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  1. #241
    I'm really not too sure what they are really planning on changing at this point to make us competitive. Losing shielding on eternal flame (on top of other nurfs) is a significant nurf.

    In stack situations, it isn't as bad. Holy radiance refreshes shields and holy radiance tends to pull more weight in our overall healing (as well as ensuring that either hammer or prism hit full target cap). The eternal flame nurf is still massive, but a flat healing increase would probably solve the problem here.

    In spread situations though, we already had some of the lowest healing and this is an absolutely massive hit here. Without eternal flame refreshing shields, they are more and more likely to be wasted. That was about the only thing we had going for us in that situation. How do they want us to heal up a spread raid now? HR melee for holy power to eternal flame ranged? Holy/Divine Light ranged? Both are terrible ideas and result in a mana heavy rotation for low healing. After the daybreak change in 5.3 it is already a massive loss to holy shock a ranged by them self.

    We would really need to be given a spread raid heal, or have light of dawn heavily buffed. If they go about buffing light of dawn though, then no one takes eternal flame. On top of this, it really does skew the value of mastery depending on the fight. In stack fights it will still be great, in spread fights it will be pretty meh. We don't have another strong secondary so it may not be a problem, but if I have to start reforging every fight it will get pretty annoying.

  2. #242
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arayaa View Post
    We would really need to be given a spread raid heal, or have light of dawn heavily buffed. If they go about buffing light of dawn though, then no one takes eternal flame.
    I'm going to dispute that. I posted this on the forums, but my view is that LoD should be for both constant raid damage (whether burst or sustained), EF should be for immediate triage (if one person's going to die) and be a proactive heal to prepare for upcoming damage.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Elovan View Post
    Everyone's concerns here are legitimate and are definitely worth taking a look at, but it's unfair to claim Blizzard "doesn't know what to do with the spec" for releasing an early build that has experimental changes in an iterative design process. I guarantee your arguments and concerns will come off a lot better if you drop the dramatic doomsaying and focus feedback on 1) What works with the class 2) What doesn't work and 3) What changes could be made to fix that, rather than just repeating that Holy Paladins won't be brought to raids anymore (which would only be true for hardcore progression guilds anyways).
    Best post of the thread. A lot of complaining here but not enough solutions. Let's assume the mastery nerf to EF stays. What do we need to ensure we're still ok?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Best post of the thread. A lot of complaining here but not enough solutions. Let's assume the mastery nerf to EF stays. What do we need to ensure we're still ok?
    - 4 second HS baseline
    - 100% buff to LoD
    - Judgement: Acts like CS for holy. (grants 1 HP and gives mana regen chance)
    - Holy radiance cast time reduced by 0.5 seconds.
    - Infusion of light now makes both holy radiance and divine light instant cast.
    - GOAK is now a 3 minute Cooldown.
    - Devotion Aura now mitigates all types of damage.
    - Divine light base and coefficient increased by 75%

    Better to think about why we aren't giving 'solutions.' We've been weak since 5.3 and look at the current ptr changes. Can you honestly see us getting the required buffs to be both competitive and somewhat fun to play again?

    The problem isn't just that we're weak, it's that we feel slow and horrible to play, which affects the mindset even more. Blizzard have done nothing to address it, and have in fact been looking to make it worse. So ye, what can we do but complain and plan what class to play next patch?
    Last edited by oggyowl; 2013-06-24 at 08:25 AM.

  5. #245
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Best post of the thread. A lot of complaining here but not enough solutions. Let's assume the mastery nerf to EF stays. What do we need to ensure we're still ok?
    Aside from making EF simply baseline (which should happen with or without it giving IH to be honest), couple of ideas:

    1) Make Daybreak actually do something. Perhaps work it into a smart heal, encouraging more active HR and HS usage rather than just to get HP.

    2) Increase the target cap of LoD as well as buffing healing.

    3) Quality of Life: Increased AoE radius on Holy Radiance and Daybreak up to 15 yards from 10 yards (too much can be a bad thing i.e. twin consorts).

    4) Selfless Healer could use some sprucing up still. Perhaps some QoL on Judgment. Maybe a significant damage increase? Also perhaps allow free cast Holy Radiances, and allow the Flash/Divine Light to always generate Holy Power (instead of just on the Beacon target).

