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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by luc54 View Post
    While disc does absorb lot of the healing. Even then holy paladin spread aoe is pathetic. Just go look at mostly raw hps fight like tortos 25hc. You can see how bad paladins are in such fights. Shaman are getting buffed so they are gonna be closer to level of other healers. On the other hand you will see holy paladin numbers plummet down even further. You make it sound like holy paladin aoe hps would be amazing without disc priest, which it deffinetely isn't.
    Ah, finally, some actual insight on the issue of the matter! Your argument is that Paladin's AoE suffers primarily in a spread-out environment? That's rather interesting, and I can see why it might make spells like EF attractive, even in a 25-man fight (Looking at Tortos, both disc and holy paladins are performing pretty awfully).

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium View Post
    Ah, finally, some actual insight on the issue of the matter! Your argument is that Paladin's AoE suffers primarily in a spread-out environment? That's rather interesting, and I can see why it might make spells like EF attractive, even in a 25-man fight (Looking at Tortos, both disc and holy paladins are performing pretty awfully).
    Paladin AoE sucks at both spread and stacked up encounters when compared to other classes.

  3. #1003
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    It isn't just spread aoe, even on stacked aoe our actual healing output is lackluster compared to other healers. Our mastery is the only thing that makes our healing look decent in both scenarios. You seem to be unaware of why we use EF over LoD. It isn't for the healing, it is because EF is the most efficient way to keep our mastery rolling on the raid. If you look at fights like Megaera the top paladins are still EF blanketing over LoD. LoD just heals for too little and doesn't have as much synergy with our mastery as EF does. You keep saying EF is the problem, but no it really isn't. Our mastery is the problem.

    As I said earlier, our actual heals get snipped by the other healers who have superior toolkits. That is why we rely so heavily on mastery and overhealing to stack it up.

    You also, Diatenium, obviously do know why paladins and disc priests do poorly on heroic Tortos compared to other healers. It has nothing to do with it being spread.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-13 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #1004
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium View Post
    You're putting words in my mouth, I said nothing of holy paladin's performance in terms of HPS, rather I challenged Aladya's belief that LoD should behave exactly like Mushrooms. It shouldn't even be in question that I want holy paladins to perform well, but I'd rather we do it on our terms, rather than pretend to be another class.
    Well now you're putting words in someone elses mouth, Aladya is merely comparing the power of the "finishers" that druids and monks have. They did in no way say they wanted LoD to behave exactly like mushrooms, they merely stated that is how a finisher should work in terms of power. A mushroom can get a monumental amount of healing whereas LoD which either has an 12 second ramp up time or a 6 second ramp up time with a 63k mana cost actually heals for a far less amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium View Post
    I didn't even need to research the class at all, when the core of contention is that Aladya is making an "Apples-to-Oranges" comparison, I merely did so to inform myself about what this individual was using as an example and illustrate how they are different and why.
    Also realistically the discussions going on here to be honest involve the viability of holy paladins at a heroic raiding level and to some extent normals. These are the only things that matter thus it is looking at how viable we are going to be when it comes down to it in SoO, which when you actually look at holy paladin performance during testing, its pretty poor. You are using 5.3 patch information to confirm your arguments when they don't apply anymore since one of the main mechanics to that healing is now gone.
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-07-13 at 02:37 PM.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Paladin AoE sucks at both spread and stacked up encounters when compared to other classes.
    Erm... Okay, could you articulate your argument? The last chap provided a much clearer picture of his criticism, and provided examples.

    As for the subject of spread-out healing, I'm not sure what can be done to resolve this matter. I think there's some merit to be had about increasing the range of our aoe heals (Primarily Holy Radiance), but that raises the issue of it potentially being too effective (IE, if it were 40 yards, ostensibly hitting all players, then there's no risk of misuse and subsequently a higher risk of players spamming it into oblivion), otherwise I think it's not entirely unfair to have some fights where a certain class will under-perform--Don't get misinterpret me, I agree that the performance of Holy Paladins in 25-mans is more an overall issue and it's one I want to resolve just as much as anyone else here (though that bounces right back to the topic of healer ecology in a more "Ideal" setting).

