, the biggest challenge in the game IMO is getting 9/24 other people online, geared, with a stable connection and ready to wipe 30 times on a boss 3+ nights a week every week.
    I couldn't agree more! Especially over the summer months.

  15. #75
    Many "hardcore" vanilla raiding guilds had to use the Thaddius Arrows add-on. I mean, come on now. Even nerfed Duru maze is harder than Thaddius charges.


    edit: Found this random vid on youtube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6RdeyUA_ho



    Look at that and tell me that even the people just raiding normals would have problems with those mechanics....
    Last edited by SamR; 2013-06-21 at 05:28 AM.

  16. #76
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    Wait wait wait.. Wasn't Ice Block a Wrath spell? I'm pretty certain that mages did NOT have Ice Block in vanilla.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Wait wait wait.. Wasn't Ice Block a Wrath spell? I'm pretty certain that mages did NOT have Ice Block in vanilla.
    They did, it was a talent in the frost tree back then iirc.
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    There also wasn't a dungeon journal, PTR for testing raids, or LFR to hold your hand through the encounters, so fights took a long time to learn and master
    You have to remember most fights were coordinated and soft-designed by and with the top guilds in the world; those guys had a ptr server they used to beta test all content back in the day.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    I sort of agree, but I'm not sure what else to use as an example from MOP.
    You want a MoP mechanic that would have been difficult for vanilla raiders to handle? Attenuation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6RdeyUA_ho

    Vanilla raiders were much much worse at "dancing" than raiders of today. I already posted a link to a Thaddius vid. Heigan was also a hardcore raiding boss in vanilla. And both of those are pretty basic movements even easier than Duru maze.

    The hardest "movement" fight in vanilla was 4 Horseman. And that was much less dancing and more following a timed path around the room.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    More mechanics doesn't mean they are harder or more complex.

    Many of the guilds that do heroics today couldn't complete 25 man raids (the upper ones, that is, t5 and above) at the time they were relevant.
    This is quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever heard. You take guilds doing heroics now and they would DESTROY things that were gear checks with simpler mechanics.

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