WW T16 2-piece changed :(

[Felade]

Beats the old 2pc.

[Adornus]

Beats the old 2pc.

Please tell me, how? The old one wasn't good, but my god this is awful. Now, if they change that 5% to a 50%, it will be worth it.

[Felade]

Please tell me, how? The old one wasn't good, but my god this is awful. Now, if they change that 5% to a 50%, it will be worth it.

The old one was going to cause Chi capping issues, especially with the new 4pc. At least this bonus won't make our rotation a complete PITA.

[Adornus]

The old one was going to cause Chi capping issues, especially with the new 4pc. At least this bonus won't make our rotation a complete PITA.

Possible Chi Capping Issues (I agree its dumb) vs. 0.0x% increase in damage.

You're seriously arguing that the old 2pc was worse?

EDIT: to put it in perspective... Let's just assume this 5% applied to ALL BoK and TP (and not just CB)

The 5% bonus damage would equate to a 1.4% increase in damage if ALL applied. However, only about 1 in every 10 used is a CB. You can do the math.

Using this log.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...2/?s=622&e=799

[Jayma]

maybe 5% on just BoK would be decent.

5% on combo breaker is basically nothing.

[Adornus]

maybe 5% on just BoK would be decent.

5% on combo breaker is basically nothing.

It'd still be awful. 5% on just BoK would equate to ~1%. Aren't the goals about 2%? I'd say it have to be around 10% on all BoK. Non Patchwerk style fights it will get worse as well (i.e. pick a fight where there are adds and not just a tank and spank)

[Felade]

Possible Chi Capping Issues (I agree its dumb) vs. 0.0x% increase in damage.

You're seriously arguing that the old 2pc was worse?

EDIT: to put it in perspective... Let's just assume this 5% applied to ALL BoK and TP (and not just CB)

The 5% bonus damage would equate to a 1.4% increase in damage if ALL applied. However, only about 1 in every 10 used is a CB. You can do the math.

Using this log.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...2/?s=622&e=799

Neither one would have amounted to much damage. Yeah, more Chi is more damage, but you'd lose as much as you gain from energy and chi capping issues. Adding more Chi to our sets means inversely scaling the amount of damage we can get from secondary stats.

Haste on our gear = more haste = more energy = more Chi, but the amount of Chi we can use is limited, and that limits how much DPS we can get from Haste.

Mastery is still (outside of what RoRo does) a poor stat for us, because it only affects a small window of our overall DPS. I recall trying Mastery builds at the start of 5.2, and the damage was just abysmal. The ability for Crit and Haste to provide value over 100% of the fight outweighs Mastery's increased value during TEB.

Crit is the only stat with no cap (or rather, we're in no danger of *reaching* the cap on).

The old 2pc lowers the limit on DPS we can get from Haste. Mastery is still trash. We'd end up dumping a large portion of our secondaries into Crit, which could end up fine, but we might still push that lower limit on Haste at high gear levels (we've been doing that all expansion, that's why they changed our Mastery in the first place). This is all assuming they push RoRo into obsolescence.

I agree, 5% more damage on combo breakers sounds pretty low. But at least it doesn't mess up our rotation and mess with our secondary stats.

[Frogged]

I have a feeling they will change the number from 5%, as they did with numerous set bonuses in this last PTR build. The important part is to look at the theory, not the specifics. The 2-piece is good in that regard.

Mastery is still (outside of what RoRo does) a poor stat for us, because it only affects a small window of our overall DPS. I recall trying Mastery builds at the start of 5.2, and the damage was just abysmal.

You were playing incorrectly, then. Mastery is not our worst stat without Rune, nor is Crit our only stat that doesn't have a cap. Running High Mastery, Medium Haste, Low Crit builds at the start of 5.2 was very successful. Mastery is only a bad stat if the player using it is doing so incorrectly. Crit is the training wheels stat for people still learning the class. Or for Rune!

[Felade]

You were playing incorrectly, then. Mastery is not our worst stat without Rune, nor is Crit our only stat that doesn't have a cap. Running High Mastery, Medium Haste, Low Crit builds at the start of 5.2 was very successful. Mastery is only a bad stat if the player using it is doing so incorrectly. Crit is the training wheels stat for people still learning the class. Or for Rune!

Mm, no I worked on it for a long time, both Mastery and Crit builds...there's a reason Mastery sims low without rune (Simming my gear without Rune, I get Crit>Mastery>Haste, but if I bring haste down to about 7000, I get Haste>Crit>Mastery).

Mastery gets better with the 4 piece (obviously) but if you're sitting at around 500ilvl, and aren't using TOT trinkets yet...

Even Mihir agrees:

1. No T15 4set bonus and no Rune of Re-Origination trinket: hit/exp caps > haste softcap > agility > crit > mastery > haste beyond softcap > hit beyond softcap

Red sockets: pure agility
Yellow sockets: agility + crit
Blue sockets: agility + hit

2. You got the T15 4set bonus and good gear, but no Rune of Re-Origination: hit/exp caps > haste softcap > agility > mastery >= crit > haste beyond softcap > hit beyond softcap

Red sockets: pure agility
Yellow sockets: agility + mastery
Blue sockets: agility + hit

[Frogged]

there's a reason Mastery sims low without rune

There is a reason Mastery sims low without rune. That reason is that the person who runs the Windwalker simcraft is human and makes mistakes, and Simcraft has always been broken for WW. My proof is my 20+ World Rank 1 parses, including one 2 days ago. Feel free to play however you want, but mathematically speaking, even without Rune Mastery is not our worst stat.

