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  1. #1021
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    rofl, other people too?
    Yes, pretty sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-50...?s=4890&e=5262

    yeah man that stacked healing is just terrible i feel u

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by Venism View Post
    In 10m our stacked healing is perfectly fine even with HR hitting like a tissue. In 25m on the other hand, holy paladins were perfectly competable until they did the buff of tranq, revival, divine hymn, and soon to be healing tide totem. Spread aoe healing can be difficult at times, but we aren't hurting as much as you think we are. The main problem is with the changes to illuminated healing with ef, that causes us to need throughput somewhere else (justified change talent balance wise, but will change holy paladins significantly). The raw buff to some of our spells seems to be blizzards solution to the nurf. On the other hand, I feel that the changes to guardian are supposed to be the changes that help compete with the newly designed 25m aoe cd's
    Right now [in 10] we can compete on farm with monks and shamans (taking meg as an example) by preemptively shielding everybody and keeping those shields up until the damage phase comes. If we do it the other way we'll still be raped. And it's still clunky as it's a fuckton of HR when no damage is happening. Priests, no chance. I hate it, but without the ef change we'd still be 'viable'.
    Last edited by oggyowl; 2013-07-13 at 06:54 PM.

  3. #1023
    High Overlord cakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    rofl, other people too?
    But he was my favorite...

  4. #1024
    First time poster in this thread and paladin forum for that matter lol

    Firstly I would like to ask for a more civilized approach when responding to other users, there's no reason to answer in an aggressive manner so if you disagree with another user you either present your view or you don't post at all.

    On to the main argument, I've been following this thread for quite a while and there has been some interesting discussion. Personally I'm not very experienced with 5.3 holy paladins as I've only got a blue geared alt running the occasional lfr (and rocking :P), so my opinions may be wide off the mark. Paladins are in a very awkward position in terms of healing because it seems that whilst you can "perform well", it's all thanks to the ludicrous amounts of overhealing and IH shields being placed. The EF nerf to the HoT portion not being able to roll IH on the player is a substantial nerf and it certainly does go about the issue, however this raises other issues which may or may not be related solely to holy paladins. It seems like you're forced to practice this style of healing because your genuine heals just get sniped by smart heals and absorbs.

    If my memory serves me correctly, I don't recall these passive heals playing such a big role back at the start of Cata and the WotLK, when you didn't have say HR as a spammable ability (it had like a 30 sec cd, good fun lol) and your main healing abilities were actual single target spells like holy shock and divine light. This is in my opinion the main culprit for the downfall of resto druids, shamans and now holy paladins. This has been mentioned by other users but as much as we pick about on it the truth is it would require more than 1 patch to fix and it certainly wouldn't be 1-2 months before the next raiding tier so if we could put it in light terms, holy paladins need "a temporary fix" so they can be viable for next tier. However, this makes me raise some questions: With the EF nerf which was literally the reason why you "performed well" (I used quotation marks because I find HPS to be an awkward measure of a healer's potential),

    1. How will you be spending your holy power? Will you still be using EF?

    I question this because from what I can gather, you basically use EF because LoD's healing is subpar and because EF had the ability to keep IH rolling on players. With the nerf, it just seems like you have no "rewarding" ability on to which you can spend your holy power, and I completely agree with the user that mentioned that you should feel that spending your 3 holy powers should be special in the sense of having a powerful heal. Seeming as they buffed 25 man healing rain to only apply diminishing returns after 14 players, could LoD not have a similar buff. I mention this without considering the state of holy in 10 man but I would assume LoD to be stronger in 10 simply because you'll be healing 60% of the raid with it whereas in 25 man you're only healing 24% of the raid.

    2. A couple of users mentioned a reduced cd on holy shock, or the need to have quicker and cheaper holy power generation. With the current 5.4 notes what would this imply?

    Obviously this question once again touches on the matter of your holy power spenders being garbage, but how would faster holy power gen help in this regard. This brings me to the subject of using CS to generate holy power. The first thing it reminds me of is mistweavers using jab to generate chi, which is personally something I enjoy but often you're not allowed to do this as paladins during encounters simply because you're classified as a "ranged healer" and therefore you are targeted by ranged abilities. If monks are exclusively a melee class and therefore the healing spec is classified as melee for all purposes, why can't holy paladins also be classified as melee? Somebody will probably have better insight on that topic but from my knowledge it makes no sense.

    As the last suggestion, and as much as I dislike touching the EF subject partly because I've grown tired of absorbs, I think EF's nerf should be completely reverted so that the HoT portion still grants IH. I still recall how paladins were powerful for progression this tier, and reverting EF would probably make them mandatory for next tier but I personally don't see a fix that would not imply a complete rework of the whole heal paradigm.