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    It isn't just spread aoe, even on stacked aoe our actual healing output is lackluster compared to other healers. Our mastery is the only thing that makes our healing look decent in both scenarios. You seem to be unaware of why we use EF over LoD. It isn't for the healing, it is because EF is the most efficient way to keep our mastery rolling on the raid. If you look at fights like Megaera the top paladins are still EF blanketing over LoD. LoD just heals for too little and doesn't have as much synergy with our mastery as EF does. You keep saying EF is the problem, but no it really isn't. Our mastery is the problem.

    As I said earlier, our actual heals get snipped by the other healers who have superior toolkits. That is why we rely so heavily on mastery and overhealing to stack it up.

    You also, Diatenium, obviously do know why paladins and disc priests do poorly on heroic Tortos compared to other healers. It has nothing to do with it being spread.
    I understand exactly why EF was so powerful, the spell extends the duration of our mastery shields to 45 seconds--three times the duration of any other rolling absorb effect out there. This, however, loops back to the argument that you're comparing LoD to EF which isn't what the developers intended; of course LoD and Holy Radiance is going to look weak when you can spend a minuet blanketing the raid in bubbles before they're all hit with substantial aoe damage, but that only illustrates that--as a talent--EF was too powerful, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Well now you're putting words in someone elses mouth, Aladya is merely comparing the power of the "finishers" that druids and monks have. They did in no way say they wanted LoD to behave exactly like mushrooms, they merely stated that is how a finisher should work in terms of power. A mushroom can get a monumental amount of healing whereas LoD which either has an 12 second ramp up time or a 6 second ramp up time with a 63k mana cost actually heals for a far less amount.
    Ah... Re-reading his stuff, it's fair to assume that I might have misinterpreted his argument. I still believe the comparison between LoD and Mushroom isn't quite right... Urgh, WoWhead's PTR talent calculator won't show me druids, I can't remember if they changed druids to only allow the use of one mushroom or still 3. Moreover, are we comparing it to laying down three mushrooms and immediately detonating them or laying them down, banking them for a bit as they gain bonus healing, and then firing them? If it's the former case, then I agree that it shouldn't be able to perform better than LoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Also realistically the discussions going on here to be honest involve the viability of holy paladins at a heroic raiding level and to some extent normals. These are the only things that matter thus it is looking at how viable we are going to be when it comes down to it in SoO, which when you actually look at holy paladin performance during testing, its pretty poor. You are using 5.3 patch information to confirm your arguments when they don't apply anymore since one of the main mechanics to that healing is now gone.
    This is generally why I avoid the topic of overall raid performance, and yet it sadly seemed to have been pushed in that direction. There's some discussion to be had about performance in the purest sense, but I'm much more interested in the discussion of mechanics and how things operate in proportion to eachother.

    Urgh, this is exhausting, I'm going to need to take a break.
    Last edited by Diatenium; 2013-07-13 at 02:55 PM.

  6. #1006
    Gonna repeat what others said during reglitchgate. There's no point derailing the discussion by conversing with people who aren't aware of our issues. Just don't reply to him amd keep it constructive.

  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Gonna repeat what others said during reglitchgate. There's no point derailing the discussion by conversing with people who aren't aware of our issues. Just don't reply to him amd keep it constructive.
    Indeed, when you have to explain basic MoP Hpaladin issues (eg. spread out healing, hp generation...) that anyone who actually plays the class already knows you're just wasting your time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium
    I think there's some merit to be had about increasing the range of our aoe heals (Primarily Holy Radiance), but that raises the issue of it potentially being too effective (IE, if it were 40 yards, ostensibly hitting all players, then there's no risk of misuse and subsequently a higher risk of players spamming it into oblivion)
    This is a perfect example of just how out of the game you currently are. We already spam HR just for the HP, and have for quite a while. Either learn how healing works now or just leave the thread, because you aren't helping anyone or contributing to a good discussion

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium View Post
    Erm... Okay, could you articulate your argument? The last chap provided a much clearer picture of his criticism, and provided examples.
    Compare HPS between Megaera rampages vs Monks/Priests?
    Compare HPS on Iron Qon when he's in his last phase vs Monks/Priests?