It's also worth pointing out that Mihir isn't agreeing with you that Mastery is our lowest stat outside Rune. He's valuing it equal to Crit. You're looking at no 4-set and no Rune. Not that Mihir is the Great Decider of Windwalkers anyway. He's also just human, and speaking about theories.

[Alhoon]

That came across like fanatic Christian trying to argue that evolution is just a theory. Sorry, but you can't refute mathematical simulations that have been proven correct with some anecdotal lucky streak. Without Rune, mastery is our worst stat, but it's not far behind.

[Callimonk]

Overall, our tier bonuses have been less than pleasurable. Current 2set? Possible UTI. Current 4set? ....it's okay.

Last tier? 2set was amazing. 4set was great pre-5.1, but arguably weaker with the change to Ascension.

I rather like this change.

[Felade]

He's valuing it equal to Crit. You're looking at no 4-set and no Rune.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Not that Mihir is the Great Decider of Windwalkers anyway.

He is one of the best geared Windwalkers in one of the best guilds in the world. He said Crit = Mastery w/4pc, so even with the 4pc, Mastery just pulls even (it still sims slightly below Crit).

Overall, our tier bonuses have been less than pleasurable. Current 2set? Possible UTI. Current 4set? ....it's okay.

UTI? I personally think 2pc t15 can go die in a fire, right along with Mistweaver Mastery. It is kind of fun when I'm tanking with my Windwalker set, though. Should have made it the Brewmaster 2pc...no wait the current BM 2pc is AMAZING. Nevermind!

Our current 4pc is amazing, really helps with RoRo RNG, in my opinion.

Last tier? 2set was amazing.

That's the FoF one? Always made me feel extra bad for sitting on FoF, but I really couldn't use it on CD. I could get *close*, but with the old Mastery, it was tough to dump all that Chi and energy in time to use FoF without clipping RSKs. Never actually got the 4pc, even after 6 heroic kills...

[Callimonk]

UTI? I personally think 2pc t15 can go die in a fire, right along with Mistweaver Mastery. It is kind of fun when I'm tanking with my Windwalker set, though. Should have made it the Brewmaster 2pc...no wait the current BM 2pc is AMAZING. Nevermind!

Our current 4pc is amazing, really helps with RoRo RNG, in my opinion.

I don't find our 4pc terribly thrilling, to be honest with you. With RoRO it's nice and definitely a bigger increase, but overall... hm. Last tier's 4p was much more amazing pre-5.1, at least in my opinion. And, I agree - the WW2p is better for my offspec than my mainspec at times... Though, I do feel a slight increase in movement-heavy fights when I'm picking up more orbs. For fights like Lei Shen, where I have to be stacked very tightly, I don't always get to use my orbs.

That's the FoF one? Always made me feel extra bad for sitting on FoF, but I really couldn't use it on CD. I could get *close*, but with the old Mastery, it was tough to dump all that Chi and energy in time to use FoF without clipping RSKs. Never actually got the 4pc, even after 6 heroic kills...

It was absolutely fantastic last tier. Granted, I'm finding more and more that I use FoF less and less now... Mostly because its timing is SO much more sensitive - you don't want to use it during a Rune proc, you don't want to use it when you're about to move, etc etc. In addition, last tier's 4p was pretty terrible after 5.1. When I simmed, I often found that higher secondaries were MUCH better than just having a few extra seconds on EB - mostly because our scaling with Haste is beyond simply gaining more e/s.

[Relix]

Yep. Another boring Tier bonus for both 2 and 4 piece Windwalker Tier 16. Yay!

[Wildspirit]

just tried it over on PTR, and the 2pc is shit as it is. Not even sure a bump in damage could make it good. As for the 4 piece I really don't see the point. As roro is still ou BIS trinket atm, you just don't want to spend your TEB for gaining a chi reduction on skills... Seems ridiculous.

Hope blizzard will find something more interesting for us cause as it is, playing WW is becoming more and more a pain than something I enjoy. Too much RNG cause of fucking roro... and without roro I'm not even sure our dps could be high enough to take a raid spot atm.

[Xifangbaihu]

Hope blizzard will find something more interesting for us cause as it is, playing WW is becoming more and more a pain than something I enjoy. Too much RNG cause of fucking roro... and without roro I'm not even sure our dps could be high enough to take a raid spot atm.

I am worried about this as well. I am hoping that they do indeed nerf or change roro so we can move on from it and give us something to compensate for the loss of that damage boost. It still makes me a sad panda to know we are dependent on a piece of gear for comparable damage versus our own skill and spec abilities.

[Taquito]

The solution is easy, give us the RoR proc on a passive tweaking it a bit. I think this will come in 6.0...

[Adornus]

I am worried about this as well. I am hoping that they do indeed nerf or change roro so we can move on from it and give us something to compensate for the loss of that damage boost. It still makes me a sad panda to know we are dependent on a piece of gear for comparable damage versus our own skill and spec abilities.

I don't have RoR, and it doesn't matter how many tokens I use on Lei Shen, it just wont drop. It does suck how much WW is completely balanced around that trinket, and without it you're kind've screwed.

Started BrMing LFR - I think a swap may be in my future as that trinket will never drop.