    As I've mentioned, a healer's potential shouldn't simply be judged by their HPS, having the right cooldowns and abilities also plays a big part. Having a healer that can switch between healing and dpsing with very little to sacrifice provides a massive benefit to the raid composition in my opinion. Just as an example, my guild killed Lei shen hc for the first time with an average ilvl of around 529, and only some dpsers had the legendary meta gem. The phase 1 dps check was high, but I believe that having me and a disc priest full on dpsing was a deciding factor for pushing that requirement. As for the 2 holy paladins that were present in that kill, they weren't asked to denounce the boss, their role was to cover healing (which in all fairness isn't very high during that phase) because there's nothing else they could offer. I'm not saying you have no utility, because your Hand toolkit (although HoSac could have its shared damage component removed) and DA are already decent enough to bring to a raid, but perhaps as a future note Blizzard could consider giving every healer the ability to deal damage without a tremendous loss of mana / healing throughput.

  5. #1025
    Imo, LoD needs to be changed. I'd personally like something along the lines of; once you have spent 10(maybe a bit high?) HP, LoD can be used and heals the raid for something along the lines of a druids mushroom at full power. Maybe make it so you only use LoD when it activates @ 10 HP or something.

  6. #1026
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luqyolo View Post
    1. How will you be spending your holy power? Will you still be using EF?

    I question this because from what I can gather, you basically use EF because LoD's healing is subpar and because EF had the ability to keep IH rolling on players. With the nerf, it just seems like you have no "rewarding" ability on to which you can spend your holy power, and I completely agree with the user that mentioned that you should feel that spending your 3 holy powers should be special in the sense of having a powerful heal. Seeming as they buffed 25 man healing rain to only apply diminishing returns after 14 players, could LoD not have a similar buff. I mention this without considering the state of holy in 10 man but I would assume LoD to be stronger in 10 simply because you'll be healing 60% of the raid with it whereas in 25 man you're only healing 24% of the raid.
    Basically ideally what I would like to see is WoG/EF being used for single target healing AND as a proactive heal, and LoD for when the raid is taking damage. (In 5.3 EF is mandatory and used for all of the above situations).

    2. A couple of users mentioned a reduced cd on holy shock, or the need to have quicker and cheaper holy power generation. With the current 5.4 notes what would this imply?
    A reduced CD on holy shock is unlikely, because it would imply 1) MANY more instant heals (both HS and WoG), 2) more infusion of light procs along with the desired effect, more HP.

    As the last suggestion, and as much as I dislike touching the EF subject partly because I've grown tired of absorbs, I think EF's nerf should be completely reverted so that the HoT portion still grants IH. I still recall how paladins were powerful for progression this tier, and reverting EF would probably make them mandatory for next tier but I personally don't see a fix that would not imply a complete rework of the whole heal paradigm.
    I completely agree with this, if anything, a better solution than gutting paladins would be cutting EF HoT's IH generation by say 50%, this would still allow EF to be used as a proactive heal without gutting the class. That and make EF simply a baseline part of Holy (it is unused in Ret/Prot really at any rate) and replace it with a talent that's more on par with the other two (vomit) and amenable to Ret/Prot also.

  7. #1027
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Luq, a lot of the questions you ask (such as "Why paladins can't be classified as melee?"?, we don't know the answer. It is pretty much because the developers said so. We asked many times for it, but they responded with taking mana regen out of Seal of Insight. And on the topic of crusader strike, not only are we not classified as melee to always use it, but we aren't hit or expertise capped for crusader strike to always hit so you can't always count on it.

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by Luqyolo View Post
    First time poster in this thread and paladin forum for that matter lol
    Welcome!

    Firstly I would like to ask for a more civilized approach when responding to other users, there's no reason to answer in an aggressive manner so if you disagree with another user you either present your view or you don't post at all.
    It's no excuse, but you have to remember you're talking to a very disgruntled sector of the community here, and when people come here posing as constructive and then end up just arguing and wasting time because they cant and refuse to understand the issues, it can be utterly frustrating. (one has even resorted to pm'ing people to get a rise now we ignored him here)

    On to the main argument, I've been following this thread for quite a while and there has been some interesting discussion. Personally I'm not very experienced with 5.3 holy paladins as I've only got a blue geared alt running the occasional lfr (and rocking :P), so my opinions may be wide off the mark. Paladins are in a very awkward position in terms of healing because it seems that whilst you can "perform well", it's all thanks to the ludicrous amounts of overhealing and IH shields being placed. The EF nerf to the HoT portion not being able to roll IH on the player is a substantial nerf and it certainly does go about the issue, however this raises other issues which may or may not be related solely to holy paladins. It seems like you're forced to practice this style of healing because your genuine heals just get sniped by smart heals and absorbs.
    This is part of it, but the other part is we have no burst aoe healing for the hps not covered by asbsorbs, which every other class has. Lets say theres 500k damage, 100k is covered by absorbs, the other 400k will be healed up in a matter of seconds. In this time we'd be able to get off a prism or lh, 2xLOD and an HR if we're lucky. Or with HA perhaps a few more LoD.