    5) Better tier bonuses to make Holy more competitive with other specs.


    [edit]

    I'll second two of Oggyowl's posts:

    * Devotion Aura mitigates all types of damage for Holy
    * Guardian of Ancient Kings reworked into a 3 minute cooldown

  6. #246
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    And fix our horrible set bonuses!

  7. #247
    I am going to give a crit oriented build a try today during testing, assuming the bosses aren't broken to oblivion I will let you guys know how it goes, have done a lot of napkin math on it and doesn't seem bad with the 2 piece if my math is correct. (Only relevance being the nerf to E-flame, obviously.)

  8. #248
    Whats the deal with Holy Shield being available to all specs currently on the ptr? Is it just a bug?

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    - 4 second HS baseline
    - 100% buff to LoD
    - Judgement: Acts like CS for holy. (grants 1 HP and gives mana regen chance)
    - Holy radiance cast time reduced by 0.5 seconds.
    - Infusion of light now makes both holy radiance and divine light instant cast.
    - GOAK is now a 3 minute Cooldown.
    - Devotion Aura now mitigates all types of damage.
    - Divine light base and coefficient increased by 75%

    Better to think about why we aren't giving 'solutions.' We've been weak since 5.3 and look at the current ptr changes. Can you honestly see us getting the required buffs to be both competitive and somewhat fun to play again?

    The problem isn't just that we're weak, it's that we feel slow and horrible to play, which affects the mindset even more. Blizzard have done nothing to address it, and have in fact been looking to make it worse. So ye, what can we do but complain and plan what class to play next patch?
    -I agree with HS
    -LoD, but that should be as well increased to 40 Yards in range; and as Voidspark wrote: increase the target cap (just as done with various CD´s ), but maby enot to 15 (to powerful) , but in this case 10.
    -HR I´d rather see a Change to range to 15 Yards instead of a cast time redcution.
    -Judgement doesn´t have to give mana back. With a 4 sec CD on HS you will literally never get to cast a Judgement ever, considering the other spells get buffed too. Instead of having Judgement get back into a Toolbox (i hated it) I ´d like to see Holy Lights give a Chance for Holy Power, as Monks have it with Soothing Mist.
    -GoAK on 3 Minute CD and HS not consming stacks as a single spell if it ´s casted after HR (as GC considers it as a aoe heal in that case aynway)
    -a DL increase you suggest is to massive, maybe 30%


    Furthermore I´d like talents/spells which can be spec specific changed for the various specs as Devotion Aura for example. Thinking of:
    -Sacred Shield going back the the 5.2 Version, but being effected by crit adn Mastery and Transfer via Beacon.
    -SH could be actually changed to our Version of heal by dps´ing with Judgement. Problem with this is, that it should only Transfer like 50% of it´´ s damage to healing, so it isn´t used instead of actually healing. Somethign I dislike majhorly about disc healing atm
    --rework SoE: for a single target spell it
    a) doesn´t heal enough
    b) has a too Long CD
    either make the CD shorter, like 30 seconds
    or make it as the other talenst an aoe Talent. The Hammer falls slowly at the start healing one target and splits after every 3 seconds into 2 hammers healing different Targets ( on a 3 sec timer you don´t get to many hammers ).

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpyhooves View Post
    Whats the deal with Holy Shield being available to all specs currently on the ptr? Is it just a bug?

    I noticed this too.

  11. #251
    High Overlord cakin's Avatar
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    1. Buff Divine Light: The fact that in my mind this should be the strongest, biggest heal in the game and its not even close infuriates me.
    2. I like Med's idea of holy light having a chance to build holy power. We'd still be able to consistently build HoPo like we have but it would be fun to get random procs. Maybe off of crits. Would make us atleast think twice about reforging.
    3. Buff LoD: It's so bad right now. I don't even care if they leave it at 5 targets, its got to heal more.
    4. GoAK: 3 min CD or something. It's pretty good right now but sometimes it just feels weird to use or I don't use it all up.
    5. HR: If they buff LoD wouldn't matter as much to me if they kept it the same. If they do nothing with LoD they have to increase the radius.
    6. Divine Favor: Would love to see this as a 2 min CD.
    7. Devotion Aura: Something please. I don't care what just something.