    Paladin AoE is pretty bad.

  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Gonna repeat what others said during reglitchgate. There's no point derailing the discussion by conversing with people who aren't aware of our issues. Just don't reply to him amd keep it constructive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xern View Post
    Indeed, when you have to explain basic MoP Hpaladin issues (eg. spread out healing, hp generation...) that anyone who actually plays the class already knows you're just wasting your time.

    This is a perfect example of just how out of the game you currently are. We already spam HR just for the HP, and have for quite a while. Either learn how healing works now or just leave the thread, because you aren't helping anyone or contributing to a good discussion
    A right Ad Hominem-palooza here!

    ...Look, friend, buddy, I'm being genuine here when I'm saying I'm not trying to rouse a conflict for conflict's sake. You're not talking to a developer, you're talking to another player who's just as passionate about the game as you are, the entire purpose of a forum is that it's a place to exchange ideas and views with others, I can't believe I have to explain this. If you think I'm wrong, patiently articulate your disagreement and maybe we can learn something from the dialogue, there's no rush.

    I hate derailing the discussion like this, but I'm heading off for a bit anyways, take care!
    Last edited by Diatenium; 2013-07-13 at 03:08 PM.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium View Post
    A right Ad Hominem-palooza here!

    ...Look, friend, buddy, I'm being genuine here when I'm saying I'm not trying to rouse a conflict for conflict's sake. You're not talking to a developer, you're talking to another player who's just as passionate about the game as you are, the entire purpose of a forum is that it's a place to exchange ideas and views with others, I can't believe I have to explain this. If you think I'm wrong, patiently articulate your disagreement and maybe we can learn something from the dialogue, there's no rush.

    I hate derailing the discussion like this, but I'm heading off for a bit anyways, take care!
    There are multiple threads where you can learn how paladin works, and how to play one. This isn't one of them.

  11. #1011
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xern View Post
    Indeed, when you have to explain basic MoP Hpaladin issues (eg. spread out healing, hp generation...)
    I am going to explain this again though. Spread out healing isn't our only issue. Stacked healing is not much better.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-13 at 03:26 PM.

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Paladin AoE sucks at both spread and stacked up encounters when compared to other classes.
    Agreed.

    1. Stacked AoE is a ridiculous healing niche. The healers that perform well at spread AoE healing are just as strong at stacked AoE (often stronger) but the reverse is not true.

    2. Paladins aren't even that strong at stacked AoE. If you're going to force stacked AoE as a healing niche then it needs to be stronger than the other healers. True perhaps for shamans but not for paladins.

    Something to muse for 6.0 rather than now, but buffing the range of HR, LoD and HP could at least make us more proficient at spread healing.

  13. #1013
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diatenium View Post
    As I had feared, I missed a fair amount regarding how MW monks operate in terms of their AoE abilities. I don't have an intimate understanding of how they operate and when the two abilities were brought up (Specifically, REM and Uplift), I researched those abilities almost exclusively, missing the numerous talents that also offer AoE healing as well as forgetting how MW handles SCK. The mistake was in my claim that these were their exclusive sources of AoE healing, my apologies.
    This is why the posters are getting so impatient with you Diatenium, you basically are showing you don't know how any of the healing classes work. Monks don't just have two buttons that are ReM and Uplift.

    This ain't Cata anymore, where HR actually did healing. Nor does it help your case when you even mention Daybreak at all. We can sit down and go through every ability every heal class and what it does or doesn't do, but that is off topic from this thread. You are driving this thread off topic. Nor is this Cataclysm, you cited a MOP fight (Tortos) that doesn't even matter, if you actually raided you would understand why.

    I, too, hate that it is resorting to "ad hominem" and simply putting you on ignore since I used to raid with you, but that seems to be what it is slowly coming down to because you are derailing this thread. If I didn't know you beforehand, I would not have responded and you'd be on ignore, but I figured I'd do this as a favor.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-07-13 at 03:33 PM.