    Additionally, while other classes can spam rejuv/wg/poh/chain heal/whatever for that period; unless everybody is stacked for a slow casting HR (which does less than all of these), we have to spend time 'setting up' our aoe heal. Even with HA, only 3 out of 5 gcd's will be an aoe heal. the others will be hs and cs/hr.

    1. How will you be spending your holy power? Will you still be using EF?

    I question this because from what I can gather, you basically use EF because LoD's healing is subpar and because EF had the ability to keep IH rolling on players. With the nerf, it just seems like you have no "rewarding" ability on to which you can spend your holy power, and I completely agree with the user that mentioned that you should feel that spending your 3 holy powers should be special in the sense of having a powerful heal. Seeming as they buffed 25 man healing rain to only apply diminishing returns after 14 players, could LoD not have a similar buff. I mention this without considering the state of holy in 10 man but I would assume LoD to be stronger in 10 simply because you'll be healing 60% of the raid with it whereas in 25 man you're only healing 24% of the raid.
    Unsure at this point [10m perspective]; it depends on the amount they buff LoD eventually. It's entirely possible we'll just continue to spam HR and EF for the shields we do get, maybe using 1hp LoD's to refresh the shields as much as possible.

    2. A couple of users mentioned a reduced cd on holy shock, or the need to have quicker and cheaper holy power generation. With the current 5.4 notes what would this imply?

    Obviously this question once again touches on the matter of your holy power spenders being garbage, but how would faster holy power gen help in this regard. This brings me to the subject of using CS to generate holy power. The first thing it reminds me of is mistweavers using jab to generate chi, which is personally something I enjoy but often you're not allowed to do this as paladins during encounters simply because you're classified as a "ranged healer" and therefore you are targeted by ranged abilities. If monks are exclusively a melee class and therefore the healing spec is classified as melee for all purposes, why can't holy paladins also be classified as melee? Somebody will probably have better insight on that topic but from my knowledge it makes no sense.
    We don't know why we can't be melee, the holy paladin community feels a lot of double standards are being applied with the way we are treated versus the other healers. That said, melee cs is something a lot of holydins don't like, and would like to see removed completely.

    The reason behind the 4 sec hs need to my mind is twofold. Firstly it's a good spell, it can give a useful proc too. Secondly with HS at 6 seconds, we need 2x HR (4.5s) to get off another finisher, or to use HR's twice between LOD/EF is HA is up. It just 'feels' so clunky and slow.

    As the last suggestion, and as much as I dislike touching the EF subject partly because I've grown tired of absorbs, I think EF's nerf should be completely reverted so that the HoT portion still grants IH. I still recall how paladins were powerful for progression this tier, and reverting EF would probably make them mandatory for next tier but I personally don't see a fix that would not imply a complete rework of the whole heal paradigm.
    Yea, at this point I agree. Most others probably would too.

    As I've mentioned, a healer's potential shouldn't simply be judged by their HPS, having the right cooldowns and abilities also plays a big part. Having a healer that can switch between healing and dpsing with very little to sacrifice provides a massive benefit to the raid composition in my opinion. Just as an example, my guild killed Lei shen hc for the first time with an average ilvl of around 529, and only some dpsers had the legendary meta gem. The phase 1 dps check was high, but I believe that having me and a disc priest full on dpsing was a deciding factor for pushing that requirement. As for the 2 holy paladins that were present in that kill, they weren't asked to denounce the boss, their role was to cover healing (which in all fairness isn't very high during that phase) because there's nothing else they could offer. I'm not saying you have no utility, because your Hand toolkit (although HoSac could have its shared damage component removed) and DA are already decent enough to bring to a raid, but perhaps as a future note Blizzard could consider giving every healer the ability to deal damage without a tremendous loss of mana / healing throughput.
    This is the other problem, we bring no utility that another paladin does not bring, and it's a cause of contention that every other healer has multiple throughput cd's and we have nothing.

    The final issue is probably the trinkets...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Luq, a lot of the questions you ask (such as "Why paladins can't be classified as melee?"?, we don't know the answer. It is pretty much because the developers said so. We asked many times for it, but they responded with taking mana regen out of Seal of Insight. And on the topic of crusader strike, not only are we not classified as melee to always use it, but we aren't hit or expertise capped for crusader strike to always hit so you can't always count on it.
    It's not just the insight nerf either. Every time we suggest or ask for something, they respond with a nerf to discourage it. It feels like we're being pissed on over and over.

    eg. the poor t15 set bonuses; they respond by nerfing the t14 one.
    insight, they respond by nerfing the mana

  9. #1029
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    The final issue is probably the trinkets...
    More like the one trinket. They just need to scrap it and not let it go live imo.