    While I loved 4 second holy shocks I don't think it needs to be baseline. If other things were fixed I don't feel like we would need it that much.
    Last edited by cakin; 2013-06-24 at 12:58 PM. Reason: added

  12. #252
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    I don't know about everyone else, but I like consistency over RNG; so I(and I am sure many others) really wouldn't be keen on this idea of holy light having a "chance" to give holy power. It is a weak heal that is pretty much non-existent in 25m. Giving it a chance to proc HP would really not change that. I'll cast HR for the guaranteed HP instead. And it is not comparable to soothing mist giving a "chance" because any monk who knows their stuff is spam-tapping soothing mist when they use it to get a ton of Chi, they don't just sit and let the channel go.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-06-24 at 01:08 PM.

  13. #253
    Sacred Shield (New): Now baseline for all specs - Holy: You place a shield on the target which triggers every 6 seconds, and is also infused by your Beacon of Light, turning any over healing done on the target via Beacon of Light into bonus absorption on the next trigger.

    Selfless Healer: Holy: Your judgements reduce the cast time of your Flash of Light, Divine Light and Holy Radiance by 35% and mana cost by 30%, stacking up to three times. Also causes judgement to now generate one Holy Power.

    Eternal Flame: Initial heal reduced by 20%, In addition Holy Power no longer effects the heal strength of the heal over time component, instead it lasts 10/20/30 seconds based on the amount of Holy Power and does the current maximum healing given by 3 Holy Power on every varient.
    Illuminated healing (Mastery): Now triggers on Eternal flame's heal over time component at a 50% rate

    Holy Shock: Cooldown now reduced by Haste down to a minimum of 4 seconds.

    Light of Dawn - Redesigned: Now effects 6 targets in 10 man, 10 targets in 25 man. Also converts up to 50% of the healed amount into shielding based on the amount of overhealing done. Reduced global cooldown to 0.5 seconds.

    Sanctified Wrath: Holy: No longer reduces your Holy Shock cooldown by half, instead reduces all cast times by 50% and causes you to gain the Tower of Radiance effect regardless of the target you use it on.

    Tower of Radiance: Now has a 15% chance to grant 1 Holy Power when the target of your Beacon of Light is healed by the cloned Holy Light effect.


    Just some fairly new changes I thought about to be a bit more unique, they might be a bit too easy mode with the focus on over healing shields but it'd be a unique way to add some shields to our healing and have us as a lesser version of a Disc Priest.

  14. #254
    hah my guild already asked me to dust off my ret skills...

    Can we not have major play-style changes mid expac??

    Edit:

    Xs, I really like those ideas lol sounds fun
    Last edited by Klasscs; 2013-06-24 at 01:14 PM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Sacred Shield (New): Now baseline for all specs - Holy: You place a shield on the target which triggers every 6 seconds, and is also infused by your Beacon of Light, turning any over healing done on the target via Beacon of Light into bonus absorption on the next trigger.

    Selfless Healer: Holy: Your judgements reduce the cast time of your Flash of Light, Divine Light and Holy Radiance by 35% and mana cost by 30%, stacking up to three times. Also causes judgement to now generate one Holy Power.

    Eternal Flame: Initial heal reduced by 20%, In addition Holy Power no longer effects the heal strength of the heal over time component, instead it lasts 10/20/30 seconds based on the amount of Holy Power and does the current maximum healing given by 3 Holy Power on every varient.
    Illuminated healing (Mastery): Now triggers on Eternal flame's heal over time component at a 50% rate

    Holy Shock: Cooldown now reduced by Haste down to a minimum of 4 seconds.

    Light of Dawn - Redesigned: Now effects 6 targets in 10 man, 10 targets in 25 man. Also converts up to 50% of the healed amount into shielding based on the amount of overhealing done. Reduced global cooldown to 0.5 seconds.

    Sanctified Wrath: Holy: No longer reduces your Holy Shock cooldown by half, instead reduces all cast times by 50% and causes you to gain the Tower of Radiance effect regardless of the target you use it on.