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I am going to explain this again though. Spread out healing isn't our only issue. Stacked healing is not much better.
    Yeah, I didn't bother listing more than 2 since they are somewhat clear to anyone who has stepped into ToT. Our stacked healing is pretty awful aswell. Just this week mine and Pacer's average HR heal on raden was around 210k. I think we both know how much a PoH will do regardless of being stacked or not, which is one of the points someone brought up (Other classes have better healing stacked and spread).
    We are just left with a mediocre AoE heal that we cast even if everyone is spread just to get HP.
    Last edited by Xern; 2013-07-13 at 04:06 PM.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I am going to explain this again though. Spread out healing isn't our only issue. Stacked healing is not much better.
    In 10m our stacked healing is perfectly fine even with HR hitting like a tissue. In 25m on the other hand, holy paladins were perfectly competable until they did the buff of tranq, revival, divine hymn, and soon to be healing tide totem. Spread aoe healing can be difficult at times, but we aren't hurting as much as you think we are. The main problem is with the changes to illuminated healing with ef, that causes us to need throughput somewhere else (justified change talent balance wise, but will change holy paladins significantly). The raw buff to some of our spells seems to be blizzards solution to the nurf. On the other hand, I feel that the changes to guardian are supposed to be the changes that help compete with the newly designed 25m aoe cd's

  16. #1016
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xern View Post
    Just this week mine and Pacer's average HR heal on raden was around 210k. I think we both know how much a PoH will do regardless of being stacked or not, which is one of the points someone brought up (Other classes have better healing stacked and spread). We are just left with a mediocre AoE heal that we cast even if everyone is spread just to get HP.
    The heal itself is terrible, but with the loss of EF and LoD not being buffed, basically we have nothing to spend the HP on that's good. LoD needs way more than that pitiful 8% buff it got.

    To continue, we don't want every paladin playing like a Resto druid, and honestly neither should you paladins. EF shouldn't be mandatory.
    Here's the problem. Right now out of the 5 non-druid heal specs, 3 have resto-like play. Resto druids getting Genesis, in fact, makes monks even closer to druids. That leaves us and Disc. Right now with EF not stacking IH and not becoming baseline, they seem to want to rob our absorbs (making us less of a Disc playstyle?)

    So what the fuck are we supposed to be, because Blizzard even mentioned they want to emphasize HoTs in SoO (given the amount of NPC's we have to heal, that fact is obvious), but now they want to take away/neuter any HoTs we have. Looks like a triple whammy.

    And +8% to Light of Dawn and -25% to Eternal Flame (given changes since 5.3) isn't going to do shit.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-07-13 at 04:27 PM.

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post

    First of all Monks have Chi Torpedo, Chi Burst and SCK. All of them are instant on demand aoe.
    Just to point this out, none of them are instants. Chi burst has an actual cast time and you need to be behind the raid to use it correctly, SCK is a channeled ability, I'll give you Chi Torpedo that has a travel animation you can abuse anyway during the GCD.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Just to point this out, none of them are instants. Chi burst has an actual cast time and you need to be behind the raid to use it correctly, SCK is a channeled ability, I'll give you Chi Torpedo that has a travel animation you can abuse anyway during the GCD.
    I wrote instant on demand aoe not instant cast :P. Renewing Mist for example while being instant cast is not instant on demand aoe is it

  19. #1019
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Just to point this out, none of them are instants. Chi burst has an actual cast time and you need to be behind the raid to use it correctly, SCK is a channeled ability, I'll give you Chi Torpedo that has a travel animation you can abuse anyway during the GCD.
    A spell with a cast time. You realize our main aoe is HR with a slow cast time.


    In other news: Reglitch has stopped posting in this thread it seems but he has decided to start messaging people instead.

  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    A spell with a cast time. You realize our main aoe is HR with a slow cast time.


    In other news: Reglitch has stopped posting in this thread it seems but he has decided to start messaging people instead.
    rofl, other people too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch
    "There are multiple threads where you can learn how paladin works"
    i take it you havent found them yet

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