  10. #1030
    They have shot down any notion of changing the target caps for Holy Radiance in 25 man:

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

    @TGDLeefa We don't like non-CD AE heals with huge target caps. Trying it with HR only because we want Resto to be awesome when clumped.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    More like the one trinket. They just need to scrap it and not let it go live imo.
    trinket, trinkets! Has there been any indication at all that will happen?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    They have shot down any notion of changing the target caps for Holy Radiance in 25 man:
    Was never gonna happen. Wouldn't have been the right move anyway in my opinion.

  12. #1032
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    They have shot down any notion of changing the target caps for Holy Radiance in 25 man:
    Can you link that, please? Hard to find stuff on his twitter right now.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Can you link that, please? Hard to find stuff on his twitter right now.
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...23712455573506

    - - - Updated - - -

    @Gohon_CoA We buffed SH a lot for Holy. Looking at what we can do to SS for them.

    @Ady_Mx If the finishers aren't good, we find paladins just spam the builders and ignore the finishers, which feels bad too.

    @MrMadguy We do think AE heal spam has gotten out of control again. The healer tookit lacks depth when single target heals are ignored.

    .@MrMadguy It's challenging because every time we nerf AEs, rather than going to single-target heals, healers just feel too weak to heal.

    @Ghostcrawler Agree100%. I am growing to hate having to take EF. Every fight my top heal is an absorb. Should just play my Disc priest.
    @Touch_of_Gray99 Exactly. We don't argue it's effective. But we question whether it's really fun or fits the paladin kit.

    @Ady_Mx Paladins survived for years without hots. We don't buy that they are utterly dependent on a talent that is like a year old.

    @Touch_of_Gray99 If you recall, EF was limit one until very late in MoP beta. It's an example of a change we should not have made so late.
    @Touch_of_Gray99 Obviously had big consequences.

    @lilyriel If some paladins take EF, then that's cool. That's character differentiation. When they all have it, that's homogenization.

    @lilyriel TBH, we hear this too often from every class in the game. The paladin healing toolkit is mostly fine. EF is a crutch.

    @lilyriel Now paladins aren't perfect. No class is. But they aren't horribly off the rails either as the forums would have you believe.

    @Flabbertje1 Originally we wanted to make HTT less mandatory by having it not do bonus healing for Resto. Concluded that would never work.

    @Ghostcrawler Can you give us any insight as to what the current ideas/plans are for Guardian of the Ancients Kings (Holy)?
    @JT_Hero We want it to key off of AE heals in addition to ST heals. Less use these days in that much ST healing on one target.

  14. #1034
    well he is in for a big surprise

  15. #1035
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Pretty much everything he posts shows he isn't in touch with the game. Saying the paladin toolkit is fine especially shows this.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    A spell with a cast time. You realize our main aoe is HR with a slow cast time.


    In other news: Reglitch has stopped posting in this thread it seems but he has decided to start messaging people instead.
    And where did I write HR has no cast time? I only stated that Chi Burst is cast time spell. Stop treating every poster like he loves seeing your class in troubles, I only wanted to correct wrong assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    I wrote instant on demand aoe not instant cast :P. Renewing Mist for example while being instant cast is not instant on demand aoe is it
    Chi Burst isn't istant on demand anyway because it has a cast time, so it doesn't heal right away, and you need to be positioned correctly, doesn't seem "on demand" to me. SCK too, it's a channel so it's like a HoT.
    Last edited by masteryuri; 2013-07-13 at 08:59 PM.

  17. #1037
    High Overlord Zarry's Avatar
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    @Ghostcrawler Will we see any disc nerfs at any point? Or do you see them as being balanced right now (lol)

    @FabioSI91736917 We don't think the shields, CDs or Atonement are OP alone. The package makes them very versatile.

    Also tweeted him.. Seeing if priests were getting any kinda work.. He seems to think they are balanced.. This just makes me lol.. We go trough a complete revamp of talents spells etc.. Because they dont like how we heal and because they think IH is 2 good..

    But they leave the most Op healer wit no changes.. I mean what are they thinking..

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Chi Burst isn't istant on demand anyway because it has a cast time, so it doesn't heal right away, and you need to be positioned correctly, doesn't seem "on demand" to me. SCK too, it's a channel so it's like a HoT.
    I hope you're joking. CB has a <1 sec cast time and SCK ticks every .5 seconds... Both are "on demand" and may as well be instant for all of the purpose they provide.

  19. #1039
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Add in him saying that increasing the target cap for LoD would just "lead to priests, monks and druids wanting their AE heals uncapped as well b/c now they're left out".

  20. #1040
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Add in him saying that increasing the target cap for LoD would just "lead to priests, monks and druids wanting their AE heals uncapped as well b/c now they're left out".
    Well, they already broke that barrier with the special snowflake shaman treatment.

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