    Tower of Radiance: Now has a 15% chance to grant 1 Holy Power when the target of your Beacon of Light is healed by the cloned Holy Light effect.


    Just some fairly new changes I thought about to be a bit more unique, they might be a bit too easy mode with the focus on over healing shields but it'd be a unique way to add some shields to our healing and have us as a lesser version of a Disc Priest.
    Please don't toss too good ideas out loud. Devs might see these but can't act because it would be copying.

  16. #256
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    1) Make Daybreak actually do something. Perhaps work it into a smart heal, encouraging more active HR and HS usage rather than just to get HP.
    I also was thinking they could do something with daybreak. Maybe adding a HoT component to it(HoT would work with IH). But I haven't really thought of much past that. Just do something so it doesn't mostly overheal like it does now.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Illuminated healing (Mastery): Now triggers on Eternal flame's heal over time component at a 50% rate
    Sounds nice, but the Problem is that GC doesn´consider the EF hot is too strong only, but he dislikes the mastery buff being reapplied by the hot. So it doesnt matetr that much if you reduced it to 50% or 10%, it´s either removed at all or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Sanctified Wrath: Holy: No longer reduces your Holy Shock cooldown by half, instead reduces all cast times by 50% and causes you to gain the Tower of Radiance effect regardless of the target you use it on.

    .
    SancWrath that way would be so ueber-powerful it´s beyond good. No one would ever take DP or HA ever again. you get a mini BL and a mini HA in one+ Wings in that case then I assume. That´s too strong.
    I´d like to see SancWrath as it is now be baseline for a Holy AW and have SancWrath be reworked


    I like the rest though; especially HS CD lowered to 4secs not baseline but by Haste

  18. #258
    High Overlord cakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Please don't toss too good ideas out loud. Devs might see these but can't act because it would be copying.
    I actually think that is the way you combat the holy shock baseline. I like the idea of being able to lower it if you want through haste but not a necessity.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Klasscs View Post
    hah my guild already asked me to dust off my ret skills...

    Can we not have major play-style changes mid expac??

    Edit:

    Xs, I really like those ideas lol sounds fun
    Tell your guild to not make judgments so fast. I will eat my pants if holy pala is bottom of the charts in 5.4. It has been a long time since we were really bad.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I also was thinking they could do something with daybreak. Maybe adding a HoT component to it(HoT would work with IH). But I haven't really thought of much past that. Just do something so it doesn't mostly overheal like it does now.
    So this time make Daybreak hot and not HR? hm, a bit going round in circles

    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I don't know about everyone else, but I like consistency over RNG; so I(and I am sure many others) really wouldn't be keen on this idea of holy light having a "chance" to give holy power. It is a weak heal that is pretty much non-existent in 25m. Giving it a chance to proc HP would really not change that. I'll cast HR for the guaranteed HP instead. And it is not comparable to soothing mist giving a "chance" because any monk who knows their stuff is spam-tapping soothing mist when they use it to get a ton of Chi, they don't just sit and let the channel go.
    Hm, fair enough, your concerns about RNG, but giving a 100% HP ability is probably to powerful to ever go live. Which other spells currently available could therefore giev HP or the Chance for HP? HS and HR and ToR do grant HP already. Remaining spells are EF, SS, FoL, DL, HP-LH-SoE-Daybreak. Daybreak granting HP after having casted HR anyway: sounds wrong. T6 talents combined with HP?-to Long CD. EF-Chance for HP?-not gonna happen. Leaves us with FoL and/or DL and a psossible Chance for HP. Numbers for them don´t look that good either in 25, bit more maybe ijn 10.
    So what do you suggest? or no new HP granting ability at all? I don´t wanna Judge for HP aka do damage without healing for HP, a broken mechnaic imo. Don´t dps to enhance your healing.
    The best of it would be, if at all then, a 50% Chance on Daybreak to mgrant a HP. But whats gonna happen then? Buffed LoD, HR->Daybreak synergy. Well path is unveiled.

    PS: and yes, MW tab-spamming SoM isn´t really brand new Information and doesn´t Change anything about the Chi creation by that spell. Your chances remain the same, if you spam one or tab spam

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